If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

[authentic]

I honestly don't know why it's so hard to believe that Bobby Orr, generally recognized as one of the fastest skaters of all time, could hold his own against McDavid. I mean, honestly, I was a little surprised that the times measured on those videos were so close, mostly because I think McDavid is probably the fastest skater I've seen in my lifetime and Orr is weighed down by '70s era equipment and skates, but the narrative that Orr was in a league of his own in terms of his skating ability seems to hold.

Yet, in that same clip at 6:50, the one that apparently proves Orr was as fast as McDavid, we see the Minnesota player keep up with him every inch of the ice from blue line to blue line, despite gliding for the last few feet of it!

Please tell me you guys can see something wrong with that, and that those clips do not prove in anyway Orr was as fast as McDavid?

 

[jgatie]

Yet, in that same clip at 6:50, the one that apparently proves Orr was as fast as McDavid, we see the Minnesota player keep up with him every inch of the ice from blue line to blue line, despite gliding for the last few feet of it!

Please tell me you guys can see something wrong with that, and that those clips do not prove in anyway Orr was as fast as McDavid?

Fact: At least one clip of Bobby Orr used for analysis has a voice commentary.

Fact: That voice commentary is not sped up in any way, and yet it still stays in pace with the video.

So first you deal with those facts and tell me how a clip can be sped up and not have the voice be similarly sped up and yet still keep pace with the action? Answer that one before your flood this place again with your rank speculation.

 

[86Habs]

Yet, in that same clip at 6:50, the one that apparently proves Orr was as fast as McDavid, we see the Minnesota player keep up with him every inch of the ice from blue line to blue line, despite gliding for the last few feet of it!

Please tell me you guys can see something wrong with that, and that those clips do not prove in anyway Orr was as fast as McDavid?

The Minnesota player was hustling like his life was depending on it until he peeled away as he approached the blue line. Its quite obvious Orr had the more powerful skating stride of the two players and that over a longer course and equal start times/positions Orr would quite easily be the faster skater. Personally, I don't think the video proves that Orr was "faster" than McDavid...I mean, limited samples and all of that. I think what it does prove is that Orr, with modern equipment and skates, could at the very least hang with the upper echelon of today's skaters. Have humans really developed the ability to move their legs faster over the last 47 years?

 

[authentic]

The Minnesota player was hustling like his life was depending on it until he peeled away as he approached the blue line. Its quite obvious Orr had the more powerful skating stride of the two players and that over a longer course and equal start times/positions Orr would quite easily be the faster skater. Personally, I don't think the video proves that Orr was "faster" than McDavid...I mean, limited samples and all of that. I think what it does prove is that Orr, with modern equipment and skates, could at the very least hang with the upper echelon of today's skaters. Have humans really developed the ability to move their legs faster over the last 47 years?

No I agree with you, I only have problems with those who are saying this means he was as fast as McDavid, because I've watched enough older and new games to tell you he literally wasn't. Jgatie seems to be missing my point with that post, and it's that if those clips prove he was as fast as McDavid, which he seems to believe, then that Minnesota player was also as fast as McDavid, and that also means that Orr was then not in his own realm of skating even for his own time. Also, there was one player who played for Montreal in the 60s, Yvan Cournoyer I believe it was, and even watching older Bobby Hull games from the 60s, they both appeared to be to be as fast or even faster than Orr. Not that they had his skills with the puck though at high speeds, or the smarts, similar to other players compared to McDavid today.

 

[authentic]

Fact: At least one clip of Bobby Orr used for analysis has a voice commentary.

Fact: That voice commentary is not sped up in any way, and yet it still stays in pace with the video.

So first you deal with those facts and tell me how a clip can be sped up and not have the voice be similarly sped up and yet still keep pace with the action? Answer that one before your flood this place again with your rank speculation.

Some of the frames are still a bit choppy that's all I'm saying, and I hope you know those clips do not prove Orr was as fast as McDavid, if you don't then you can't be helped any further.

 

[jgatie]

Some of the frames are still a bit choppy that's all I'm saying, and I hope you know those clips do not prove Orr was as fast as McDavid, if you don't then you can't be helped any further.

The videos certainly prove that blue line to blue line, corrected for neutral zone size differences, Bobby Orr was clocked as within a fraction of the speed of McDavid in at least 3 videos, with Orr carrying the puck and McDavid not carrying the puck. Small sample, but it certainly is leagues ahead of the proof you've supplied that he wasn't as fast as McDavid (because your "proof" consists of you repeating what amounts to "He can't be as fast as McDavid!!" over and over again.)

But I guess that's as close as you will ever come to admitting you are wrong about those videos, so I'll take it. Humility is something that comes with age (not to mention getting your ass kicked repeatedly by people who know better than you).

 

[86Habs]

No I agree with you, I only have problems with those who are saying this means he was as fast as McDavid, because I've watched enough older and new games to tell you he literally wasn't. Jgatie seems to be missing my point with that post, and it's that if those clips prove he was as fast as McDavid, which he seems to believe, then that Minnesota player was also as fast as McDavid, and that also means that Orr was then not in his own realm of skating even for his own time. Also, there was one player who played for Montreal in the 60s, Yvan Cournoyer I believe it was, and even watching older Bobby Hull games from the 60s, they both appeared to be to be as fast or even faster than Orr. Not that they had his skills with the puck though at high speeds, or the smarts, similar to other players compared to McDavid today.

Cournoyer was nicknamed "The Roadrunner" and he, along with Hull, are also considered to be among the fastest skaters of that era. That's not really a shocking assertion on your part, honestly. With Orr its not only about the top end, straight ahead speed; its about the acceleration, change of pace, lateral movement ability, edgework, and the ability to do all of that with the puck. Again, with modern skates and modern equipment and considering that McDavid has God-tier skating ability I don't see an issue with believing that Orr would be among the fastest skaters in the NHL if he was dropped in the current league tomorrow; he'd almost certainly be among the best technical skaters. I personally don't think the videos prove it definitely one way or another, as blue line to blue line is a fairly short distance and the respective players started off at different speeds and Orr didn't necessarily skate in a straight line, but it is a valuable data point in my view.

 

[puckpilot]

24 fps is the speed of film. 30 fps is the speed of standard interlaced SDTV of that era. Considering there is no way a live sports broadcast could ever be shot on film, there is no way those clips are 24 fps. Even if they were, they woukld be converted by interpolation to the 30 fps needed for TV, with no choppyness or speeding up. They are 30 fps, as stated by the OP in his analysis.

Nice try though!

Thanks for this, sir.

Oh laugh all you want, I still find it equally funny you guys do not see with your own eyes any choppyness of the frames in those videos. I guess eyesight does get progressively further away from 20/20 as you age, but come on... let's not act completely oblivious here.

So, I'm going to take some time away from counting my toes and drooling and ask this. If that footage is sped up, by how much do you think it's sped up? There's a point were it becomes ridiculously obvious.

If you goto youtube and speed up footage by 25% it becomes obviously very jittery. From my experience, and I'm no video expert, things become very evident somewhere around 110%. So let's say for the sake of argument that it's sped up by 10%--it isn't, but let's pretend it is. How does that change the results?

A rush from the 6:50 mark 54 frames 1.8 seconds = 35.35 km/hr. So reduce that speed by 10% and it becomes 32.14 km/hr. Compare that to McDavid rushing up the ice with the puck which clocked at 32.8 km/hr.

The results end up pretty much the same. Orr's speed carrying the puck matches up with McDavid's speed. And even though it is slightly slower, it still proves my point Orr could skate with the best the NHL has to offer today.

Now back to sucking my thumb and counting my toes. Does anyone know what come after 4? I can't seem to come up with anything.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Cournoyer was nicknamed "The Roadrunner" and he, along with Hull, are also considered to be among the fastest skaters of that era. That's not really a shocking assertion on your part, honestly. With Orr its not only about the top end, straight ahead speed; its about the acceleration, change of pace, lateral movement ability, edgework, and the ability to do all of that with the puck. Again, with modern skates and modern equipment and considering that McDavid has God-tier skating ability I don't see an issue with believing that Orr would be among the fastest skaters in the NHL if he was dropped in the current league tomorrow; he'd almost certainly be among the best technical skaters. I personally don't think the videos prove it definitely one way or another, as blue line to blue line is a fairly short distance and the respective players started off at different speeds and Orr didn't necessarily skate in a straight line, but it is a valuable data point in my view.

Was just thinking the same thing. Hull was called the Golden Jet for a reason and for top end straight ahead speed, him and Cournoyer off the top of my head were the two fastest skaters of their era. Orr was the best skater overall though, even though his top speed may have been slower.

 

[authentic]

Was just thinking the same thing. Hull was called the Golden Jet for a reason and for top end straight ahead speed, him and Cournoyer off the top of my head were the two fastest skaters of their era. Orr was the best skater overall though, even though his top speed may have been slower.

Good so I'm not crazy and my point stands, Orr was not in a league of his own when it came to skating ability.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Good so I'm not crazy and my point stands, Orr was not in a league of his own when it came to skating ability.

I said Orr was the best skater overall. Is that what you took away from that?

 

[authentic]

I said Orr was the best skater overall. Is that what you took away from that?

You can still be the best skater but not be in a "league of your own"...

 

[Gary Nylund]

You can still be the best skater but not be in a "league of your own"...

That's a subjective term and not the subject of this thread.

 

[86Habs]

You can still be the best skater but not be in a "league of your own"...

In terms of using your skating ability to impact the game, you probably can be in a league of your own. Cournoyer and Hull were fast skaters, maybe slightly faster than Orr at the very top end, but were both wingers and didn't have the opportunity (or reason) to handle the puck, or change direction or pace as much as Orr. That's why Orr was moved to defense in the first place; he could use his skating and puckhandling ability to have a greater impact on the game from that position.

 

[jgatie]

Good so I'm not crazy and my point stands, Orr was not in a league of his own when it came to skating ability.

Jesus dude, it's not even about the point of the thread anymore, it's all about you being right. Which is hysterical, because nobody in this thread has had their "facts" proven wrong more than you.

 

[Mbraunm]

In terms of top end speed, I believe that Hagelin has been tested as the fasted skater of all time (during a game) at just over 37 km per hour (https://www.sny.tv/rangers/news/read-carl-hagelin-has-the-highest-top-speed-in-the-nhl/149656432) which is faster than Orr who according to frame analysis topped 35 km/hr. The only NHL player who could boast a faster timing is Bobby Hull, who apparently tested at 29.2 miles/hr (+|- 10%) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hull). So Orr still doesn't test faster than the fastest timed skater in all era's. That being stated, I am sure people will debate whether or not Orr could beat Hagelin's time with modern equipment and training, although those variables are overrated in my opinion.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If nothing else came out of this thread, the analysis of Orr's skating speed is pretty fantastic.

It's actually quite amazing to realize there were at least some players in the 1970s who skated as fast as modern stars, even in spite of all the limiting factors.

 

[Canadiens1958]

True

If nothing else came out of this thread, the analysis of Orr's skating speed is pretty fantastic.

It's actually quite amazing to realize there were at least some players in the 1970s who skated as fast as modern stars, even in spite of all the limiting factors.

Especially given that it is not known how deep into the shift the timed sequence happened.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Especially given that it is not known how deep into the shift the timed sequence happened.

That would also go against the young uns who say that today's cyborg players have amazing superior stamina...

 

[Laineux]

In terms of top end speed, I believe that Hagelin has been tested as the fasted skater of all time (during a game) at just over 37 km per hour (https://www.sny.tv/rangers/news/read-carl-hagelin-has-the-highest-top-speed-in-the-nhl/149656432) which is faster than Orr who according to frame analysis topped 35 km/hr. The only NHL player who could boast a faster timing is Bobby Hull, who apparently tested at 29.2 miles/hr (+|- 10%) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hull). So Orr still doesn't test faster than the fastest timed skater in all era's. That being stated, I am sure people will debate whether or not Orr could beat Hagelin's time with modern equipment and training, although those variables are overrated in my opinion.

One would have to seriously question the legitimacy of Bobby Hull skating 47km/h if Hagelin's top speed is 37km/h.

Like that would totally, 100%, be completely impossible.

It would be basically the same as claiming that there was this one guy who recorded 7.5 seconds on a 100 meter dash 50 years ago.

 

[BruinDust]

If nothing else came out of this thread, the analysis of Orr's skating speed is pretty fantastic.

It's actually quite amazing to realize there were at least some players in the 1970s who skated as fast as modern stars, even in spite of all the limiting factors.

Can you imagine a prime Orr with two good knees and modern skate technology?

Good lord.

 

[jgatie]

One would have to seriously question the legitimacy of Bobby Hull skating 47km/h if Hagelin's top speed is 37km/h.

Like that would totally, 100%, be completely impossible.

It would be basically the same as claiming that there was this one guy who recorded 7.5 seconds on a 100 meter dash 50 years ago.

I find the stories told about Bobby Hull to be . . . uhh . . . slightly exaggerated. Legend has his slap shot clocked at 118 mph, which is basically impossible, even with the banana curves of the day.

Then again, the man was a physical beast. We have actual evidence of that fact.

 

[Laineux]

I find the stories told about Bobby Hull to be . . . uhh . . . slightly exaggerated. Legend has his slap shot clocked at 118 mph, which is basically impossible, even with the banana curves of the day.

Then again, the man was a physical beast. We have actual evidence of that fact.

I have no doubt that he could've had and probably did have a comparable speed and slapshot to the best of today, but those numbers are clearly exaggerated.

 

[Ol' Jase]

How anyone cannot realize this or argue so adamantly against this is beyond me, but this is reality right here.

Actually, it's not remotely true and there is so much evidence to contradict this assertion it's really staggering. However, being completely wilfully ignorant on the entire subject makes it easy to have the opinion you do.

 

[Micklebot]

Last season about 33 shifts per game, yielding 26:50 TOI. Given extra time on the PP so his ES shifts would be in the 0:45 range. Not very long shifts at all.

Not sure how or why Karlsson got into the conversation, but this season was a bit of an anomaly for Karlsson wrt shift length; new coach really reeled in the reigns it seems.

From NHL.com, here are his shift lengths

2011-12 0:55
2012-13 0:57
2013-14 0:56
2014-15 1:01
2015-16 1:04
2016-17 0:51

Since joining the league, NHL.com has Karlsson having the 3rd highest TOI/shift, and fourth highest TOI per game.

Now, bringing this back to Orr, I can't imagine him having difficulties adapting, he was too good not to, but I do think there would be a bit of a transition going from an era where longer shifts were the norm to a modern game with shorter shifts. In todays game, barely anyone ever cracks an average of 1 min per shift over a season (only 4 players have done it since Karlsson entered the league) but as recently as the 97-98 season, 15 players did in that one season alone (that's as far back as NHL.com goes).