HF Habs: HuGo moves approval rates (Year II)

[Milhouse40]

Genuinely, Cap space wasn’t an issue at any point of Hughes’ tenure. We have a lot of cap inefficiencies for sure — some of which were brought on by Hughes himself — but that’s not been in the way of acquiring good players (which Hughes has not been able to do). He says he wants a winning culture but doesn’t acquire good players to improve the roster and doesn’t sell Anderson to tank.

That’s fine, but the prospect pool doesn’t look better than when he took over.

True. And Hughes hasn’t helped at all. You know how I feel about Slaf no need to debate — we can agree to disagree.

He hasn’t solved any of them. Not remotely.

It’s far too early to claim he is a good GM but so many Habs fans do it anyway and make excuses for him anyway.

Bergevin had a plan too, Bergevin was a breath of fresh air too. I remember it well.

1- Dach and Newhook are good players
2- Which some of the cap inefficiencies he brought in?

When you are bias, don't try to make it this obvious

 

[WeThreeKings]

Well. The habs had like 20 million dollars committed into unmoveable bottom 6 players.

Also, they’ve only been around 2 drafts. There have been like 15 players over the last two drafts that have played nhl games, a testament to how soon it is to tell what’s going on. I think Slaf has played more nhl games than all combined or something close to that.

If the prospect pool is bare it’s because the drafts preceding the last two were quite poor. And if there is little talent on the current club, it’s because the previous GM did a very poor job in accumulating talent.

HuGo basically arrived with 0 depth in goaltending and at the forward position. There is no way to solve both with only two drafts.

I get your frustrations, but it’s far too early for any GM to substantially turn this ship around.

6 seasons of missing the play-offs for the Sens, and it's really been 10 years of rebuilding as one of those years was a fluke run.

12 seasons straight for Buffalo and they are on a sad start despite superstar Zach Benson.

Took 10 seasons for Chicago.

Pittsburgh the outlier, they took 5 seasons and were lucky to get back to back generational talents in Malkin/Crosby.

8 years for Colorado.

8 years for Tampa Bay.

8 years for the Blues.

9 years for Washington

9 years for LA.

 

[Sorinth]

My guess is that these are only year 2 moves and the previous thread he links is where there were votes for year 1 moves.

You might be right (Though Caufield's extension is a big miss) but still seems odd as things change. In the linked thread MSL hiring was at 98.1%, I'm pretty sure it's much lower today, Mesar was at 65% when he's probably <10% today.

 

[ReHabs]

1- Dach and Newhook are good players
2- Which some of the cap inefficiencies he brought in?

When you are bias, don't try to make it this obvious

1. Dach and Newhook were buy-low gambles. The respective fanbases of their former teams were not remotely outraged to lose them.

Good prospects, neither had hit even 40pts a season as NHLers. Can’t say they’re good NHL players, come on now.

2. Petry reacqusition, Allen contract, Pearson — that’s 10m itself isn’t it?

I am only biased toward my own expectations which I find are shared by many here… but there is a certain chilling effect when toxic optimists insist to smash anyone who has not fallen in love with the latest bozo Molson has hired.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Genuinely, Cap space wasn’t an issue at any point of Hughes’ tenure. We have a lot of cap inefficiencies for sure — some of which were brought on by Hughes himself — but that’s not been in the way of acquiring good players (which Hughes has not been able to do). He says he wants a winning culture but doesn’t acquire good players to improve the roster and doesn’t sell Anderson to tank.

I agree that Cap space hasn't been a real issue for Hughes yet. We still have plenty of cap space now and everyone expected we would be swinging another Monahan-style deal with it this summer, instead we made a series of Petry trades, adding dead cap for the 2024-25 season for a 2nd round pick in 2025 and getting Hoffman off the books this year. Pretty meh, I hate Hoffman but I would've liked to limit our dead cap because I want to try to win games in the 2024-25 season. I'm not losing any sleep over it though.

What we don't know is if Molson told them to cheapen the roster after spending 90M+ in real salary on the worst team in the league over the past 2 years. He spends the most money on the worst team, I'd be pretty pissed.

 

[Vachon23]

Bergevin had a plan too, Bergevin was a breath of fresh air too. I remember it well.

Bergevin had his chance to when he started

 

[WeThreeKings]

I agree that Cap space hasn't been a real issue for Hughes yet. We still have plenty of cap space now and everyone expected we would be swinging another Monahan-style deal with it this summer, instead we made a series of Petry trades, adding dead cap for the 2024-25 season for a 2nd round pick in 2025 and getting Hoffman off the books this year. Pretty meh, I hate Hoffman but I would've liked to limit our dead cap because I want to try to win games in the 2024-25 season. I'm not losing any sleep over it though.

What we don't know is if Molson told them to cheapen the roster after spending 90M+ in real salary on the worst team in the league over the past 2 years. He spends the most money on the worst team, I'd be pretty pissed.

We won't start winning games with consistency for another 2-3 seasons at best. It's the reality every rebuild faces.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

View attachment 755266

6 seasons of missing the play-offs for the Sens, and it's really been 10 years of rebuilding as one of those years was a fluke run.

View attachment 755267

12 seasons straight for Buffalo and they are on a sad start despite superstar Zach Benson.

View attachment 755268

Took 10 seasons for Chicago.

View attachment 755272

Pittsburgh the outlier, they took 5 seasons and were lucky to get back to back generational talents in Malkin/Crosby.

View attachment 755280

8 years for Colorado.

View attachment 755281

8 years for Tampa Bay.

View attachment 755282

8 years for the Blues.

View attachment 755283

9 years for Washington

View attachment 755284

9 years for LA.

Is this what you want though?

To suck for 8-10 years?

The players we are staking our rebuild on are 9-11 year olds... there might be 36 teams in the league by then

 

[ReHabs]

Bergevin had his chance to when he started

Hughes has had a free hand — who’s stopping him?

Is it too much to ask for Habs fans to not worship the guy before he has any accomplishments?

I don’t care if people wanna worship whoever or whatever they want, but they get mad at me for not agreeing with their vision!

I think drafting Slaf and rushing him were equally two of the worst decisions a new GM could’ve made. It defies belief that we ended up with Slafkovsky who ended up having the worst 1OA rookie season in 20+ years. Not the second worst, the worst.

Why does Hughes get away with this? Why should he get away with it?

If it’s too early to want to fire him then it must be too early to praise him.

 

[waitin425]

The best move is not even listed

Bye bye Jojo

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

We won't start winning games with consistency for another 2-3 seasons at best. It's the reality every rebuild faces.

By that point in time we will be advocating for trading Suzuki and Caufield to improve our tank odds

 

[JoelWarlord]

The idea cap space was never an issue is completely false, it effectively forced the entire year 1 sell-off. We traded Toffoli, Chiarot, Lehkonen, and Kulak with no real replacements because we had no certainty on Price's LTIR status and flat out couldn't afford to retain or replace those players. We couldn't do anything that entire offseason, and it wasn't until August 2022 that they got clarity on Price's status and could spend the money on the Dach extension and Monahan cap dump, prior to that the team was virtually handcuffed by existing cap allocations even after trading multiple players making decent middle of the lineup money.

There is a reasonable debate between the Pearson/Petry trade approach and its return measured against just eating Conor Garland or signing some generic forward to try and flip at the deadline instead over the past summer, but it is completely untrue that cap space wasn't ever a problem under this FO.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Is this what you want though?

To suck for 8-10 years?

The players we are staking our rebuild on are 9-11 year olds... there might be 36 teams in the league by then

Does it matter what I want?

That's the reality.

The only way it isn't a reality is unexpected development curves, lucky opportunities in trade markets, and the right FA opportunities..

So we have to deal with the reality and hope for the best case scenario but not rely on it. If you try to skip steps, you trip up, and suddenly a 5-8 year process becomes a 10-13 year process. That's the Buffalo cautionary tale. It's something Detroit is going to find out real fast, too.

 

[Miller Time]

Wow... As much as I knew that a lot of Habs fans wanted Michkov (I did as well), crazy to me that Reinbacher is the least favorable move from that list so far...

I think that in 3-5yrs from now, that will be seen as laughable. DR is going to be a stud long term, book it

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Does it matter what I want?

That's the reality.

The only way it isn't a reality is unexpected development curves, lucky opportunities in trade markets, and the right FA opportunities..

So we have to deal with the reality and hope for the best case scenario but not rely on it. If you try to skip steps, you trip up, and suddenly a 5-8 year process becomes a 10-13 year process. That's the Buffalo cautionary tale. It's something Detroit is going to find out real fast, too.

Vegas got condemned by all the armchair GMs on here for trading away 1st round picks and all of their top prospects and we know how that worked out.

Seattle had a typical 1st expansion season, looked awful with low value players, and because of a good GM and coaching they had a great 2nd season starting with nothing.

We are Montreal, not Buffalo. We don't suck for 10 years and call it okay, we have a brand to uphold, and the fans will start bringing out the pitchforks next season if we come away with another god awful season full of injuries and another off the board 1st round pick.

If anything your post shows that you don't need 10 years of tanking to find success, you just need 2-3 seasons where you are either very smart or get very lucky. So far we have been mildly smart and incredibly unlucky.

And if we are counting fluke runs as rebuild years, we have been rebuilding since the Kotkaniemi season.

 

[selteeck]

Technically not a move tho, it would've been an easy 100%, I agree

Sometimes the best move is not to move at all.

 

[Ezpz]

I'm fine with most. Allen extension was silly and premature. I wanted Reinbacher since mid-season so I am not upset about it. I thought he'd be there with Florida's pick but they trolled us.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Vegas got condemned by all the armchair GMs on here for trading away 1st round picks and all of their top prospects and we know how that worked out.

Seattle had a typical 1st expansion season, looked awful with low value players, and because of a good GM and coaching they had a great 2nd season starting with nothing.

We are Montreal, not Buffalo. We don't suck for 10 years and call it okay, we have a brand to uphold, and the fans will start bringing out the pitchforks next season if we come away with another god awful season full of injuries and another off the board 1st round pick.

If anything your post shows that you don't need 10 years of tanking to find success, you just need 2-3 seasons where you are either very smart or get very lucky. So far we have been mildly smart and incredibly unlucky.

Vegas is the lucky team that had no previous cap issues as a expansion team, who had beneficial expansion rules to take advantage of and absolutely wrecked some bad GMs who made massive mistakes to protect players they shouldn't have protected.

They then used their plethora of cap space and prospect/draft capital to supplement that core and won a cup. They've dipped into free agency and got Pietrangelo, etc.

They are an example of a team finding success through some luck and fortunate circumstances unique to that team and market.

We are a hockey team, we can continue to operate as we have since 1993 and have no chance at winning a cup.. or we can see this thing through properly and see if we can create some good situations or luck along the way. But planning on that is not a path for success.

My post shows that you need between 5-8 years through a rebuild to get into competition. If you try to force it, you end up like Buffalo and do it all over again.

All your post is suggesting is that somehow because of our historical success from over 50 years ago, we aren't supposed to be held to the tenants of hockey but we are... and it sucks if you can't be patient and others can't be patient, but Hughes will and that is what matters because being impatient is how you end up where we have for the last 30 years. No man's land.

 

[BLONG7]

If the thread starts with rationalization for the Allen extension I don’t suspect you’ll see any room for diverse opinions.

I like most of his moves, but for me, the Allen extension was a real bizzare one..........

 

[Vachon23]

Vegas is the lucky team that had no previous cap issues as a expansion team, who had beneficial expansion rules to take advantage

And the most important thing, they are at Vegas where everyone wants to go… It’s easier where your in a market that is gonna be at the top of every list

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

My post shows that you need between 5-8 years through a rebuild to get into competition. If you try to force it, you end up like Buffalo and do it all over again.

All your post is suggesting is that somehow because of our historical success from over 50 years ago, we aren't supposed to be held to the tenants of hockey but we are... and it sucks if you can't be patient and others can't be patient, but Hughes will and that is what matters because being impatient is how you end up where we have for the last 30 years. No man's land.

The reason we hired Gorton in the first place, and the reason why we were so optimistic about his hiring, is because the goal was to follow the New York Rangers rebuild.

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

When Gorton released this message Rangers fans freaked out about committing to the rebuild, 3 years later they were in the ECF. The Rangers succeeded despite god awful drafting from Gorton, because they fired him, committed real $ to UFAs, and found a great goalie.

 

[Vachon23]

The reason we hired Gorton in the first place, and the reason why we were so optimistic about his hiring, is because the goal was to follow the New York Rangers rebuild.

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

When Gorton released this message Rangers fans freaked out about committing to the rebuild, 3 years later they were in the ECF. The Rangers succeeded despite god awful drafting from Gorton, because they fired him, committed real $ to UFAs, and found a great goalie.

Where not NY though where players will force there way to play for us (Panarin/Trouba/Fox). It was impossible to have the same path of them and it was clear since the start

 

[Tyson]

The handling of Cayden Primeau says it all about the competence of this manages group. If you aren't going to play him, f***ing waive him and let him get on with his career.

 

[WeThreeKings]

The reason we hired Gorton in the first place, and the reason why we were so optimistic about his hiring, is because the goal was to follow the New York Rangers rebuild.

A Message from Glen Sather and Jeff Gorton About Our Team | New York Rangers

As a member of the Blueshirt Faithful, we consider you a part of the New York Rangers family, and always want to ensure we share important news about the organization directly with you. Today, we want to talk to you about the future.

www.nhl.com

When Gorton released this message Rangers fans freaked out about committing to the rebuild, 3 years later they were in the ECF. The Rangers succeeded despite god awful drafting from Gorton, because they fired him, committed real $ to UFAs, and found a great goalie.

The Rangers profited from players only wanting to go there.

Montreal has not had that luxury in recent memory.

Gorton also made the Zibanejad trade which is their 1st line center.
Kreider was the hold over from the previous build (Suzuki, for example).
God awful drafting from Gorton got them that goalie you are talking about, it also built out their defense with Schneider and Miller.

Adam Fox, Panarin and Trouba all forced their way to New York.

You may have thought Gorton was brought over to do a quick rebuild like that, but he wasn't. He was brought over because he oversaw that rebuild and was the one who was in charge when Boston built their core that ended up being their cup winning core. It was never about unrealistic timelines.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Genuinely, Cap space wasn’t an issue at any point of Hughes’ tenure. We have a lot of cap inefficiencies for sure — some of which were brought on by Hughes himself — but that’s not been in the way of acquiring good players (which Hughes has not been able to do). He says he wants a winning culture but doesn’t acquire good players to improve the roster and doesn’t sell Anderson to tank.

1)
The cap was not an issue? You must be kidding right?... you are the most vocal hater on Hughes on this board but you cannot be that stupid right? Please tell me how the cap was not an issue when you have no cap space and under performing players everywhere! That is a huge issue and Hughes did more than amazing by trading away Toffoli/Petry/Dadonov/Hoffman/Chiarot/Lehkonen and making sure we had enough room to manoeuvre in getting Caufield signed longterm.

2) Which cap inefficiencies exactly? Using the remaining cap space for high picks? That is not inefficiencies but masterstroke. Getting a 1st for Monahan, a 2nd for Petry, a 2nd for Edmundson, a 3rd for Pearson and not giving away anything but getting rid of Hoffman bad contract.

3) How the f*** you want him to acquire to improve the roster while rebuilding the team and then have the audacity criticizing the acquisition of Dach/Newhook. You just constantly contradict yourself. Which players he missed out exactly trading for?

4) Selling Anderson. You make it sound like there is a market. Sorry but with your constant contradiction and ranting I cannot take anything you say seriously. Let's assume Hughes giveaway Anderson+1st to get rid of him (because there is no market for him) would you say, wow what a great move from Hughes? I doubt it. Finally, even if he did trade Anderson for something valuable I have zero doubt you would say he should have got more.

I have seen so many post from you and you provide nothing smart but constant contradiction and pure hatrance. I don't mind people expecting better and wanting better from the management but you provide no example to your points and just complaint 100% of the time.

Jeez, are you related to Bergevin or what?