Proposal: I Came to Trade Gardiner Not to Bury Him

[Jeypic]

I was growing impatient with Gards during the season. He was awful in a couple of games but the kid owned it after game 7 and as such he gained my respect. IMO his performance in game #7 should not influence any plans Leafs had for Jake. Stay the course and for heaven's sake let's not Larry Murphy the kid if he remains a Leaf.

Yeh gards has left me shaking my head maybe more then any other leaf.
He makes some horrible decisions at times, that leave me just straight confused at what he’s thinking. But aside from the slightly more then occasional brain fart, he is one of our most skilled guys back there. Great skating, passing, shooting, possession.. he does a lot to help this team night in, night out.
His interview after the game left me heartbroken. He basically took all the blame for the loss.
He’s a good man. If the leafs decide to keep him, I am ok with it. He usually makes our defense better. If we trade him.. I’m ok with it too as long as we’re making improvements elsewhere to our d line. I think we have a lot of depth on the left side.. so it might make sense. I just wish he had a better game to go out on. I’ll remember him as a good leaf.

 

[francis246]

Unless you are getting a top 10 pick or OEL, we need to keep Gardiner.

You don't trade a 50 point dman who can move the puck and make stretch passes when no other defenseman on our team can. Sure Gardiner makes bad plays but he also makes a bunch of good ones.

Rielly makes a lot of the same mistakes and no one wants to trade him.

Trading Gardiner will be a huge mistake. We already have trouble making breakouts and you want to trade the one guy who is probably the best at it?

Also eveeeyome knows dman struggle in year 2. Which means dermott is going to go through some obvious growing pains next year. He is now the ready for gardiners minutes and I'm not even sure he can match the offense production. We are already going to be losing JVR's production and now you want to trade Gardiner? That is 100 points of production gone and no real replacements.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Ray Ferraro said something yesterday and I think it applies here. (i'm paraphrasing here)
In the greatest pressure your greatest deficit will be magnified.

for the Leafs (as a whole) it was defense. Defense as a 5 man unit, defense on the backend.
For Jake - it was his brain (and it's not a shot, because i think that's always been his issue). When Jake has time Jake is great. He can decide what he wants to do, and when he can do it. When Jake is pressured, Jake panics, and a lot of time he felt he didn't have time (when he did) and we saw a lot of the results.

like I said. the kid is who he is. I don't think there is this higher tier the guy can climb. He's a great skater, capable of putting up a lot of points who should be buried. He's not gonna be buried here, s he's playing more than he should and when being pressured results like game seven happen (maybe not as badly but they do happen). i don't think it 'influences' but i think it should 'crystalize' what they've got.

Thanks for the reply, heard that Ferraro comment yesterday as well and thought it pretty succinctly summed things up. I know he was referring to defending as a unit but to me it could also be applied to Gardiner as an individual which is along the lines I'm thinking when I say that yes its one game...BUT this is a version of an issue he has dealt with his whole career and under the greatest pressure his greatest weakness did get exploited badly.

 

[Daisy Jane]

He has been a top 4 guy for many years now with good to great results. You might as well argue that Kadri's shot is too weak for him to score 30.

i always have to ask this question
is he a top guy because it's the Leafs and we don't have anything else
or is he a top guy if you switched players anywhere in the league.

because one's an apple and the other is an orange.

 

[Cams]

Moving on would likely be good for both the team and the player if the right deal is out there. I disagree with those who say he only had a bad game 7 (boy was it bad!). There were other plays in this series where he was bad too. Of course he made some good plays as well. There were 2 identical pinches he made on the left boards at the line. One resulted in a Matthews goal, the other....again, it was identical....ended up in the Leafs net. But let's be realistic/objective here..... he was a big reason they lost game 7, and also put the puck on Bergeron's stick in 2013 game 7 disaster too. I'm not asking him, or any other player to be perfect, it won't happen. However.... I do think it's time to move on. If the Leafs can add John Carlson, and with the emergence of Dermott and soon Liljgren, Gardiner becomes redundant. Need more of a physical presence on the back end too. Fancy analytics aside, the eye test in this case is a failure. Can he (after a 50 pt season and these fancy stats) be turned into picks and maybe replacement for JVR/Bozak/Komarov, or some package the returns a 3/4 line C? Remember...NHL GM's aren't going to look at a deal based on 1 game are they? It's something that should be looked at. Keep in mind...Hunter knows Carlson well for recruiting him for London.

 

[BlueBaron]

This seems like the best time to trade him. We are about to enter a transition year with kids filling a lot of spots as the old guys move on, I don't think any of us is worried about the forward group so while they are seasoning for a year we should sort this blueline out.

If we assume the year after next our D core is Rielly, Dermott and Zaitsev that tells me we need 1, maybe 2 top 4 RHD, depending on Zaitsev's progress. I'd like to see Gardiner moved and those assets and cap space added to the pile to get a top pairing RHD.

Ideally Timmy takes a spot but how soon he is ready for a top 4 role is the question. Regardless we need a guy who is very strong at the defensive side of the game who can also pass. Please Doughty come home!

 

[francis246]

i always have to ask this question
is he a top guy because it's the Leafs and we don't have anything else
or is he a top guy if you switched players anywhere in the league.

because one's an apple and the other is an orange.

Gardiner would be a 2nd pairing guy on many teams. Hell on Montreal I'd argue he'd be first. My thing is, if we can get a top 10 pick for Gardiner sure that's good but that might be an indication we are making a huge mistake. If teams are willing to give that up does that not say a lot about him as a player?

 

[Nithoniniel]

i always have to ask this question
is he a top guy because it's the Leafs and we don't have anything else
or is he a top guy if you switched players anywhere in the league.

because one's an apple and the other is an orange.

Yeah sure. It's a combination. But what matters is that he has had that role for us, and things have gone well for us with him on the ice then. I don't see how he can be too dumb to do well in that role, when he's had that role for years and done well already.

Gardiner would be a 2nd pairing guy on many teams. Hell on Montreal I'd argue he'd be first. My thing is, if we can get a top 10 pick for Gardiner sure that's good but that might be an indication we are making a huge mistake. If teams are willing to give that up does that not say a lot about him as a player?

Or their need. If Edmonton gives up their pick for him, it might be worth exploring. He'll be too expensive for us to retain, and getting another top prospect would make it so much easier to throw assets at a long-term option, preferably on the right side.

 

[BlueForever75]

Gardiner is a good player. He is being misused by Babcock that's all. Look at a player that played with him in college Justin Schultz. Couldn't do anything in Edmonton because like Gardiner he was misused. Goes to the Penguins the past 2 seasons and he is playing an effective 15-20 min a night while manning the PP.

Gardiner is being asked to play minutes he shouldn't be. Gardiner can be an effective player for the Leafs if the Leafs fill their defence core properly. Gardiner and Zaitsev are your dream 3 pairing on defence. That's where they should be playing. With Gardiner having a spot on PP unit and Zaitsev on the PK unit.

If the Leafs can somehow find a vet dman to either play with Reilly or Dermott, that plays a defensive minded game and can play on the PK. Our top 6 should be:

Reilly - New Dman
Dermott- Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev

Play Gardiner and Zaitsev how they should be played and you will see a better defence. Play them out of position and give them too much responsibility you end up getting what we did in game 7. Remember people 50pt dmen do not grow on trees. Gardiner isn't useless just misused.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Unless you are getting a top 10 pick or OEL, we need to keep Gardiner.

You don't trade a 50 point dman who can move the puck and make stretch passes when no other defenseman on our team can. Sure Gardiner makes bad plays but he also makes a bunch of good ones.

Rielly makes a lot of the same mistakes and no one wants to trade him.

Trading Gardiner will be a huge mistake. We already have trouble making breakouts and you want to trade the one guy who is probably the best at it?

Also eveeeyome knows dman struggle in year 2. Which means dermott is going to go through some obvious growing pains next year. He is now the ready for gardiners minutes and I'm not even sure he can match the offense production. We are already going to be losing JVR's production and now you want to trade Gardiner? That is 100 points of production gone and no real replacements.

This are reasonable concerns for sure especially the point loss but I counter you with this: is Gardiner a long term fixture here? Do you sign him after next year? And if you don't then that is a 100 point loss between Gardiner and JVR long term that you get nothing back for. I also never subscribe to "everyone knowing a sophomore slump is going to happen" since we saw concerns vanquished from that with everyone this year pretty quickly, sure dmen take longer to mature and it will be problematic in a short term view to rely heavily on Dermott but there is no guarantee he isn't ready. Trading Gardiner will hurt don't get me wrong but the only thing we can be sure of is that we are officially on the clock before signing him to a long term contract I'm not sure we want or burning another asset. Thanks for the reply.

 

[francis246]

This seems like the best time to trade him. We are about to enter a transition year with kids filling a lot of spots as the old guys move on, I don't think any of us is worried about the forward group so while they are seasoning for a year we should sort this blueline out.

If we assume the year after next our D core is Rielly, Dermott and Zaitsev that tells me we need 1, maybe 2 top 4 RHD, depending on Zaitsev's progress. I'd like to see Gardiner moved and those assets and cap space added to the pile to get a top pairing RHD.

Ideally Timmy takes a spot but how soon he is ready for a top 4 role is the question. Regardless we need a guy who is very strong at the defensive side of the game who can also pass. Please Doughty come home!

It's great in theory but it doesn't happen like that. What if we make all those moves get those assets and end up with a dman not even rometly close to Gardiner: it's a huge risk. Doughty isn't coming here. Our best UFA bet is john Carlson

 

[Gallagbi]

Ray Ferraro said something yesterday and I think it applies here. (i'm paraphrasing here)
In the greatest pressure your greatest deficit will be magnified.

for the Leafs (as a whole) it was defense. Defense as a 5 man unit, defense on the backend.
For Jake - it was his brain (and it's not a shot, because i think that's always been his issue). When Jake has time Jake is great. He can decide what he wants to do, and when he can do it. When Jake is pressured, Jake panics, and a lot of time he felt he didn't have time (when he did) and we saw a lot of the results.

like I said. the kid is who he is. I don't think there is this higher tier the guy can climb. He's a great skater, capable of putting up a lot of points who should be buried. He's not gonna be buried here, s he's playing more than he should and when being pressured results like game seven happen (maybe not as badly but they do happen). i don't think it 'influences' but i think it should 'crystalize' what they've got.

Few issues

1 - I heard the Ferraro comment and its interesting, but they also faced the same pressure in Game 6 and played their best period of the series. Do or die, same D, same G.

2 - Jake's also played in a few elimination games and has always been a bright spot. This was substantially worse than any other playoff game he has played.

3 - Jake's at his worst WITH time because he has the chance to overthink. When pressured he relies on his skating, which allows him to skate himself out of trouble. When teams play passive and cut off his options is when he struggles.

 

[francis246]

This are reasonable concerns for sure especially the point loss but I counter you with this: is Gardiner a long term fixture here? Do you sign him after next year? And if you don't then that is a 100 point loss between Gardiner and JVR long term that you get nothing back for. I also never subscribe to "everyone knowing a sophomore slump is going to happen" since we saw concerns vanquished from that with everyone this year pretty quickly, sure dmen take longer to mature and it will be problematic in a short term view to rely heavily on Dermott but there is no guarantee he isn't ready. Trading Gardiner will hurt don't get me wrong but the only thing we can be sure of is that we are officially on the clock before signing him to a long term contract I'm not sure we want or burning another asset. Thanks for the reply.

Sign him to a tradeable contract and stay the course. Mark my words moving on from Gardiner will be one of the biggest mistakes we make. This game 7 loss really has people losing their minds.

Rielly made multiple bonehead give always that you could argue either cost us home advantage or the chance to play tampa in the first round.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Jake's at his worst WITH time because he has the chance to overthink. When pressured he relies on his skating, which allows him to skate himself out of trouble. When teams play passive and cut off his options is when he struggles.

Yeah I'm gonna agree with this. If you look at the goals against in game seven, one came when he had oceans of time on the breakout. He just kept hesitating and waiting for a better option. Willy swung by and was a terrific option to bring it out, and Jake hesitated. Then all options were gone and he threw it nowhere.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Gardiner is a good player. He is being misused by Babcock that's all. Look at a player that played with him in college Justin Schultz. Couldn't do anything in Edmonton because like Gardiner he was misused. Goes to the Penguins the past 2 seasons and he is playing an effective 15-20 min a night while manning the PP.

Gardiner is being asked to play minutes he shouldn't be. Gardiner can be an effective player for the Leafs if the Leafs fill their defence core properly. Gardiner and Zaitsev are your dream 3 pairing on defence. That's where they should be playing. With Gardiner having a spot on PP unit and Zaitsev on the PK unit.

If the Leafs can somehow find a vet dman to either play with Reilly or Dermott, that plays a defensive minded game and can play on the PK. Our top 6 should be:

Reilly - New Dman
Dermott- Hainsey
Gardiner-Zaitsev

Play Gardiner and Zaitsev how they should be played and you will see a better defence. Play them out of position and give them too much responsibility you end up getting what we did in game 7. Remember people 50pt dmen do not grow on trees. Gardiner isn't useless just misused.

I agree but is that a bottom pairing a team can afford? If we can find that steady stay at home top pairing RHD then I'm all for keeping Gardiner as a powerplay specialist but who fills that roll other then Tanev? Do we want to risk a player with suspect health like Tanev who if injured during the playoffs leaves us right back where we started? I think its likely the eventual RHD replacement is going to be a skilled enough offensive player that he can effectively handle a powerplay spot simply by virtue of how few pure DFD's exist in today's NHL which would leave us with two potent options on the powerplay and suddenly we've got at least 4 million tied up in a third pairing powerplay specialist who we don't realistically need on the powerplay...which isn't ideal.

 

[Buds17]

I think any Gardiner trade would equally be about having a ready replacement on the left side, and the ability to have trade assets and/or cap space to bring in someone for the right side.

I imagine we bring in someone to fill the Polak/Carrick spot regardless, but is Dermott ready for the top 4 and Borgman ready to return to a bottom pair role, perhaps with more ice-time? I suppose we could go get two D for the top six as well.

I don't feel we'll be giving Gardiner his next contract, but can we afford to move him before this one is up? I think Gardiner returning/not returning are equally plausible scenarios at this point.

 

[BlueBaron]

It's great in theory but it doesn't happen like that. What if we make all those moves get those assets and end up with a dman not even rometly close to Gardiner: it's a huge risk. Doughty isn't coming here. Our best UFA bet is john Carlson

Considering Gardiner's great contribution is offense we can survive the loss.

You're basically saying we may not get a better guy so let's stay with the known factor. I'm saying we can afford the risk, which is of course just an opinion.

Carlson is not the type of guy we need really and a big commitment to him closes the door on better options due to Cap limits.

You do not know if Doughty is going to come here, but of course no one is banking on it.

 

[Duke Silver]

OEL is LHD.

I do think it's a good idea to target top pairing D on bad teams. They can get a bad rep based on the people around them rather than their actual play.

Well I'll be damned.

Justin Faulk, then? Booming shot on the PP. Something we don't have.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Sign him to a tradeable contract and stay the course. Mark my words moving on from Gardiner will be one of the biggest mistakes we make. This game 7 loss really has people losing their minds.

Rielly made multiple bonehead give always that you could argue either cost us home advantage or the chance to play tampa in the first round.

How soon do you trade Gardiner then tho? How soon do we project Dermott playing in the top 4 because it will be his third year in the first year of Jake's extension? Will Jake want to resign with the Leafs? I think its extraordinarily likely he will see what is out there on July 1st especially with his spot in the top 4 threatened and with decent odds we have acquired a RHD yet who will likely challenge his relevance on the powerplay. I don't think its going to be a fit for team or player as if its a bidding war there will be other teams willing to cough up more who don't have offensive options on the back end. I really think I laid out a very clear and reasonable course of action addressing concerns with Gardiner's entire situation and reasonable options for us to take that in no way should be classified as "losing my mind"...I understand he is a player who is very good as what he is.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Gardiner is a good player. He is being misused by Babcock that's all.

gonna stop right there.
who would be that player right now on the Leafs then.

 

[ToneDog]

i always have to ask this question
is he a top guy because it's the Leafs and we don't have anything else
or is he a top guy if you switched players anywhere in the league.

because one's an apple and the other is an orange.

I heard an interesting take this morning. Let's say we move Jake+ for Ryan Ellis. Jake plays on Nashville's second pair with Josi and Ellis plays with Z. Who comes out as the better dman ?

McAvoy is a really good dman but he has Chara helping him. How would Jake look playing with Chara ?

 

[Menzinger]

Considering Gardiner's great contribution is offense we can survive the loss.

You're basically saying we may not get a better guy so let's stay with the known factor. I'm saying we can afford the risk, which is of course just an opinion.

Carlson is not the type of guy we need really and a big commitment to him closes the door on better options due to Cap limits.

You do not know if Doughty is going to come here, but of course no one is banking on it.

But Carlson IS a clear top pairing D man who can be had as early as this summer for nothing but capspace. And even then most estimates have him earning about 7.5-8 million which is a lot more reasonable than some other options. I don’t think the Leafs can ignore that.

 

[francis246]

Considering Gardiner's great contribution is offense we can survive the loss.

You're basically saying we may not get a better guy so let's stay with the known factor. I'm saying we can afford the risk, which is of course just an opinion.

Carlson is not the type of guy we need really an a big commitment to him closes the door on better options due to Cap limits.

You do not know if Doughty is going to come here, but of course no one is banking on it.

We don't have the cap space to pay doughty 10 million. Because that's what it's going to take. If you haven't learned from the stamkos situation then I don't know what to tell you. These players are using the thought of coming to Toronto as leverage.

No we cannot afford the risk. Borgman is not better than Gardiner and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but neither is Dermott. We don't even know if Dermott is ready or will be anything like Gardiner (not that he has to be). Having offense from your blue line is important: so no we will not survive the loss. Some of you think that this is NHL 18 where players magically progress overnight.

If you think trading Gardiner and then not even replacing him will make our dcore better then, idk you're mistaken

 

[Menzinger]

Though I think folks are being too hard and Gardiner here and i don’t buy that the Leafs gain any sort of “addition by subtraction” by thing him,

Given the fact his contract is expiring he could be an interest trade chip to bring back a longer term option for a D man - especially a younger guy.

 

[ToneDog]

We don't have the cap space to pay doughty 10 million. Because that's what it's going to take. If you haven't learned from the stamkos situation then I don't know what to tell you. These players are using the thought of coming to Toronto as leverage.

No we cannot afford the risk. Borgman is not better than Gardiner and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but neither is Dermott. We don't even know if Dermott is ready or will be anything like Gardiner (not that he has to be). Having offense from your blue line is important: so no we will not survive the loss. Some of you think that this is NHL 18 where players magically progress overnight.

If you think trading Gardiner and then not even replacing him will make our dcore better then, idk you're mistaken

Marleau may have used us as leverage but he ended signing here.