Hurricanes sale formally closed, Tom Dundon now majority owner

[Fugu]

And that's a perfectly legit question, as it pertains to values of franchises in general or whether Bettman and Co. are artificially inflating those values to make certain goals on paper.

If it's just more conspiracy theory fodder, as in "nobody would ever buy that team for that much unless they were going to relocate," well, you can take that crap and bury it in the hole in which it belongs.

Edit: Not "you", personally, but you know what I mean

Well, on HF, we love all you people and unlike the NHL, we'd give all of you people teams -- Quebec, Carolina, Houston, Atlanta, Tokyo, Sydney, Melbourne, London, Berlin.....and so and so forth.

 

[BattleBorn]

And that's a perfectly legit question, as it pertains to values of franchises in general or whether Bettman and Co. are artificially inflating those values to make certain goals on paper.

If it's just more conspiracy theory fodder, as in "nobody would ever buy that team for that much unless they were going to relocate," well, you can take that crap and bury it in the hole in which it belongs.

Edit: Not "you", personally, but you know what I mean

What people here think doesn't mean much other than to give ourselves something to discuss.

We can think the Canes are worth $300MM, but this dude's apparently willing to put himself into the game at $500MM. That means it's worth $500MM. When it comes to valuations, the price someone's willing to pay always trumps the valuation.

Plus, we're all normal folks. I don't know that any of us can conceive what $500MM is, let alone understand what it means to have enough money to pay a little too much for a team because you want it. I'm willing to accept the valuation of the people throwing actual money into the pot more than the guy at Forbes making $80,000 a year to come up with team valuations.

 

[Roboturner913]

Perhaps you don't realize how much the goalposts have moved over the years.

Back in the beginning, when this was a bad team playing in Greensboro after a no-fanfare relocation that few anticipated, it was "Look at all the empty seats! It's a failure already! They'll move again soon!"

When the arena was full every night and literally THE loudest building in the league, it was "They'll never show up when the team's losing! That's when they'll move!"

When the team was losing, and people STILL showed up, it was "Ok, but nobody will ever buy them"

Now that someone has signed on the dotted line, it's "I bet he'll flip them in 5 or 10 years..."

It truly never ends. That's what Robo is talking about. No matter that a team sale in the modern NHL is effectively the end of the conversation, never mind that the team is on the upswing again and attendance is sure to get back up to its old levels, never mind that the market is growing and will be at a different level a decade from now. It just never ends for some people, because they're fighting on principle instead of facts.

To build on this, it's been at a point the last two years that no matter what was said, or who said it, it's been twisted to fit a certain narrative.

If Bettman comes out and says "We're committed to Carolina, they're not moving," it's all, "Well Bettman's a big liar so they're moving"

Bettman stays mum on the subject. "Well, the silence is deafening, clearly they're moving".

Karmanos is selling: "Oh well for sure they're moving now."

Karmanos is selling but only to someone who will keep the team local: "Oh, that's just what they're telling people, moving is a certainty."

Karmanos sells to someone who pledges to keep team local and has a history of keeping teams local: "Oh he's just saying that for now, he paid all that extra money, they're almost surely going to move."

Team has a losing season: "Most pitiful franchise ever"

Team has a winning season: "They're only decent because they play in a terrible division"

Team is Stanley Cup runner-ups: "Worst team to reach the finals ever"

Team wins Stanley Cup: "Worst team to win the Stanley Cup ever"

Team loses in Eastern conf. finals: "Worst team to get to the Eastern Conference Finals ever"

Team goes to crap, but 17,000 fans show up anyway: "Look here's a cherry-picked shot of some empty seats we got from the most expensive section in the house 30 minutes before gametime. Nobody goes to their games. Time to relocate"

Team finishes 17th place in 15-16. Prediction for the next season? Dead last, of course.

It's the same **** over and over and over and over and it's not ever going to end. I understand that somebody has to be the red-headed stepchild, but good grief, it's been 20 years of this crap. Enough. Go pick on the Canucks or somebody.

 

[cbcwpg]

It's pointless to discuss with people who don't understand, but no not everyone is happy. You can put 20 teams in Canada and those teams will make money. Doesn't mean everyone will be happy.

The game needs to grow. It's losing ground to MLS. Someday in our lifetime we will be talking about how they just lost their TV deal because NBC thinks volleyball has a better reach and you'll be scratching your head as to why with such profitable teams in Winnipeg and Quebec City. Toronto could support four NHL teams tomorrow. That doesn't mean you put four teams in Toronto.

Believe it or not the NHL BOG is very happy with Bettman because his M.O. is to expand the game. Not isolate it up north. This will not change ever. Call it ridiculous if you want but it doesn't matter if Winnipeg sells out. Winnipeg doesn't create new fans. Everyone just traded their old jerseys from teams they picked up when the Jets left. Winnipeg is not good for the NHL but it was necessary at the time. If they had more time or better owners they would still be in Atlanta.

Bettman's job or mandate is to "grow the game". The problem is people see "grow the game" as just creating new fans and putting teams where they might create new fans. While this can be a means to an end there is more too it than that.... to the NHL "grow the game" is not just more fans, but to grow the game financially. That is what the NHL BoG wants... because growing the game financially makes the franchises more valuable.

Now if putting a team in Las Vegas is seen as a way to make the NHL more financially stronger then that is what they will do. If moving the Thrashers to Winnipeg makes the league stronger then that is why the Bog allowed it to happen. I don't think for one second that more teams should be moved to Canada willy-nilly unless there is no other option, because doing so eliminates the safety net that the NHL needs.

And as far as fan creation, moving the Thrashers to Winnipeg did create more fans... a lot more fans and a lot more money into the NHL coffers. People think that everyone north of the border is a hockey fan just because they live here. Well, that's not true. I know lots of people that have never watched hockey before the Jets came here. Why? Because believe it our not, people from other parts of the world do move here and have never heard of the game. Putting am NHL team anywhere can create new fans... it's not something exclusive to the southern US.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Bettman's job or mandate is to "grow the game". The problem is people see "grow the game" as just creating new fans and putting teams where they might create new fans. While this can be a means to an end there is more too it than that.... to the NHL "grow the game" is not just more fans, but to grow the game financially. That is what the NHL BoG wants... because growing the game financially makes the franchises more valuable.

Now if putting a team in Las Vegas is seen as a way to make the NHL more financially stronger then that is what they will do. If moving the Thrashers to Winnipeg makes the league stronger then that is why the Bog allowed it to happen. I don't think for one second that more teams should be moved to Canada willy-nilly unless there is no other option, because doing so eliminates the safety net that the NHL needs.

And as far as fan creation, moving the Thrashers to Winnipeg did create more fans... a lot more fans and a lot more money into the NHL coffers. People think that everyone north of the border is a hockey fan just because they live here. Well, that's not true. I know lots of people that have never watched hockey before the Jets came here. Why? Because believe it our not, people from other parts of the world do move here and have never heard of the game. Putting am NHL team anywhere can create new fans... it's not something exclusive to the southern US.

Nonsense, the Jets are in the bottom third of the league in revenue and taken revenue sharing most of their time in Winnipeg. The optics may be better with a tiny arena that's always sold out but that's about it. They are just as much takers as they were when in Atlanta with no real potential of growth for the league, it was huge blow for the league what happened with that franchise no matter what success the Jets have it will never erase that.

 

[Mightygoose]

Nonsense, the Jets are in the bottom third of the league in revenue and taken revenue sharing most of their time in Winnipeg. The optics may be better with a tiny arena that's always sold out but that's about it. They are just as much takers as they were when in Atlanta with no real potential of growth for the league, it was huge blow for the league what happened with that franchise no matter what success the Jets have it will never erase that.

The point was that the move to Winnipeg created new fans.

Weather they're in the bottom third or receive revenue sharing doesn't change that. Now their position on that grid can change depending on the dollar of course and with the CAD trending up as of late, they'll be just fine.

Now that may not seem like a 'grow the game' as many see it but what Winnipeg provided or more specifically their ownership and business model is stability it didn't exists in one instance.

Bringing this back to the topic of the Canes, there's an opportunity to bring this franchise much needed stability if this ownership can close the deal and rebuild the franchise in Raleigh.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Perhaps you don't realize how much the goalposts have moved over the years.

Back in the beginning, when this was a bad team playing in Greensboro after a no-fanfare relocation that few anticipated, it was "Look at all the empty seats! It's a failure already! They'll move again soon!"

When the arena was full every night and literally THE loudest building in the league, it was "They'll never show up when the team's losing! That's when they'll move!"

When the team was losing, and people STILL showed up, it was "Ok, but nobody will ever buy them"

Now that someone has signed on the dotted line, it's "I bet he'll flip them in 5 or 10 years..."

It truly never ends. That's what Robo is talking about. No matter that a team sale in the modern NHL is effectively the end of the conversation, never mind that the team is on the upswing again and attendance is sure to get back up to its old levels, never mind that the market is growing and will be at a different level a decade from now. It just never ends for some people, because they're fighting on principle instead of facts.

thank you for your post. but please read this response to it ...

To build on this, it's been at a point the last two years that no matter what was said, or who said it, it's been twisted to fit a certain narrative.

If Bettman comes out and says "We're committed to Carolina, they're not moving," it's all, "Well Bettman's a big liar so they're moving"

Bettman stays mum on the subject. "Well, the silence is deafening, clearly they're moving".

Karmanos is selling: "Oh well for sure they're moving now."

Karmanos is selling but only to someone who will keep the team local: "Oh, that's just what they're telling people, moving is a certainty."

Karmanos sells to someone who pledges to keep team local and has a history of keeping teams local: "Oh he's just saying that for now, he paid all that extra money, they're almost surely going to move."

Team has a losing season: "Most pitiful franchise ever"

Team has a winning season: "They're only decent because they play in a terrible division"

Team is Stanley Cup runner-ups: "Worst team to reach the finals ever"

Team wins Stanley Cup: "Worst team to win the Stanley Cup ever"

Team loses in Eastern conf. finals: "Worst team to get to the Eastern Conference Finals ever"

Team goes to crap, but 17,000 fans show up anyway: "Look here's a cherry-picked shot of some empty seats we got from the most expensive section in the house 30 minutes before gametime. Nobody goes to their games. Time to relocate"

Team finishes 17th place in 15-16. Prediction for the next season? Dead last, of course.

It's the same **** over and over and over and over and it's not ever going to end. I understand that somebody has to be the red-headed stepchild, but good grief, it's been 20 years of this crap. Enough. Go pick on the Canucks or somebody.

there is nary a fact in it. that's my point.

 

[TheLegend]

You're right Qc wont have a team no matter the reason.

But tell me moving ATL to Winnipeg is growing the game in the states?

Let's put this in the correct perspective. Moving Atlanta to Winnipeg was out of sheer necessity and not for "growing the game" on either side of the border.

And in regards to CBCs post about revenue growth. He's correct in that respect. But Winnipeg is also a revenue sharing recipient (TNSE has admitted it as much) and was maxed out from day one in respect to any future significant revenue growth that the league seeks.

 

[Roboturner913]

there is nary a fact in it. that's my point.

Oh yeah, sure, I just dreamed all that stuff up, nobody really says those things

 

[Melrose Munch]

Nonsense, the Jets are in the bottom third of the league in revenue and taken revenue sharing most of their time in Winnipeg. The optics may be better with a tiny arena that's always sold out but that's about it. They are just as much takers as they were when in Atlanta with no real potential of growth for the league, it was huge blow for the league what happened with that franchise no matter what success the Jets have it will never erase that.

People like you wanted Phoenix to stay. If the coyotes had left and gone to Winnipeg, the Thrashers would still be here and help the league establish a major presence in the south. Next time, think about that when you say the want the Coyotes to stay. Let's hope we don't lose Seattle now either.

And it was completely downplayed if not outright ignored by the Canadian media, imagine if that had been an American market especially one in the sun belt.

MOD

False, it was first page news in the local paper and the Toronto Media gave Ottawa a black eye. I said myself that would have not happened in Hamilton.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Phoenix is in the top 12-13-14, right up there with Detroit and Seattle. In that sense, it is an important market. The NHL shouldn't abandon the large cities easily once they're there.


I am surprised an "outsider" is putting up an offer for the team. It will be interesting to see the actual amount if it's not $500 MM, and who else he's bringing to this dance. RTP is a rapidly growing area, which is always better for future considerations and US growth.

Right, but Phoenix has little corporate support and weak income growth. It's filled with retiree's. Atlanta was a much better bet, and we lost that while the league is still in Phoenix. There is nothing the Coyotes can do that Golden Knight won't be better at grow the game-wise. That's why the league is waiting for Seattle, which is the same size but they actually have money.

If we just had Houston, Atlanta, Seattle and Portland, the league would be balanced.

 

[New User Name]

And it was completely downplayed if not outright ignored by the Canadian media, imagine if that had been an American market especially one in the sun belt.

MOD

Oh yes they did, every ****ing day........multiple newspapers, radio and TV stations and you know what, most people didn't have a problem with it, I mean they were reporting facts.

Nothing wrong with reporting facts. For most.

 

[New User Name]

Let's put this in the correct perspective. Moving Atlanta to Winnipeg was out of sheer necessity and not for "growing the game" on either side of the border.

And in regards to CBCs post about revenue growth. He's correct in that respect. But Winnipeg is also a revenue sharing recipient (TNSE has admitted it as much) and was maxed out from day one in respect to any future significant revenue growth that the league seeks.

Please provide proof of such.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Please provide proof of such.

Go ask TNSE.

 

[New User Name]

Go ask TNSE.

hahaha yeah okay bud

Let's look at history a bit here. There's only been two times the public were made aware of any financial assistance given by the league.

The first was called the Canadian assistance plan where Gary made sure to hell everyone knew how the NHL was being so kind to 4 Canadian teams. He even admonished Canadian politicians for denying aid to the Canadian teams.

The second time was in court documents showing the 15 million the Panthers received one year.

I would love the NHL to release the figures of who gets what.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Oh yes they did, every ****ing day........multiple newspapers, radio and TV stations and you know what, most people didn't have a problem with it, I mean they were reporting facts.

Nothing wrong with reporting facts. For most.

Sorry, I guess I missed all the ranting about how Ottawa was an unworthy market and that the Senators should be relocated. All I heard were lame excuses about arena location and how fans are disillusioned with ownership and other such nonsense that would never fly with southern franchises.

 

[MNNumbers]

hahaha yeah okay bud

Let's look at history a bit here. There's only been two times the public were made aware of any financial assistance given by the league.

The first was called the Canadian assistance plan where Gary made sure to hell everyone knew how the NHL was being so kind to 4 Canadian teams. He even admonished Canadian politicians for denying aid to the Canadian teams.

The second time was in court documents showing the 15 million the Panthers received one year.

I would love the NHL to release the figures of who gets what.

He's talking about the reverie re distribution in the new CBA. If Winnipeg is not top 10 in the league, they are recipients. They have been recipients.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

hahaha yeah okay bud

Let's look at history a bit here. There's only been two times the public were made aware of any financial assistance given by the league.

The first was called the Canadian assistance plan where Gary made sure to hell everyone knew how the NHL was being so kind to 4 Canadian teams. He even admonished Canadian politicians for denying aid to the Canadian teams.

The second time was in court documents showing the 15 million the Panthers received one year.

I would love the NHL to release the figures of who gets what.

It's well known fact that the Jets receive revenue sharing, TNSE has admitted it.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

People like you wanted Phoenix to stay. If the coyotes had left and gone to Winnipeg, the Thrashers would still be here and help the league establish a major presence in the south. Next time, think about that when you say the want the Coyotes to stay. Let's hope we don't lose Seattle now either.

False, it was first page news in the local paper and the Toronto Media gave Ottawa a black eye. I said myself that would have not happened in Hamilton.

People like me huh? I don't know who you think I am, but I really have no power over the situation. But if it was up to me Coyotes stay in AZ and Thrashers would still be in Atlanta and the league and the sport would be better for it.

 

[powerstuck]

What people here think doesn't mean much other than to give ourselves something to discuss.

We can think the Canes are worth $300MM, but this dude's apparently willing to put himself into the game at $500MM. That means it's worth $500MM. When it comes to valuations, the price someone's willing to pay always trumps the valuation.

Plus, we're all normal folks. I don't know that any of us can conceive what $500MM is, let alone understand what it means to have enough money to pay a little too much for a team because you want it. I'm willing to accept the valuation of the people throwing actual money into the pot more than the guy at Forbes making $80,000 a year to come up with team valuations.

I don't think Clippers were worth 2B, but then comes Steve Ballmer with more money than he knows what to do with and ''makes'' them worth that much.

 

[cbcwpg]

People like me huh? I don't know who you think I am, but I really have no power over the situation. But if it was up to me Coyotes stay in AZ and Thrashers would still be in Atlanta and the league and the sport would be better for it.

Then why didn't you buy the Thrashers and keep them in Atlanta? Because it wasn't up to you. It was up to all the billionaires and millionaires in the world and they all looked at the Atlanta situation and said " no thanks.... I want to stay rich ".

If staying in Atlanta would have made the league better for it, then someone would have seen to it that they did stay, but the situation was that they couldn't.

 

[EQV]

Perhaps you don't realize how much the goalposts have moved over the years.

Of course he (she?) doesn't.

It's a recurring theme, you have people from up north or from Canada who don't follow the 'Canes and know even less about the actual market.

And then they have the gall to tell us how to feel about constantly being belittled and criticized.

Sure, if a franchise is truly failing and can't draw even when the team is actually good and this goes on for many many seasons, fine, call them a non-hockey market. At that point I feel it would be warranted.

But the 'Canes have given the Carolinas extremely little to be excited about since the Cup win. Last playoff appearance was in '09.

And even with that, plus all the other challenges the franchise has faced, attendance didn't really start suffering until 2-3 seasons ago. Before that, we were drawing about 16K per game. That isn't hanging-off-the-rafters every night like at Centre Bell or wherever else but it certainly isn't bad.

You simply cannot expect people to pay to see a losing product year after year after year anywhere.

2-3 years of down attendance after not making the playoffs for 8 does not mean it's a failing market. It means fans are voting with their wallets.

Don't believe me? Look at how support for certain NFL teams dries up if the team is performing poorly, even though the entire US is football-mad.

Or how there are empty seats in tons of NBA arenas, even though that's all SportsCenter in the US talks about despite the league having no parity.

The 'Canes need to start winning. I believe that will happen soon. Give the Carolinas a team that can actually compete, and then re-evaluate the health of the market.

But seeing how our attendance was certainly respectable for years after our last playoff appearance when the team was obviously not good, and it's only recently started to become a problem, you'd think people would take that into account when talking about the viability of our market.

But of course everyone has an agenda.

 

[EQV]

there is nary a fact in it. that's my point.

Oh, but there is.

There's obviously a fair bit of hyperbole in that post.

But we've heard some variation of every single point that robo made over the years repeatedly.

I'm not going to sit here and tell, say, a Leafs fan what it's like to cheer for them and what they deal with from fans of other teams, because I'm not from Ontario and I don't know.

 

[Street Hawk]

Phoenix is in the top 12-13-14, right up there with Detroit and Seattle. In that sense, it is an important market. The NHL shouldn't abandon the large cities easily once they're there.


I am surprised an "outsider" is putting up an offer for the team. It will be interesting to see the actual amount if it's not $500 MM, and who else he's bringing to this dance. RTP is a rapidly growing area, which is always better for future considerations and US growth.

The Phoenix situation was bad from the get go. They moved the Jets from Winnipeg to Phoenix, but the Arena they moved into (Talking Stick Resort Arena, formerly AmericaWest Arena) opened in June 1992, 4 years before the Jets arrived. It was a basketball specific arena, thus it only had 13k unobstructed seats.

So, unless the owners of the Coyotes were ready to pay for a new arena, sharing that one with the Suns was not going to be a long term viability. Maybe if they had allowed the Jets to go to say Nashville instead (Bridgestone Arena opened in Dec 18/96), that would have been a better situation. Just unrealistic to expect public funds for a new arena when a new one opened in 1992. Why build a second one that close? I think Arizona is a market that the NHL should be in, but if a city has a new arena built recently that isn't meant for hockey, why go there at that time?

So, what the NHL and the Coyotes owners got wrong was thinking that an arena in Glendale would work. What market research done by the Coyotes which showed that it would benefit the franchise in the long run to accept the Glendale offer? The Cardinals are in Glendale too, but they play once a week on Sunday afternoon. The Coyotes have to have games Monday to Thursday at 7 pm.

For the Hurricanes, they have a new arena which opened in 1999, which was originally supposed to be for the NC State Wolfpack, but they modified it to make it accommodate hockey before they broke ground in 1997. So, having not ever been there, as long as it is located where it should be for fans to get to 2 times during the week days, then they have everything they need. Up to the franchise to put together the right personnel, on and off the ice to make it work.

 

[Melrose Munch]

People like me huh? I don't know who you think I am, but I really have no power over the situation. But if it was up to me Coyotes stay in AZ and Thrashers would still be in Atlanta and the league and the sport would be better for it.

Yeah people like you. All this talk about the sun belt, when the problem was never hockey, it was the fact Phoenix was a bad sports town and that should have been the first clue. On the other big 3 sports boards, people complain about the same cities and attendance problems. At least with Atlanta, there was a large economy, corporate presence and people with disposable income. Phoenix had none of that. And both are on the lower tier of sports markets, having attendance problems in the MLB for example as well. If southern expansion was to work, you keep Atlanta over Phoenix. This team will be in Seattle 2021, and will all have that money wasted keeping them alive be worth it? When we could have just kept the Thrashers in Atlanta and let the Coyotes go to Winnipeg?

Then why didn't you buy the Thrashers and keep them in Atlanta? Because it wasn't up to you. It was up to all the billionaires and millionaires in the world and they all looked at the Atlanta situation and said " no thanks.... I want to stay rich ".

If staying in Atlanta would have made the league better for it, then someone would have seen to it that they did stay, but the situation was that they couldn't.

Exactly. Although the league should have been in Atlanta. Phoenix was not worth this.