Hull's 119.5mph Slapshot A Myth

[SealsFan]

I don't need to know how fast it was to know I didn't want to be between the pipes when he's winding up. The testimony of goalies who faced him is all you need. I remember he caught Ed Giacomin with a slapper between the eyes (sans mask!!) in 70/71 at Madison Square Garden. The newspaper had a pic of him coming off the ice holding a towel to his bloody face. Wonder how long that headache lasted?!

 

[pappyline]

Sigh, you are really making yourself sound ignorant here when it comes to procedures in timed sports.

Sigh, and you are making yourself sound arrogant.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Forget about margin of error, these test results point towards a flawed methodology. Not only are they obviously out of sync with today's results, but some of Perceval's measurements aren't even believable in relation to some of his other measurements.

Different =/= flawed.

 

[tombombadil]

I'll take the farm boys who work over the city slickers who work out any day.

I've seen and heard of a few big work out nuts who were done by noon when putting in a days real work on the farm.

And I'm a slicker myself.

well, you'll be the GM with the pick of the litter down at the farm, then, because all the other ones have their 'work out nuts' signed and playing.

 

[RandV]

I don't take seriously any measurables of this sort that were not measured using standardized, properly calibrated, electronic timing equipment. I've pretty much always regarded this claim as meritless.

For the same reason, I regard as laughable all of the 40 yard dash times that are out there for football players which were hand-clocked, some of which suggest a faster 40 yard start than what Usain Bolt has managed to do in the 100m sprint.

To get precise measurement you obviously need the proper laser tripod setups, but I thought it was always the case that football players had a faster 40 yards than sprinters? It's all in the explosive strength, they get to their top speed far much quicker but have a much lower peak. As a sprinter back in high school, I can recall one time we did some training at 60 meters with the precise laser timers. I'm probably more of an extreme example since I never did any serious training and I've always had a poor start, but my 100m time was just under 12 seconds while yet I was clocking in the 60 meter at 8 seconds.

 

[RandV]

well, you'll be the GM with the pick of the litter down at the farm, then, because all the other ones have their 'work out nuts' signed and playing.

A professional athlete is in a completely different class, but if your talking about your city slicker with an office job who eats healthy and is at the gym everyday vs your country yokel who's out working all day on the farm (especially doing hay), while the former will cut a better figure the latter likely wins in strength/athleticism. Just look at those worlds strongest man competitions, the guys are usually farmers.

 

[tombombadil]

A professional athlete is in a completely different class, but if your talking about your city slicker with an office job who eats healthy and is at the gym everyday vs your country yokel who's out working all day on the farm (especially doing hay), while the former will cut a better figure the latter likely wins in strength/athleticism. Just look at those worlds strongest man competitions, the guys are usually farmers.

yes, on both counts. I was, in fact, talking about pro athletes.

 

[Epsilon]

To get precise measurement you obviously need the proper laser tripod setups, but I thought it was always the case that football players had a faster 40 yards than sprinters? It's all in the explosive strength, they get to their top speed far much quicker but have a much lower peak. As a sprinter back in high school, I can recall one time we did some training at 60 meters with the precise laser timers. I'm probably more of an extreme example since I never did any serious training and I've always had a poor start, but my 100m time was just under 12 seconds while yet I was clocking in the 60 meter at 8 seconds.

A world-class 100m sprinter should almost always have a faster 40yd split time than just about any football player, even if the sprinters are not going "all-out" over that initial 40 yards. There is absolutely no credibility in football players having 40YD times that are faster than Usain Bolt's 100m world record 40YD split time, when only a handful of them (Jeff Demps, Trindon Holliday, etc.) have PRs that are even within 0.5 seconds of his record, and most are probably a full second or more slower (you cannot credibly lose THAT much time over the final stretch, barring injury or something). Chris Huston at HeismanPundit has been a very thorough job debunking the myth of 40 yard dash times.

 

[RobertKron]

Different =/= flawed.

Different does pretty clearly equal flawed when different claims that he had a 96mph backhand.

 

[Killion]

I remember he caught Ed Giacomin with a slapper between the eyes (sans mask!!) in 70/71 at Madison Square Garden.

...Krikey. So much for Eddie's Matinee' Idol good looks huh?.

 

[Individual 1]

Different does pretty clearly equal flawed when different claims that he had a 96mph backhand.

There is no different way of measuring a backhand at 96 mph, when in reality it is going at least 20 mph slower, it is just wrong.
There is no different way of measuring a car moving 60mph, when it is actually going 45 mph it is simply the wrong way.

There is nothing different about these measurements they are flawed, they are wrong.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

I'm sure there's a way of measuring the speed of Hull's shot by looking at old videos and doing some calculations. Perhaps do a few different shots and get an average. I believe I remember something like time plus (or minus) distance equals speed or something like that. I'm the last person to do that though. Me no good math.

edit: but now that I think about it, I bet the frame rate on old video wouldn't be high enough to get an accurate reading of time.

 

[Killion]

Perhaps do a few different shots and get an average.

.... like that episode of CSI Miami called Velocity?. Bruckheimer just makes stuff up.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

.... like that episode of CSI Miami called Velocity?. Bruckheimer just makes stuff up.

Haven't been a Caruso fan since NYPD Blue. Never watch it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Different does pretty clearly equal flawed when different claims that he had a 96mph backhand.

There is no different way of measuring a backhand at 96 mph, when in reality it is going at least 20 mph slower, it is just wrong.
There is no different way of measuring a car moving 60mph, when it is actually going 45 mph it is simply the wrong way.

There is nothing different about these measurements they are flawed, they are wrong.

Neither one of you has the faintest clue what you are talking about.

If you don't have the methodology you have no idea if the measurement is correct or incorrect.

Compared to the hardest shot competition as it is conducted now? Sure it seems unlikely that Hull would hit 119mph with a slapshot under those conditions.

That still says nothing about how correct or incorrect the measurement was in the 60s.

A VW van can probably reach a higher maximum speed than most Ferarri's if you drop it out of a plane. It is pretty obvious we're similarly comparing apples to oranges in this thread.

 

[RobertKron]

Neither one of you has the faintest clue what you are talking about.

If you don't have the methodology you have no idea if the measurement is correct or incorrect.

Compared to the hardest shot competition as it is conducted now? Sure it seems unlikely that Hull would hit 119mph with a slapshot under those conditions.

That still says nothing about how correct or incorrect the measurement was in the 60s.

A VW van can probably reach a higher maximum speed than most Ferarri's if you drop it out of a plane. It is pretty obvious we're similarly comparing apples to oranges in this thread.

Okay, fair enough. If Hull was taking a slap shot while standing on a platform on top of a fighter jet, then yeah, we'll have a conversation here.

 

[Hanji]

Neither one of you has the faintest clue what you are talking about.

If you don't have the methodology you have no idea if the measurement is correct or incorrect.

Compared to the hardest shot competition as it is conducted now? Sure it seems unlikely that Hull would hit 119mph with a slapshot under those conditions.

That still says nothing about how correct or incorrect the measurement was in the 60s.

A VW van can probably reach a higher maximum speed than most Ferarri's if you drop it out of a plane. It is pretty obvious we're similarly comparing apples to oranges in this thread.

The methodology is flawed because some results are unbelievable even in relation to each other. A quality measurement system should be uniform, yet there is nothing uniform about these numbers.


These results are beyond comical. But whatever, at least they verify the original 6 players had superhuman strength (allegedly obtained by working on farms).
I mean we already knew Hull, all 5-10 190 of him, would've stripped the puck from Lucic with a flying clothesline, skated down the ice in 1.34 seconds, stopped on a dime to suplex Chara, then shot the puck straight through Thomas' pads with his backhand!!!

 

[MS]

Neither one of you has the faintest clue what you are talking about.

If you don't have the methodology you have no idea if the measurement is correct or incorrect.

Compared to the hardest shot competition as it is conducted now? Sure it seems unlikely that Hull would hit 119mph with a slapshot under those conditions.

That still says nothing about how correct or incorrect the measurement was in the 60s.

A VW van can probably reach a higher maximum speed than most Ferarri's if you drop it out of a plane. It is pretty obvious we're similarly comparing apples to oranges in this thread.

There is no way a player hitting a puck with a hockey stick can make it go 120 mph or 96 mph on the backhand. The numbers are just wrong, full stop. A guy in the 1960s could not shoot a puck 15 mph faster than any of the thousands of pro players to come along in the 15 years since.

If they were claiming he hit 150 mph, would you still be claiming that the measurement is wrong?

If a dealer tries telling me that a VW van can hit 200 mph on a highway, he's wrong. That's the long and short of it.

 

[tombombadil]

The methodology is flawed because some results are unbelievable even in relation to each other. A quality measurement system should be uniform, yet there is nothing uniform about these numbers.


These results are beyond comical. But whatever, at least they verify the original 6 players had superhuman strength (allegedly obtained by working on farms).
I mean we already knew Hull, all 5-10 190 of him, would've stripped the puck from Lucic with a flying clothesline, skated down the ice in 1.34 seconds, stopped on a dime to suplex Chara, then shot the puck straight through Thomas' pads with his backhand!!!

i appreciate your sarcasm. To be fair, there are only a couple posters are over-enamored with the legends of hockey, in this thread. And, honestly, I do believe Hull's size wouldn't hinder him, physically, in today's game. He was strong, i do not doubt it, but strong like one of our mid-size guys that devotes his life to his legs and core.... like Datsyuk, Crosby, or Forsberg. As for the farm thing - well, i do believe that prairie boys have genetics on their side. Most prairie boys i know have names that suggest their roots come from Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. all strong people, many of whom are farmers, too. I believe the weak get weeded out in that line of work. the strong continue to farm, and breed likewise. The workout of farming itself, also very good - especially if you played in the 60's where no one did anything for cross-training. I have bailed hay, and I have finished concrete, worked at a mill, worked out like a upper-body-obsessed idiot, and also as a less idiotic functional strength guy.... and really, it's all good (except always trying to bulk up past what your frame can support, and sacrificing health , cardio, and mobility) Bobby Hull was strong because the Hull family is strong AND because he worked hard on the farm. He woulda been even better off if he had an intelligent gym routine on top of that.

The coaches and trainers (in a big money org now) know what they are doing. I hope guys can see this, and still not bag on the greats of old - they were the best, and did the best with what was known at the time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

There is no way a player hitting a puck with a hockey stick can make it go 120 mph or 96 mph on the backhand. The numbers are just wrong, full stop. A guy in the 1960s could not shoot a puck 15 mph faster than any of the thousands of pro players to come along in the 15 years since.

If the methodology was different (and it obviously was based on the results and many players being ~100mph), it certainly was possible.. it happened. The question here has to be HOW it happened.

If they were claiming he hit 150 mph, would you still be claiming that the measurement is wrong?

If a dealer tries telling me that a VW van can hit 200 mph on a highway, he's wrong. That's the long and short of it.

Once again completely missing the point. I never claimed that my opinion was that the measurement was wrong.

You almost got there at the end though.

I'm pretty confident that the measurements are correct within whatever respective margin of error was present at the time. The difference is obviously how they conducted the test.

Therefore we can't really compare the results from that study and the current all star game results one to one.. savvy?

PS - Hull was before my time watching hockey, I just don't necessarily buy into the hfboards trend that current players are bionic superheroes, either. At the top end they aren't much different in capability than they were 20 years ago.

 

[justsomeguy]

It's great to respect the history and pioneers of the game, but take off your rose colored glasses. Any beer league player today would be a decent player for any pre-Original 6 team.

think this is a bit of an overstatement. Most of the beer leaguers I know wouldn't stand a chance with the guys from radio and black&white TV.

Take away today's beer-leaguers' helemets, space-age armour and composite sticks, replace them with brylcreem, leather tube skates, those really small, thin felt and leather pads and eight-pound straight-bladed Northlands. For goalies, remove the mask, trapper and most of the padding. Give 'em something about the thickness of a folded quilt for their upper bodies and heavy, sweat-absorbing leather jobs for their lower body.

Then put 'em out there against folks like Hull, Geoffrion, Howe, Lindsay and Ezinicki.

Pretty sure most of them wouldn't make it through one of them 3-minute shifts.

 

[BobbyAwe]

The methodology is flawed because some results are unbelievable even in relation to each other. A quality measurement system should be uniform, yet there is nothing uniform about these numbers.


These results are beyond comical. But whatever, at least they verify the original 6 players had superhuman strength (allegedly obtained by working on farms).
I mean we already knew Hull, all 5-10 190 of him, would've stripped the puck from Lucic with a flying clothesline, skated down the ice in 1.34 seconds, stopped on a dime to suplex Chara, then shot the puck straight through Thomas' pads with his backhand!!!

You forgot the flying kneedrop off the top of the glass to Julien lying prone on the ice....but wait! Julien rolls out of the way at the last second and....

 

[MS]

If the methodology was different (and it obviously was based on the results and many players being ~100mph), it certainly was possible.. it happened. The question here has to be HOW it happened.

Once again completely missing the point. I never claimed that my opinion was that the measurement was wrong.

You almost got there at the end though.

I'm pretty confident that the measurements are correct within whatever respective margin of error was present at the time. The difference is obviously how they conducted the test.

Therefore we can't really compare the results from that study and the current all star game results one to one.. savvy?

PS - Hull was before my time watching hockey, I just don't necessarily buy into the hfboards trend that current players are bionic superheroes, either. At the top end they aren't much different in capability than they were 20 years ago.

There is no methodology that can make a 96 mph backhand possible. The numbers are garbage, total tripe.

If someone were to claim that a runner was timed doing the 100m dash in 7.25 seconds in 1962, you'd know in an instant that it was total rubbish not possible under any circumstances. Same thing with this.

I don't know what they were doing, but someone either made a gross timing error, mis-calibrated the equipment, or outright lied to get the results discussed.

 

[double5son10]

think this is a bit of an overstatement. Most of the beer leaguers I know wouldn't stand a chance with the guys from radio and black&white TV.

Take away today's beer-leaguers' helemets, space-age armour and composite sticks, replace them with brylcreem, leather tube skates, those really small, thin felt and leather pads and eight-pound straight-bladed Northlands. For goalies, remove the mask, trapper and most of the padding. Give 'em something about the thickness of a folded quilt for their upper bodies and heavy, sweat-absorbing leather jobs for their lower body.

Then put 'em out there against folks like Hull, Geoffrion, Howe, Lindsay and Ezinicki.

Pretty sure most of them wouldn't make it through one of them 3-minute shifts.

Thank You. YES, perhaps the methodology is quaint, inaccurate, and bulloons stats toward old-timers. But this garbage that O6 stars couldn't play in today's game is sheer foolishness.
OK, maybe Bobby Hull couldn't have shot as hard as Chara, but any poster that wants to argue that Hull didn't have as good a shot as Chara is just being a moron. I think we know which player is more likely to find the corners w/ enough accuracy and velocity to put it by the goalie, any goalie, on a consistent basis, and it sure ain't the modern wrestling superstar.
Drives me bananas on these posts how caught up people are on size/weight ratios, statistics, who could piss farther with a bladder full of RedBull, etc. and miss who was a better HOCKEY PLAYER. Hull was arguably the best player in the game for two decades. Chara's a borderline HOF defensive defensemen, yet some of you people want to debate the merits of who's more worthwhile based on stop watches and laser guns. Who cares that Hull had 119mph slapper and Chara's was 108.5. I know who I'd want on my team in any head to head comparison, regardless of who has a full weight set or bail of hay. Such meaningless poppycock.

 

[pluppe]

Thank You. YES, perhaps the methodology is quaint, inaccurate, and bulloons stats toward old-timers. But this garbage that O6 stars couldn't play in today's game is sheer foolishness.
OK, maybe Bobby Hull couldn't have shot as hard as Chara, but any poster that wants to argue that Hull didn't have as good a shot as Chara is just being a moron. I think we know which player is more likely to find the corners w/ enough accuracy and velocity to put it by the goalie, any goalie, on a consistent basis, and it sure ain't the modern wrestling superstar.
Drives me bananas on these posts how caught up people are on size/weight ratios, statistics, who could piss farther with a bladder full of RedBull, etc. and miss who was a better HOCKEY PLAYER. Hull was arguably the best player in the game for two decades. Chara's a borderline HOF defensive defensemen, yet some of you people want to debate the merits of who's more worthwhile based on stop watches and laser guns. Who cares that Hull had 119mph slapper and Chara's was 108.5. I know who I'd want on my team in any head to head comparison, regardless of who has a full weight set or bail of hay. Such meaningless poppycock.

Bolded
Maybe those who are participating in a discussion wheather Hull had a 119 mph shot or not cares? If Hull was a better player or not isn´t relevant at all.

But to answer both questions anyway:
Yes, Hull was a greater player than Chara.
No, he did not have a 119 mph slap shot.