I’m Convinced

[Five Alarm Fire]

Ah, PS: also TB received calls, previously in the playoffs. In every series there're mistakes. No question about it.
But in that series, something absurd happened. That goal, with other missed/bad calls, only pro-Colorado, were brutal.

PS2: was Colorado the better team? Sure. We had like 10 played hardly injured and Point did not play in the series. For sure Colorado was the better team...

It's easy to remember something as absurd when it happens against you. It is what it is, I don't look at this playoffs and think we were negatively affected by the refereeing, it was neutral at worst. We had plenty of other chances outside of that game and we fell completely flat. It definitely hurts because we were so close and overcame so much, but I'm at peace with finishing second.

There's plenty of reasons Colorado was better than us, we don't need to make excuses here. Ultimately, they're in a different stage of their journey, flush with assets and a much more flexible cap structure. We used to have those advantages too. One day they'll have MacKinnon on a big contract and will face the challenges we faced, while another up-and-coming team puts it all together. The league is cyclical in a cap world.

 

[Fabiobest]

It's easy to remember something as absurd when it happens against you. It is what it is, I don't look at this playoffs and think we were negatively affected by the refereeing, it was neutral at worst. We had plenty of other chances outside of that game and we fell completely flat. It definitely hurts because we were so close and overcame so much, but I'm at peace with finishing second.

There's plenty of reasons Colorado was better than us, we don't need to make excuses here. Ultimately, they're in a different stage of their journey, flush with assets and a much more flexible cap structure. We used to have those advantages too. One day they'll have MacKinnon on a big contract and will face the challenges we faced, while another up-and-coming team puts it all together. The league is cyclical in a cap world.

No sorry...In the Colorado series the refs were a factor. I've no doubt about it. Then, yes: I'm in peace with finishing second. We did everything we could in that situation and, considering also the number of injuries we had to deal with, it's not a shame to lose a playoffs series.
Colorado was surely better than us because the Avs had only Nichushkin and Kadri out (but both of them were able to play an important role in the series)
Tampa had Point, Kucherov, Bellemare, Cirelli, McDonagh, Hagel, Perry and Paul injured.
It's be a miracle to win a series in that condition,
It's not an excuse: it's a fact.

 

[DMB06]

And so?
Did they score during that OT?
Did they win the game before that fake goal?
The answer is no.
In hockey the team that scores more goals wins the game. Not the only who playes well.
Playing well DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING if you are not able to score.
Did Colorado play a great OT? Sure but the game was tied before that fake goal.
And a team with Hedman, Kucherov, Stamkos and Palat out there needs only 30 seconds (or less) to build a capitalize a scoring chance.
Without that goal, the was would have continued and so anyone...anyone could say "Colorado would have surely won the game".
So, yes, the game and the Cup Finals were over because of that.

Ah, PS: also TB received calls, previously in the playoffs. In every series there're mistakes. No question about it.
But in that series, something absurd happened. That goal, with other missed/bad calls, only pro-Colorado, were brutal.

PS2: was Colorado the better team? Sure. We had like 10 played hardly injured and Point did not play in the series. For sure Colorado was the better team...

I agree. There were no calls that favored us, in any series, that remotely compared to the four goals Colorado was handed directly from officiating in the Finals. Makar dives and Colorado scores on the ensuing unearned 5 on3, Paul very clearly beats out the icing yet it's called anyway with Colorado scoring mere seconds after the faceoff in our end, Kadri scores in OT to end the game and give Colorado a 3-1 series lead on, literally, the most obvious too many men penalty you will ever witness as a hockey fan, and to cap it all off Bellmare is pulled to the ice leading to an odd man rush that Colorado scores on.

People can try as they wish, there's no comparison between any call we may have received and those FOUR goals awarded in the SCF to the eventual "winner". Yes we had injuries and yes Point was out, but you take away those four unearned goals and Colorado loses that series. Just a plain simple fact.

 

[Fabiobest]

I agree. There were no calls that favored us, in any series, that remotely compared to the four goals Colorado was handed directly from officiating in the Finals. Makar dives and Colorado scores on the ensuing unearned 5 on3, Paul very clearly beats out the icing yet it's called anyway with Colorado scoring mere seconds after the faceoff in our end, Kadri scores in OT to end the game and give Colorado a 3-1 series lead on, literally, the most obvious too many men penalty you will ever witness as a hockey fan, and to cap it all off Bellmare is pulled to the ice leading to an odd man rush that Colorado scores on.

People can try as they wish, there's no comparison between any call we may have received and those FOUR goals awarded in the SCF to the eventual "winner". Yes we had injuries and yes Point was out, but you take away those four unearned goals and Colorado loses that series. Just a plain simple fact.

True. You're right.
And remember our injury list: Point, Kucherov, Bellemare, Cirelli, McDonagh, Hagel, Perry and Paul had major healthy problems.
They're fact, not excuses.
With all of that, we lost in 6.
But hey, Colorado was better.
How could I agree with that?

 

[DMB06]

True. You're right.
And remember our injury list: Point, Kucherov, Bellemare, Cirelli, McDonagh, Hagel, Perry and Paul had major healthy problems.
They're fact, not excuses.
With all of that, we lost in 6.
But hey, Colorado was better.
How could I agree with that?

My favorite is when people say "But Colorado was outplaying us in the OT period", as if that means they now deserve a goal even if it comes from a blatant missed call. How many times have we had a team pinned in their end only to give up a goal on an odd man rush seconds later? This is something that happens all the time in hockey, it's a huge part of the game and happens repeatedly every single season in favor of and against every team in the league.

And what flips momentum in a game more consistently than anything else? Going on the power play. Kadri's goal, of course, shouldn't have counted. But people seem to forget we also would've immediately been given a PP. When you consider the magnitude of the game - a SCF game, the magnitude of the goal - ended the game immediately in OT, the drastic difference between a potential 2-2 series vs a 3-1 series, and how obvious of a penalty it was - it might be the worst missed call in SCF history. And remember, we got called for too many men repeatedly during our playoff run, making that missed call even worse.

Being "outplayed" in the early parts of that OT game is meaningless information. What matters is if you score, and do so legitimately. No honest person can say that's what happened. Kadri scored that goal because he jumped on the ice several seconds before he should have, with our defense out of position. All of Colorado's momentum led to nothing, they earned nothing and that will remain true forever. Truly the most "asterisk" Cup that has ever been awarded.

 

[Fabiobest]

My favorite is when people say "But Colorado was outplaying us in the OT period", as if that means they now deserve a goal even if it comes from a blatant missed call. How many times have we had a team pinned in their end only to give up a goal on an odd man rush seconds later? This is something that happens all the time in hockey, it's a huge part of the game and happens repeatedly every single season in favor of and against every team in the league.

And what flips momentum in a game more consistently than anything else? Going on the power play. Kadri's goal, of course, shouldn't have counted. But people seem to forget we also would've immediately been given a PP. When you consider the magnitude of the game - a SCF game, the magnitude of the goal - ended the game immediately in OT, the drastic difference between a potential 2-2 series vs a 3-1 series, and how obvious of a penalty it was - it might be the worst missed call in SCF history. And remember, we got called for too many men repeatedly during our playoff run, making that missed call even worse.

Being "outplayed" in the early parts of that OT game is meaningless information. What matters is if you score, and do so legitimately. No honest person can say that's what happened. Kadri scored that goal because he jumped on the ice several seconds before he should have, with our defense out of position. All of Colorado's momentum led to nothing, they earned nothing and that will remain true forever. Truly the most "asterisk" Cup that has ever been awarded.

Perfect post.
And you're right about the PP chance to win the game. I mean: maybe our PP was quite cold at the time but let me think that, when you have Stammer, Hedman, Palat, Kuch on the ice, literaly everything can happen. And going back to Colorado with a 2-2 would have been huge, because all the pressura would have been on their backs.
Hockey, in this case, is similar to the soccer. I mean: you can play the most beautiful soccer in the world. Your team could be more beautiful to watch than the Guardiola's Manchester City. But if your opponent score 1 more goal than you and you continue missing the scoring chance you have, you will lose. Without any question and doubt.
Colorado played a spectacular OT in that game. But considering the fact they were not able to score, everything could have happened. EVERYTHING.
So, I've not any kind of problem to say we got robbed in the Finals.
Refs + Injuries = Impossible to Win.

 

[Rschmitz]

cooper changed the identity of the team in the early phase of the 2020 season.

That didn't happen in a bubble, there was another change before then. The team became heavily dependent on shot suppression before the sweep to Columbus because of our offensive weapons, and then made another shift to a trap style to be better prepared for the postseason. Neither of these changes happen without a horse like McDonagh to lean on

 

[RussianGuyovich]

That didn't happen in a bubble, there was another change before then. The team became heavily dependent on shot suppression before the sweep to Columbus because of our offensive weapons, and then made another shift to a trap style to be better prepared for the postseason. Neither of these changes happen without a horse like McDonagh to lean on

i mean, the team defense first, shot suppression was absolutely the change made in early 2019-2020 season. we witnessed the team struggle in the beginning stages of the regular season as they adapted to the new dynamic. the 2018-2019 run-and-gun offense that broke regular season records and got swept in the playoffs was not shot suppression.

and there are plenty of McD-less teams that make changes to strategy, your affinity for McD is kind of weird.

 

[Hoek]

lol what? I love how you just throw out his excellent 2019 season where he was 8th in Norris voting...because the team got swept by Columbus? What a take

When he got here we went from a middle of the pack goal differential team that relied on one defenseman carrying the blueline, to the best puck possession team in the league, and then to one of the top overall defensive teams. We rely on our defense to win games, not our offense, you couldn't say that pre-2019 and McDonagh is a big reason for that shift. To accomplish that he played a significant role in weening Sergachev and Cernak into the top 4, and took over much of the tough defensive matchups that were going to Hedman.

It's crazy to me how some of you are handwaving away the effect easier minutes have had on Hedman, who has quietly had durability question marks throughout his career. Hopefully Cole and Sergachev step up, this team is not a contender with Hedman injured, as evidenced when he went down in the sweep against Columbus, which is the actual biggest reason for the team looking like a dumpster fire.

I agree with most of this, I just think the phrase "culture change" is weird to apply to a player and not the best way to describe his impact. It's more like his presence enabled us to spread the defensive responsibility around more.

 

[Rschmitz]

i mean, the team defense first, shot suppression was absolutely the change made in early 2019-2020 season. we witnessed the team struggle in the beginning stages of the regular season as they adapted to the new dynamic. the 2018-2019 run-and-gun offense that broke regular season records and got swept in the playoffs was not shot suppression.

and there are plenty of McD-less teams that make changes to strategy, your affinity for McD is kind of weird.

Do you even know what it means when a team relies on shot suppression? It's the ability of a team or player to reduce shots against by controlling the puck and being in the offensive 2/3 of the ice. This is why advanced stats loved players like Karlsson and Dougherty, because despite not being anything special in their own zone, they save a ton of goals/SA by forcing the other team to defend. In other words like I said, our team that featured "run and gun" offense relied on shot suppression to defend. Because they did.

There were three changes that were made after the Columbus sweep to improve our GA, and it has nothing to do with "shot suppression". Our rankings on shots allowed hasn't changed much over the last 5 years. First, our defensemen stopped joining the rush from our side of the red line even after we gained possession, securing us against counters. Second, our forecheckers no longer attack the puck carrier, we've quietly become a trap team, and one of the best at it. Third, once we've conceded zone entry we collapse, let the other team take their shots on Vasy, and control rebounds. Our expected goals against have gone way down because of this, even though our shot totals have remained pretty consistent.

You think I'm weird for saying nice things about a player. Good to know

 

[Rschmitz]

I agree with most of this, I just think the phrase "culture change" is weird to apply to a player and not the best way to describe his impact. It's more like his presence enabled us to spread the defensive responsibility around more.

Identity change is not the same thing as culture change, which I never said.

Sending McDonagh-Cernak against the other teams top lines the last four years, and giving Hedman 60%+ ozone starts and the freedom to contribute more offensively, changed this teams identity.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

Do you even know what it means when a team relies on shot suppression? It's the ability of a team or player to reduce shots against by controlling the puck and being in the offensive 2/3 of the ice. This is why advanced stats loved players like Karlsson and Dougherty, because despite not being anything special in their own zone, they save a ton of goals/SA by forcing the other team to defend. In other words like I said, our team that featured "run and gun" offense relied on shot suppression to defend. Because they did.

hrrmm ok we just have a different definition of "shot suppression" as i think there are other methods beyond just standard possession. hence why i mentioned "team defense".

There were three changes that were made after the Columbus sweep to improve our GA, and it has nothing to do with "shot suppression".

“shot generation and shot suppression are mostly independent” (SOURCE)

Our rankings on shots allowed hasn't changed much over the last 5 years. First, our defensemen stopped joining the rush from our side of the red line even after we gained possession, securing us against counters. Second, our forecheckers no longer attack the puck carrier, we've quietly become a trap team, and one of the best at it. Third, once we've conceded zone entry we collapse, let the other team take their shots on Vasy, and control rebounds. Our expected goals against have gone way down because of this, even though our shot totals have remained pretty consistent.

this is cool, i didn't argue whether we made changes. although our shots against stats have pretty steadily risen, actually. of course, because we collapse.

You think I'm weird for saying nice things about a player. Good to know

i think it's weird you white knight him, but everyone needs a gimmick

 

[Rschmitz]

i think it's weird you white knight him, but everyone needs a gimmick

I read you the first time

 

[Stammertime91]

You two are like Malkin and Kessel

 

[RussianGuyovich]

You two are like Malkin and Kessel

kiss the rings

 

[Rschmitz]

You two are like Malkin and Kessel

Still a better love story than Twilight

 

[J T Money]

The Refs didn’t cost us the series via Colorado. The number of players we had injured did. I believe if both Colorado and Tampa played a series fully healthy - we’d come out on top.

Colorado did what I’d expect Tampa to do vs an injury riddled opponent - dominate, demolish and win the series.

Every year, teams get derailed by injuries. For our back to back Cups, we didn’t have a third of our team dealing with significant / debilitating injuries like we did in 2022. Looking back at 2015 and 2016, injuries derailed us then too.

We had 2 years of good luck and 1 year of bad luck with this Cup winning core. Shit happens and let’s hope for the best this upcoming year.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Colorado was also the best team we've faced in the playoffs in the last 3 post-seasons.