Idea re taxes and salary cap

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
You’re continuing to use false equivalencies because (1) and (2) per you previous post are different players on different teams in different countries where (1) plays in the U.S. and (2) in Canada.

And even then your RCA math is wrong.

huh? A free agent can choose to go to either. You can either choose to play for X amount take home in your pocket in tampa. Or B try to break even by jumping through a whole bunch of hoops using an RCA.

to go the RCA route you have to hope that the laws don’t change. You want to live in the Bahamas etc. That’s just to break even

regardless. You study the CBA. You see how involved players and management are in this side of the game.

I am simply arguing the point that has been provided by multiple NHL agents players accountants and managers. There are tons of examples.


are they wrong? Why are they so sure? We have all seen plenty of examples of professionals citing take home pay advantages.

where has a player/gm come out and said “no I took less because of an RCA”? No or taxes don’t matter due to RCAs We have one agent who is 2 weeks off a colouring contest. He was disagreeing with another agent and a president/gm.

why is the RCA not mentioned by NHL players/coaches like taxes?
 

DudeWhereIsMakar

Bergevin sent me an offer sheet
Apr 25, 2014
16,013
7,096
Winnipeg
I had this idea for a very long time. Just so it doesn't make a difference as to where a player should or could potentially sign. I think the only pardons should be ones who sign a contract prior to if the warning happens.

Teams like Vegas, Dallas, Nashville, Florida and Tampa might get screwed if they aren't pardoned. But it goes to show how noticeable this issue is considering some of those teams made it further than they should have.
 
Last edited:

TOGuy14

Registered User
Dec 30, 2010
12,068
3,579
Toronto
People always say local tax doesn't matter then comment in a player signing thread: "WOW ANOTHER STEAL FOR X TEAM, THEIR GM MUST BE SO GOOD"
 

kgboomer

Registered User
Nov 12, 2014
1,309
1,020
Can't have it both ways.... electing politicians promising to tax the rich more for social programs, and then complaining the taxes are too high for our favorite team or players not wanting to play there because of taxes. It's not the job of any pro league to fix what the whims of politicians or folks electing them to rise taxes at any time.
 

Legionnaire

Help On The Way
Jul 10, 2002
44,253
3,964
LA-LA Land
Can't have it both ways.... electing politicians promising to tax the rich more for social programs, and then complaining the taxes are too high for our favorite team or players not wanting to play there because of taxes. It's not the job of any pro league to fix what the whims of politicians or folks electing them to rise taxes at any time.

Exactly.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,611
13,128
South Mountain
huh? A free agent can choose to go to either. You can either choose to play for X amount take home in your pocket in tampa. Or B try to break even by jumping through a whole bunch of hoops using an RCA.

to go the RCA route you have to hope that the laws don’t change. You want to live in the Bahamas etc. That’s just to break even

regardless. You study the CBA. You see how involved players and management are in this side of the game.

I am simply arguing the point that has been provided by multiple NHL agents players accountants and managers. There are tons of examples.


are they wrong? Why are they so sure? We have all seen plenty of examples of professionals citing take home pay advantages.

where has a player/gm come out and said “no I took less because of an RCA”? No or taxes don’t matter due to RCAs We have one agent who is 2 weeks off a colouring contest. He was disagreeing with another agent and a president/gm.

why is the RCA not mentioned by NHL players/coaches like taxes?

Your math is completely flawed. I'm going to try and work through your own numbers you've posted, feel free to add any corrections.

You state player in Tampa takes home $10m at 37% tax rate. That requires a salary of $10m/(100%-37%) = $15.9m salary.

Yet you keep using $10m salary as the baseline for the Toronto player when you should be using $15.9m instead. Let's say Toronto player with $15.9m compensation is able to put $12m of that compensation into the RCA and takes home 50% of the remaining $3.9m for $1.95m in pocket and $12m tax deferred. That deferred money could eventually be taxed at %'s as low as 10-15% depending on nationality, where they setup residence, and could ultimately lead to a net future take home for the tax year of $12m+, much better then Florida.

Of course there are a ton of nuances and details in this tax planning, but you don't seem to be interested in understanding them, nor discussing them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nbwingsfan

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
1.) MANY people are clearly saying there is not an advantage. They are saying that putting your money in an RCA neutralizes the advantage

2.) what you aren’t understanding is that in a free market system. There is NO reason to artificially impose limits on salary/money/endorsement/weather or whatever
Ridiculous thing you want to shift the goalposts to.

there is NO reason for a salary cap. There is also no reason without a cap that other teams shouldn’t have to over pay to make up the net pay.

the difference here is the NHL has artificially made the cap. So now that they have artificially made this rule. It has to be fair.

if they make an endorsement cap it has to be fair.
So again, you think its fair that Toronto could spend $120M+ on players solely due to their fanbase while a team like Arizona or Florida can only spend $60-70M? Thats a level playing field?

Sounds like a fan making excuses for his team's lack of success to me
 
  • Like
Reactions: kgboomer

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
So again, you think its fair that Toronto could spend $120M+ on players solely due to their fanbase while a team like Arizona or Florida can only spend $60-70M? Thats a level playing field?

Sounds like a fan making excuses for his team's lack of success to me

it’s not about what I think is a level playing field. I am saying that when the NHL decides to arbitrarily level just one aspect of that playing field

they have to make that artficial leveling of the playing field fair.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
Your math is completely flawed. I'm going to try and work through your own numbers you've posted, feel free to add any corrections.

You state player in Tampa takes home $10m at 37% tax rate. That requires a salary of $10m/(100%-37%) = $15.9m salary.

Yet you keep using $10m salary as the baseline for the Toronto player when you should be using $15.9m instead. Let's say Toronto player with $15.9m compensation is able to put $12m of that compensation into the RCA and takes home 50% of the remaining $3.9m for $1.95m in pocket and $12m tax deferred. That deferred money could eventually be taxed at %'s as low as 10-15% depending on nationality, where they setup residence, and could ultimately lead to a net future take home for the tax year of $12m+, much better then Florida.

Of course there are a ton of nuances and details in this tax planning, but you don't seem to be interested in understanding them, nor discussing them.


sorry why can’t I use 10 million as an example? If a player gets paid 5-10-15 million.... it’s still the same principle.

Option A: take home money advantage. Today. Money in pocket today.

Option B: much less take home money today. To TRY to mitigate some of that damage you have to

-lock up most of your money
-decide on where you want to move in 15 years....when you may have endorsement/employment opportunities/young family.
-pray the laws don’t change
- be subject to back taxes at any time.

that doesn’t sound at all equal to me. The vast majority of NHL players don’t make marner money. They have greater expenses then we do. The ones who do are unlikely to want to drive a civic and live in a townhouse. They probably want to spend/have their money now. Rather than hope to get it years from now

The fact is we can sit here all day as people who don’t have this money and aren’t making these decisions. But it’s theory vs practice..

there are volumes of NHL players coaches GMs accountants and agents who agree with me
That

1.) no state taxes are a huge advantage
2.) we see no state tax teams getting much better deals, that often provide the exact same take home for less.

one agent has agreed with the RCA model. He is “controversial” at best, and most of his clients just so happen to be in tax free markets.

honestly. If anyone can really argue that they can make a convincing plan for high market teams to get tax free cap hits.... how much would Toronto/Montreal pay for that? Why do they not know about it.

the leafs literally own the raptors. Who were banned from this RCA strategy. So they obviously know about it. Why can’t they use it? Wouldn’t the biased Toronto media be going on about how RCAs allow players to make more?

NHL players who played in Toronto and low tax markets are on the radio here every day. Many have talked about how much more they made in Florida etc.

not one has ever said that they were able to use RCA to bridge the gap...... why ?
 
Last edited:

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
it’s not about what I think is a level playing field. I am saying that when the NHL decides to arbitrarily level just one aspect of that playing field

they have to make that artficial leveling of the playing field fair.
They are.

Theyre saying "this is the max ANYONE can spend".

Will some teams have a slight advantage because of taxes? Sure.

Will some teams still have advantage because of prestige? Sure.

Will some teams still have an advantage due to sponsorships? Sure.

Will some teams still have an advantage due to location? Sure.

But this is by FAR the most even way to allow each team the same (more or less) opportunity to win.

Its not the leagues fault the Leafs cant manage a team properly
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
People always say local tax doesn't matter then comment in a player signing thread: "WOW ANOTHER STEAL FOR X TEAM, THEIR GM MUST BE SO GOOD"
Sometimes yes. Sometimes teams are just actually good at signing players.

Sometimes the Leafs get players just because theyre located in Toronto.

It seems to be the fans of teams who keep being disappointments who like to say its only because of taxes that the other teams win
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
They are.

Theyre saying "this is the max ANYONE can spend".

Will some teams have a slight advantage because of taxes? Sure.

Will some teams still have advantage because of prestige? Sure.

Will some teams still have an advantage due to sponsorships? Sure.

Will some teams still have an advantage due to location? Sure.

But this is by FAR the most even way to allow each team the same (more or less) opportunity to win.

Its not the leagues fault the Leafs cant manage a team properly

1.) why is this by far the best system?

wouldn’t an improved system that accounts for tax advantages in a system that was imposed to make things fair be better?

should we not look for improvements?

2.) shouldn’t teams that are being done a massive favour by the salary cap that allows them
To compete be interested in providing fairness? Especially when they need teams to support
The cap to keep the lights on?

3.) you don’t seem to be interested in the system itself. You seem to be interested in “well
It hurts the leafs so good”
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
1.) why is this by far the best system?

wouldn’t an improved system that accounts for tax advantages in a system that was imposed to make things fair be better?

should we not look for improvements?

2.) shouldn’t teams that are being done a massive favour by the salary cap that allows them
To compete be interested in providing fairness? Especially when they need teams to support
The cap to keep the lights on?

3.) you don’t seem to be interested in the system itself. You seem to be interested in “well
It hurts the leafs so good”
Why should it only be taxes that are accounted for? Why not the 200 different benefits that various teams have be accounted for also?
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
Why should it only be taxes that are accounted for? Why not the 200 different benefits that various teams have be accounted for also?

because that’s intrinsic to the cap. You can argue anything could be changed ie

-why not 3 on 3 all the time.
-why can’t nets be bigger.
-why can’t players wear rocket skates.

What they should or should not control is a different issue. This is the issue that they have decided to control.
So now it has to be fair.

if you want to decide on 3 on 3. Fine. But don’t have some teams have 4 players.

if you want to decide on 5 foot nets. Fine. But don’t let some play with 4.

If you want to decide on a. Cap. Fine. But don’t allow unfair advantages through taxes.
 

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
26,441
13,732
Why should it only be taxes that are accounted for? Why not the 200 different benefits that various teams have be accounted for also?

Because poster won’t accept it, regardless that’s it’s been proven a hundred times over, it’s blinders, you show poster in black and white, just totally ignores points.

In regards to the other 200 benefits, replies with 3 on 3 hockey, what the hec is that lol.

Why is it only Leafs complaining, it’s because Dubas handed out money like candy to a kid,
 
  • Like
Reactions: nbwingsfan

SirQuacksALot

A Garibaldi in Kelp
Mar 16, 2010
7,635
882
Fairness would be the Leafs dealing with a bad cap situation after handing out bad contracts. Like the other teams do when they hand out bad contracts. I mean, Anaheim is nearly at the cap and this team suuuucks. In fact, all three CA teams are bad right now. We also pay higher taxes in California, and our cost of living is insane as well. There are no HF threads arguing the Ducks should get extra cap space because the team isn't as good as the fans want it to be, or that LA should get some because Dustin Brown.

The Leafs are pretty good, and maybe the reason they can't get over the hump is that their lack of cap space prevents them from signing depth players needed for those deep playoff runs, but it's not like Dubas had the cap sprung on him with no forewarning. It's been in place since 2005. He offered those beefy contracts, now he's got to work with them. It is in no way unfair to expect the Leafs to follow the rules they agreed to, unless you're so horribly biased that equality feels like oppression.

Do taxes mean that a player takes home less pay in Toronto than in Vegas, provided they have the same contract? Sure. Is Toronto the highest taxed NHL market? It is not. The Leafs are at no special disadvantage, yet they're the only team that inspires this kind of "proposal" from a small but extremely vocal corner of its fan base.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
because that’s intrinsic to the cap. You can argue anything could be changed ie

-why not 3 on 3 all the time.
-why can’t nets be bigger.
-why can’t players wear rocket skates.

What they should or should not control is a different issue. This is the issue that they have decided to control.
So now it has to be fair.

if you want to decide on 3 on 3. Fine. But don’t have some teams have 4 players.

if you want to decide on 5 foot nets. Fine. But don’t let some play with 4.

If you want to decide on a. Cap. Fine. But don’t allow unfair advantages through taxes.
What :laugh:

Please show me the difference between a player technically making more money through "taxes" versus a player making more money through sponsorship opportunities in Toronto versus say Columbus?
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
What :laugh:

Please show me the difference between a player technically making more money through "taxes" versus a player making more money through sponsorship opportunities in Toronto versus say Columbus?

Oh sweet lord. Let’s go slow.

1.) there are a series of inequalities that exist in business/markets etc. Right?

2.) the NHL did not choose to artificially cap any of those things. They did not cap weather or endorsements or anything like that.

3.) the NHL chose to artificially create “fairness” by introducing a salary cap. This levels the playing field in the ONE area they chose to artificially do so.

4.) Now that you decided to limit teams to make it fair. You have to.... wait for it.... make it fair. The obvious structural inequalities in this system are not fair. They should work to improve the system that they made

5.) whataboutism about other inequalities is ridiculous and outside the point. If they choose to make an endorsement cap. Make it fair. If they choose to make a weather cap. Make it fair.

this isn’t hard.

the league in 2004....

“This isn’t fair. We need to make this one and only thing fair. Yes there are other differences but we need to make this one specific area fair”

creates an arbitrary system that isn’t fair, just to the other teams

“well of course this system doesn’t have to be fair.... look at all these other things!”
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
Oh sweet lord. Let’s go slow.

1.) there are a series of inequalities that exist in business/markets etc. Right?

2.) the NHL did not choose to artificially cap any of those things. They did not cap weather or endorsements or anything like that.

3.) the NHL chose to artificially create “fairness” by introducing a salary cap. This levels the playing field in the ONE area they chose to artificially do so.

4.) Now that you decided to limit teams to make it fair. You have to.... wait for it.... make it fair. The obvious structural inequalities in this system are not fair. They should work to improve the system that they made

5.) whataboutism about other inequalities is ridiculous and outside the point. If they choose to make an endorsement cap. Make it fair. If they choose to make a weather cap. Make it fair.

this isn’t hard.

the league in 2004....

“This isn’t fair. We need to make this one and only thing fair. Yes there are other differences but we need to make this one specific area fair”

creates an arbitrary system that isn’t fair, just to the other teams

“well of course this system doesn’t have to be fair.... look at all these other things!”
Sigh...

Lets put it this way.

Player X signs for $10M a year with Toronto. Brings home $7M but makes $2M a year in sponsorships

Player Y signs for $10M a year in say Tampa but brings home $9M a year with zero sponsorship opportunities.

In your crazy world you only want to give Toronto thr advantage despite both players bringing home the same amount of money in the end?

Give it a rest kid, youre embarrassing yourself in this thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ted Hoffman

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
Sigh...

Lets put it this way.

Player X signs for $10M a year with Toronto. Brings home $7M but makes $2M a year in sponsorships

Player Y signs for $10M a year in say Tampa but brings home $9M a year with zero sponsorship opportunities.

In your crazy world you only want to give Toronto thr advantage despite both players bringing home the same amount of money in the end?

Give it a rest kid, youre embarrassing yourself in this thread.


Embarrassing whataboutism. The NHL was free to negotiate an endorsement cap at any time. They didn’t. They negotiated a salary cap.

And no

endorsement “opportunities” which are outside of the CBA and are not gauranteed contracts.... which also involve extra work. Are not the same as gauranteed salary

1.) if they do Make an endorsement cap. Fine. Make it fair.
2.) they did make a salary cap. Make it fair.


“Well we need to create a fair cap... until it’s not fair. That’s ok because other things aren’t fair” is a really silly argument.
 

ClydeLee

Registered User
Mar 23, 2012
12,323
5,813
Embarrassing whataboutism. The NHL was free to negotiate an endorsement cap at any time. They didn’t. They negotiated a salary cap.

And no

endorsement “opportunities” which are outside of the CBA and are not gauranteed contracts.... which also involve extra work. Are not the same as gauranteed salary

1.) if they do Make an endorsement cap. Fine. Make it fair.
2.) they did make a salary cap. Make it fair.


“Well we need to create a fair cap... until it’s not fair. That’s ok because other things aren’t fair” is a really silly argument.
Somehow you think making an adjustment just based on tax is sensible but nothing else? How would that in your mind make it fair.

What of they did but better weather locations still got better contracts signed? Wouldn't it still be unfair and need a condition?

It would be silly just as any additional exception would be. Learn to market your organizations better or provide more than the competitors if tax disadvantages is hurting you as a team ownership.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nbwingsfan

Golden_Jet

Registered User
Sep 21, 2005
26,441
13,732
Do Canadian teams have an unfair advantage, they do
But that’s more about a 33% difference in the dollar exchange, then taxes, tax differences can be made up in other ways, the exchange can’t.
 

nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
22,298
16,479
Embarrassing whataboutism. The NHL was free to negotiate an endorsement cap at any time. They didn’t. They negotiated a salary cap.

And no

endorsement “opportunities” which are outside of the CBA and are not gauranteed contracts.... which also involve extra work. Are not the same as gauranteed salary

1.) if they do Make an endorsement cap. Fine. Make it fair.
2.) they did make a salary cap. Make it fair.


“Well we need to create a fair cap... until it’s not fair. That’s ok because other things aren’t fair” is a really silly argument.
Youre right, they made a salary cap and every team HAS THE SAME CAP.

If a player signs a $10M contract in Vegas and then is traded to Toronto, does his cap now go up to $12M, or does it stay at $10M?

Once again, a fan looking for excuses why his team isnt having any success. How come other teams have no problem going far in the playoffs or winning the cup without this apparent huge advantage of taxes?
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Sponsor
Mar 4, 2004
29,999
29,823
Oh sweet lord. Let’s go slow.

1.) there are a series of inequalities that exist in business/markets etc. Right?

2.) the NHL did not choose to artificially cap any of those things. They did not cap weather or endorsements or anything like that.

3.) the NHL chose to artificially create “fairness” by introducing a salary cap. This levels the playing field in the ONE area they chose to artificially do so.

4.) Now that you decided to limit teams to make it fair. You have to.... wait for it.... make it fair. The obvious structural inequalities in this system are not fair. They should work to improve the system that they made

5.) whataboutism about other inequalities is ridiculous and outside the point. If they choose to make an endorsement cap. Make it fair. If they choose to make a weather cap. Make it fair.

this isn’t hard.

the league in 2004....

“This isn’t fair. We need to make this one and only thing fair. Yes there are other differences but we need to make this one specific area fair”

creates an arbitrary system that isn’t fair, just to the other teams

“well of course this system doesn’t have to be fair.... look at all these other things!”
Your premise is flawed.

The league didn't create fairness with the cap. They created cost certainty for the owners.

If it were about creating fairness then teams would have to spend the exact same amount.
 

Legion34

Registered User
Jan 24, 2006
18,997
9,018
Somehow you think making an adjustment just based on tax is sensible but nothing else? How would that in your mind make it fair.

What of they did but better weather locations still got better contracts signed? Wouldn't it still be unfair and need a condition?

It would be silly just as any additional exception would be. Learn to market your organizations better or provide more than the competitors if tax disadvantages is hurting you as a team ownership.

you can’t be serious. The whole reason we have a salary cap is because other teams can’t market their team.

Big market teams keep the lights on.

Small market teams ask for

1.) cap
2.) money because they. STILL can’t market their teams.

crying about unfair advantages when something hurts your team but ok when it helps.

you get how hypocritical and embarrassing that is right? You understand how foolish this is
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad