News Article: Hurricanes Extend Lease at PNC Arena for Five Years

[tarheelhockey]

Why would you drive from N Raleigh, Cary, etc. to eat/drink there?

Because there will be an IKEA next to it

 

[Svechhammer]

Umm. They generally go home for dinner. Have you seen what Lake Boone or Edwards Mills looks like at lunch vs dinner? I doubt it.

From someone who lives nearby.

ETA. Still not enough to support.

Sounds like the exact same arguments that people made when a developer had the idea to renovate North Hills Mall from the shit hole it was in 2003.

And I say that as someone who literally walked there 2-3 times a week during that time period.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sounds like the exact same arguments that people made when a developer had the idea to renovate North Hills Mall from the shit hole it was in 2003.

And I say that as someone who literally walked there 2-3 times a week during that time period.

I think that’s his point — the North Hills revitalization involved a lot of investment in high density residential.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

The whole area is building up fast. There is already a huge community of higher density housing on Trinity, more apartments are going up around Blue Ridge, there is development underway on Edwards Mill, and that's just what is going on right now. That area is ripe for a hub and the sports complex is a perfect spot for it.

Much, much, state land surrounds it. Cardinal Gibbons aint moving, nor Schenk Forest, nor the Corporate Center, Rex and the med bldgs, the fair, the vet school, and on and on.

Again, it's not central to most of the rest of the population.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Sounds like the exact same arguments that people made when a developer had the idea to renovate North Hills Mall from the shit hole it was in 2003.

And I say that as someone who literally walked there 2-3 times a week during that time period.

My point. You need that kind of developement t9 have success.

FWIW. I first lived behind Ridgewood in the 50s til we moved down Ridge in 63. My father was offerred to go in with the folks who bought the land where N Hills mall was to come. He declined as he could not imagine why anyone would go there. LOL.

 

[Svechhammer]

It's also all in how you use the area.

You do this and suddenly you have a space that would host something Canes related 80 nights per season. You could easily have someone in the Stormy costume make an appearance for each road game and host all pre and post game tv and radio shows could also be hosted within the bar (Ale House).

And thats just for hockey, you could do the same for NCSU basketball and football games as well. Right there, you're already talking 120 or so nights a year, which is on average one event every 3 days. And then you could also partner with the local American Outlaws chapter to do USMNT and USWNT watch parties in the bar or plaza during friendlies with intent to pack the plaza during the World Cup.

There are enough things you could do over the year to keep people coming back. Maybe even bring in live music in the plaza during the summer months and it really could end up just being a destination location over the course of the year, even if people have to drive a few mins to get there.

 

[chaz4hockey]

Interesting. I wouldn't think the ticket offices simply because you want to take advantage of the captive audience at the game. The arena isn't a place people are going to drive for a sports book.

It would take some pretty major renovations to turn that into a sports book facing inside. It might be more cost-effective to flip an interior Eye location and the ticket office/sports book or even the primary Eye location and the ticket office/sports book, making a sports book more accessible inside the arena space.

I would bank on a booking location on every floor plus perhaps along side the ticketing office. We seem to be mirroring the UK in which betting is everywhere and you find booking sites within their stadiums.

 

[Svechhammer]

Does the sports book need to be a physical place?

I went to a Bulls game the other day and they have a QR code on the back of every seat so you can order concessions from your phone. Any reason PNC couldn't just stick a QR code on the back of every seat so people could place wagers from their phones?

I was thinking of more a sports book/bar venue similar to what you see in Vegas, just on a much smaller scale, where people would go to hang out for a while as they place bets with friends.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I would bank on a booking location on every floor plus perhaps along side the ticketing office. We seem to be mirroring the UK in which betting is everywhere and you find booking sites within their stadiums.

If it gets to that level of intensity, it’s going to get old fast. I’m at the game to see the game, not get hawked by bookies.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

It's also all in how you use the area.

You do this and suddenly you have a space that would host something Canes related 80 nights per season. You could easily have someone in the Stormy costume make an appearance for each road game and host all pre and post game tv and radio shows could also be hosted within the bar (Ale House).

And thats just for hockey, you could do the same for NCSU basketball and football games as well. Right there, you're already talking 120 or so nights a year, which is on average one event every 3 days. And then you could also partner with the local American Outlaws chapter to do USMNT and USWNT watch parties in the bar or plaza during friendlies with intent to pack the plaza during the World Cup.

There are enough things you could do over the year to keep people coming back. Maybe even bring in live music in the plaza during the summer months and it really could end up just being a destination location over the course of the year, even if people have to drive a few mins to get there.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

Ask Papa Lou (LM/Ale House owner) if he would invest in a restaurant given that scenario. You are talking a relatively small subset of the dining out, etc. the population. 1/3 of the year doesn't cut it.

There are C Ale House and similar located around the area. What % of Canes fans who watch away games at bars are going to drive 5, 10, etc. miles to watch (and drink) when they can drive 2 miles?

Have you read or listened to what TD is talking about? It includes housing in the development plans.

 

[NotOpie]

The whole area is building up fast. There is already a huge community of higher density housing on Trinity, more apartments are going up around Blue Ridge, there is development underway on Edwards Mill, and that's just what is going on right now. That area is ripe for a hub and the sports complex is a perfect spot for it.

There will be more residential development in that area as it will be an easy corridor for the many new hi-tech businesses locating relatively nearby (Apple, FUJIfilm, Gilead, etc). If done right, with enough retail along with food and drink establishments, there's no reason this wouldn't have the potential as a destination.

All that said, and despite the history and legacy, I could see the state eventually leasing/selling the fairgrounds complex and moving that farther out east or south. Not saying it's going to happen, but the revenue that would provide the state coffers would be impactful.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

There will be more residential development in that area as it will be an easy corridor for the many new hi-tech businesses locating relatively nearby (Apple, FUJIfilm, Gilead, etc). If done right, with enough retail along with food and drink establishments, there's no reason this wouldn't have the potential as a destination.

All that said, and despite the history and legacy, I could see the state eventually leasing/selling the fairgrounds complex and moving that farther out east or south. Not saying it's going to happen, but the revenue that would provide the state coffers would be impactful.

Not whole lot of vacant land left in the arena area. Unless the state and ncsu decide to sell some off like they did for Bandwidth (not residential). The state just built a brand new Ag building at Edwards Mills and Reedy Cr.

How long would it take to get the legislature to agree to moving the fair, then siting and building it out. Might could happen but it will be long drawn out and messy.

Apple in southern RTP (think Apex & Chatham housing), Fuji in Holly Springs, Gilead probably RTP.

The arena has been there 20 years. Backstreet Bistro, Wendy's and now Bo's.

High rises/mini N Hills is the only way to do an "entertainment district". And that means eating up open tailgating parking lots...

 

[tarheelhockey]

The arena has been there 20 years. Backstreet Bistro, Wendy's and now Bo's.

This is a great quote to pull out when people start talking about "developing" suburban areas with an arena as the anchor.

20 years produced 2 fast food restaurants and a mediocre bar/grill.

 

[LostInaLostWorld]

This is a great quote to pull out when people start talking about "developing" suburban areas with an arena as the anchor.

20 years produced 2 fast food restaurants and a mediocre bar/grill.

Not really all "suburban" fault. The site is/was basically hemmed in from all sides for any kind of development. Gibbons was built at the same time as the arena...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not really all "suburban" fault. The site is/was basically hemmed in from all sides for any kind of development. Gibbons was built at the same time as the arena...

Even to the extent that land has been available, it has remained undeveloped or been developed for things independent of the arena. e.g., the Wade Park development is right next door and has turned out the same way as it would have if the arena never existed. The space around the Trinity/Edwards Mill intersection is zoned commercial... we got a gas station/Wendy's on one side and mid-level office buildings on the other. Again, if the arena never existed it would have ended up looking about the same. The one thing you can point to and say "that definitely exists because of the arena" is Backyard Bistro in front of a Four Points, which isn't exactly a triumph of real estate development.

Maybe it turns out a little differently if the state-owned land is open for private development. But the experience of the Charlotte Coliseum in the 80s and 90s leads me to believe that it would have been mostly filled in with more office space, apartments, and low-end commercial like what we see at that intersection. Maybe there would be a couple more sports bars mixed in, as we see on Western Blvd to take advantage of gameday crowds, but gameday overflow doesn't support full time commercial operations.

 

[Svechhammer]

At the same time, we haven't seen a really pointed effort to develop that area, yet. At least not in a super serious way over the last 20 years. But given what has happened in the Triangle since the team moved down, and noticing that we're really stopping the efforts to spread out and are not more focused on developing up, having a giant plot of unused or underutilized land right at the intersection of I-40 and 440 seems to be something that inevitably will be built up in the next 10 years. Eventually, the state will get paid off enough by someone to let that land go and it'll be built up quick, and it'll almost happen overnight.

Personally, I think its inevitable that it will happen. The fairgrounds will move out past 540, and I wouldn't be shocked if NCSU relocates some of their agriculture fields around that same time. And I would almost expect it to develop similarly to how North Hills did when this does all go down. And with Dundon already taking a very pointed approach to spur this to happen with the backing of Centennial Authority.... yeah.

 

[tarheelhockey]

At the same time, we haven't seen a really pointed effort to develop that area, yet. At least not in a super serious way over the last 20 years. But given what has happened in the Triangle since the team moved down, and noticing that we're really stopping the efforts to spread out and are not more focused on developing up, having a giant plot of unused or underutilized land right at the intersection of I-40 and 440 seems to be something that inevitably will be built up in the next 10 years. Eventually, the state will get paid off enough by someone to let that land go and it'll be built up quick, and it'll almost happen overnight.

Personally, I think its inevitable that it will happen. The fairgrounds will move out past 540, and I wouldn't be shocked if NCSU relocates some of their agriculture fields around that same time. And I would almost expect it to develop similarly to how North Hills did when this does all go down. And with Dundon already taking a very pointed approach to spur this to happen with the backing of Centennial Authority.... yeah.

In the case of this specific area, it's hugely important that NCSU and the DoA are both tied into the Centennial Authority. So when it comes to developing the area, the 'calls will becoming from inside the house' so to speak. It won't be the usual antagonistic relationship between developers and public officials... in the case of the CA, the public officials are the developers with a vested interest on both sides of the equation.

 

[Svechhammer]

In the case of this specific area, it's hugely important that NCSU and the DoA are both tied into the Centennial Authority. So when it comes to developing the area, the 'calls will becoming from inside the house' so to speak. It won't be the usual antagonistic relationship between developers and public officials... in the case of the CA, the public officials are the developers with a vested interest on both sides of the equation.

.... And Centennial Authority already unanimously voted to approve the full scale of plans that included development outside of just the arena itself. Its not just that there is support from CA to have this happen, there is overwhelming support to the extent that it really does appear everyone is on the same page about making it happen.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

American Airlines Arena in Dallas has a layout similar to what you're talking about here, and it works extremely well. With a minimal footprint you have:

1) Places right outside the door offering pregame dinner and drinks
2) Places right outside the door offering postgame nightcaps
3) A clearly defined plaza which can be used for whatever purpose, as in the picture below
4) A spacious team store outside the arena, so that in-arena merch can be located in more flexible spaces

Something like this could easily be achieved in the plaza outside PNC, serving both the arena and Carter Finley.

Edit: there are traffic considerations in front of PNC which would limit the scale of the additions. Obviously it could not look exactly like this picture without cutting off Stroud Way. I have mixed feelings as to whether cutting off Stroud Way would be a positive or a negative.

Build it over Stroud Way. That's pretty much no problem. They're building up anyway.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Umm. They generally go home for dinner. Have you seen what Lake Boone or Edwards Mills looks like at lunch vs dinner? I doubt it.

From someone who lives nearby.

ETA. Still not enough to support.

I don't agree.

Here's the truth: as cool as some people think tailgating is, a lot of people don't want that shit. They want nice restaurants right next to the arena. I would 100% be more excited to go to a Canes game if I could go at 5pm, have a kick-ass dinner at an Ashley Christensen or Ricky Moore joint, then go to a Canes game, then go to a nice bar to sing karaoke or whatever.

Entertainment districts are destinations. Can the Triangle support another one? It absolutely can. They never actually tried before with a bunch of stakeholders on the same page.

Re: the argument of housing having to be "right there", you'd be surprised at how much housing ends up "right there" when everyone gets on board. You think they don't have plans for this?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

In the case of this specific area, it's hugely important that NCSU and the DoA are both tied into the Centennial Authority. So when it comes to developing the area, the 'calls will becoming from inside the house' so to speak. It won't be the usual antagonistic relationship between developers and public officials... in the case of the CA, the public officials are the developers with a vested interest on both sides of the equation.

I think this is exactly what's happening.

 

[Svechhammer]

I don't agree.

Here's the truth: as cool as some people think tailgating is, a lot of people don't want that shit. They want nice restaurants right next to the arena. I would 100% be more excited to go to a Canes game if I could go at 5pm, have a kick-ass dinner at an Ashley Christensen or Ricky Moore joint, then go to a Canes game, then go to a nice bar to sing karaoke or whatever.

Entertainment districts are destinations. Can the Triangle support another one? It absolutely can. They never actually tried before with a bunch of stakeholders on the same page.

Re: the argument of housing having to be "right there", you'd be surprised at how much housing ends up "right there" when everyone gets on board. You think they don't have plans for this?

I'm with you on this. During the playoffs, I tailgate before every game, but for the rest of the season, unless its either the first game of the year or a weekend game when the weather is absolutely perfect, I really just don't have the desire to do that for the regular season. But I absolutely would show up at the lots an hour early and hop into a bar adjacent to the arena for a drink or 2 before going to the game if that was an option. Even if we were tailgating, I could definitely see a desire to maybe show up a little earlier for the tailgate and then just tack on a stop by the district on the way into the arena as part of the routine.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

I'm with you on this. During the playoffs, I tailgate before every game, but for the rest of the season, unless its either the first game of the year or a weekend game when the weather is absolutely perfect, I really just don't have the desire to do that for the regular season. But I absolutely would show up at the lots an hour early and hop into a bar adjacent to the arena for a drink or 2 before going to the game if that was an option. Even if we were tailgating, I could definitely see a desire to maybe show up a little earlier for the tailgate and then just tack on a stop by the district on the way into the arena as part of the routine.

Honestly, I presumed this would happen years ago, and was disappointed that it never did.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm with you on this. During the playoffs, I tailgate before every game, but for the rest of the season, unless its either the first game of the year or a weekend game when the weather is absolutely perfect, I really just don't have the desire to do that for the regular season. But I absolutely would show up at the lots an hour early and hop into a bar adjacent to the arena for a drink or 2 before going to the game if that was an option. Even if we were tailgating, I could definitely see a desire to maybe show up a little earlier for the tailgate and then just tack on a stop by the district on the way into the arena as part of the routine.

80% of the season is played when it's dark by 7pm. Half our home games are played during the work week.

You know what I don't want to do on a Tuesday? Get off work and rush over through rush-hour traffic so I can sit in my car and drink beer in a gravel lot in the dark.

I love the tailgating scene and hope it stays around in some form, but it shouldn't be a significant factor in conversations about developing the area. As long as the parking lots around the football stadium exist, there will be places to tailgate to our heart's content.