Post-Game Talk: Howard plays great, Wings still lose

[Kyleftlx]

I don't really buy into the idea of "losing for a decade" before winning again for every single rebuild ever. A big problem for teams that go through rebuilds is that they often had very few building blocks in place beforehand. You look at Edmonton, aside from 2006, what year were they even remotely respectable since the turn of the century? Toronto had Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, and a steaming pile of garbage around them -- and they'll honestly probably be good just 3/4 years into their specific rebuild--- although they probably have been considered a rebuild for half a century.

Detroit is a weird case because they have a lot of the pieces you're looking to get. They have two really solid goalies right now, one of which is young enough to potentially build around. Edmonton never had that, Toronto still may not have that. Carolina still doesn't realize that they don't have it. Rarely do teams entering a rebuild have a young + elite goaltender. Detroit has a lot of strong forwards - even if you don't give guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader "elite" status, they are guys you can win games with. The team is built to be very deep, the Red Wings just don't have a legitimate superstar anymore. They want Larkin to develop into that, and he very well could do that, but he can't do it by himself and he definitely can't be expected to do it before he is even legal to drink beer in the US.

I think Detroit could falter for a couple years and pick themselves back up much quicker than a 10 year rebuild. And, if they continue giving so much ice time to a broken down Zetterberg and Kronwall, trade away guys with trade value that likely aren't long term pieces anymore like Green, Vanek, Howard (if teams want him after a hot half a year right now), Smith (lol), they could potentially draft pretty high without destroying the entire roster in the process and find themselves in a spot where Zetterberg can be ready to pass the torch in a couple years and they can have a group that is able to compete again.

Who knows. Maybe I'm crazy.

 

[chances14]

this team is total denial right now. zetterberg and blashill saying they played well last night?

they were straight up garbage offensively and are 2-7-1 in their last 10 games.

 

[dragonballgtz]

newsflash....players go through ups and downs throughout the season and don't produce at the same consistent level all 82 games

You don't say

Slump or not going 12 games without a goal is inexcusable. This whole slump thing has been haunting Red Wings players for the past 6 years or so, with players like Bert, Mule, Flip, Hudler, and now Nyquist and Tatar. Granted Bert was never going to be the player he once was but he was still given top 6 IT at times. Nyquist has/had the ability to drive the offense himself, but now not so much.

Life happens. We committed to Nyquist for 4 years, it was a hopeful proposition. I think surrounded by the right players (not on the Wings, haha) the Goose could be let loose again. He kind of deserves to be on a better team, honestly. Tatar, why is there such expectation he's supposed to lead us? And hurtful emotion when he can't? He's not a core guy like Abdelkader, Nyquist, Nielsen, Helm, Ericsson, Kronwall, Zetterberg, etc. Tatar makes 2.75 mil and is a FA this spring. We've seen prospects such as Emmerton and Andersson fizzle out, not the end of the world.

His 29G season got a lot of hopes up. Giving the Red Wings that 1-2 punch offensively would make him part of the core.

Nielsen, I personally don't consider him part of the core. I view him more like a temp player that got signed for too long via a clerical error

 

[Frk It]

Detroit is a weird case because they have a lot of the pieces you're looking to get.

I'm really not sure that we do.

 

[Flowah]

I'm really not sure that we do.

We have absolutely no "elite" level talent. But we have a lot of players who look pretty good. I think Sproul looks pretty good. AA, Larkin look good. Tatar and Nyquist, despite their seasons thus far, are good players and still under 30. DK is decent.

In terms of an actual core to build from I think you're right. We have nothing. I do not see in Larkin something to build around. He looks more like he'll top out as a good 2C to me than a 1C on a contending team. Hope he proves me wrong. And obviously we have absolutely no defensive studs.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

this year so far. wo de do. Where did they finish last year again?

You mean last year when they completely blew up their roster and traded away all their assets for picks?

Are you really trying to hold their record last season against Babcock?

The plan was to finish at the bottom.

Go watch them, they will be there before we will.

By there you mean last place? Quite possibly. But they at least have a plan and a lot of young talented players. They're moving in a direction. The opposite one that the Wings are.

(And to be clear my original response was in reply to a crack about Toronto, not specifically about a rebuild philosophy. I just don't think Wings fans have a lot to point their finger and laugh about regarding the Leafs given the current state of our team)

 

[Frk It]

We have absolutely no "elite" level talent. But we have a lot of players who look pretty good. I think Sproul looks pretty good. AA, Larkin look good. Tatar and Nyquist, despite their seasons thus far, are good players and still under 30. DK is decent.

In terms of an actual core to build from I think you're right. We have nothing. I do not see in Larkin something to build around. He looks more like he'll top out as a good 2C to me than a 1C on a contending team. Hope he proves me wrong. And obviously we have absolutely no defensive studs.

Compare us to the rest of the league. All teams have at least a handful of guys that look pretty good.

I still have hope in Larkin. I'd like to see what he looks like on a team with more than 1 or 2 puck moving defenseman. Hopefully we can become that team.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I don't really buy into the idea of "losing for a decade" before winning again for every single rebuild ever. A big problem for teams that go through rebuilds is that they often had very few building blocks in place beforehand. You look at Edmonton, aside from 2006, what year were they even remotely respectable since the turn of the century? Toronto had Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, and a steaming pile of garbage around them -- and they'll honestly probably be good just 3/4 years into their specific rebuild--- although they probably have been considered a rebuild for half a century.

Detroit is a weird case because they have a lot of the pieces you're looking to get. They have two really solid goalies right now, one of which is young enough to potentially build around. Edmonton never had that, Toronto still may not have that. Carolina still doesn't realize that they don't have it. Rarely do teams entering a rebuild have a young + elite goaltender. Detroit has a lot of strong forwards - even if you don't give guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader "elite" status, they are guys you can win games with. The team is built to be very deep, the Red Wings just don't have a legitimate superstar anymore. They want Larkin to develop into that, and he very well could do that, but he can't do it by himself and he definitely can't be expected to do it before he is even legal to drink beer in the US.

I think Detroit could falter for a couple years and pick themselves back up much quicker than a 10 year rebuild. And, if they continue giving so much ice time to a broken down Zetterberg and Kronwall, trade away guys with trade value that likely aren't long term pieces anymore like Green, Vanek, Howard (if teams want him after a hot half a year right now), Smith (lol), they could potentially draft pretty high without destroying the entire roster in the process and find themselves in a spot where Zetterberg can be ready to pass the torch in a couple years and they can have a group that is able to compete again.

Who knows. Maybe I'm crazy.

It's been clear since the Nashville series when Shea Weber bashed Z's head in that this team's window had closed. Lidstrom retiring and Suter signing with Minnesota only confirmed that the most likely outcome was a steady deciline to becoming one of the worst teams in the league. That's why I wanted to get started with a youth movement the second that Nashville series was over.

They missed the boat to get started and it is going to push the rebuild back probably another 5-7 years. Should have brought up the younger guys sooner and traded Abby and Helm before they signed their new deals that make the completely untradeable. Should have brough Mrazek up rather than sign Gustavsson and then trade Howard. This isn't hindsight as I was saying it when Gustavsson was signed. I was pushing for Abby and Helm to be traded during their pending UFA offseasons.

Gus and Tomas are both guys we could have built around if we started this a few years ago. Right now they are going to be either out of the league or fading badly when we are finally ready to pull out of the tailspin. Anthony Mantha cannot make this lineup which is the worst lineup we have iced since probably the mid 80s. Does anyone really think he's not going to end up being another first rounder who disappoints? Danny Dekeyser wil be 27 when this season ends so he's probably going to be nearing the end of his career when we are hopefully good again in 2022-23.

So in short it's tough to look at this roster and say X PLAYER will be a great player in 2022-23 when we are hopefully throgh the rebuild and trending up in a big way for the first time since 2006.

You can build around Larkin and Mrazek and hope they are both only going through a sophomore slump this year and will benefit from new coaching at some point within the next couple seasons. You can hope Cholowski turns into a good hockey player. Beyond that there really isn't much you really build around based on the expectation we are going to be good again in 2022-23.

Oh yeah, 2022-23 is the last year of Justin Abdelkader's contract. No other player is currently under contract during that year. Hopefully Holland is told to cut the crap with the awful long term deals so he can't sandbag the next GM. 7 guys are currently under contract for the year following the last year on Holland's contract: Z, Neilsen, Abby, Helm, Glendening, DeKeyser, Ericsson. Neilsen and DeKeyser will probably still be NHL players. Z, Glednening, Abby, Helm and Ericsson may no longer be able to make an NHL roster, particularly with a new GM who is focused on winning and not maintaining a country club for the unofficially retired.

 

[Pavels Dog]

this team is total denial right now. zetterberg and blashill saying they played well last night?

they were straight up garbage offensively and are 2-7-1 in their last 10 games.

Last two games have been decent. 1-goal losses against some of the best teams in the league. That said, team has been overall terrible all season. My hope is running out that Blashill can get this team going. Roster is not great, but almost everyone is underperforming.

 

[Claypool]

I don't really buy into the idea of "losing for a decade" before winning again for every single rebuild ever. A big problem for teams that go through rebuilds is that they often had very few building blocks in place beforehand. You look at Edmonton, aside from 2006, what year were they even remotely respectable since the turn of the century? Toronto had Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, and a steaming pile of garbage around them -- and they'll honestly probably be good just 3/4 years into their specific rebuild--- although they probably have been considered a rebuild for half a century.

Detroit is a weird case because they have a lot of the pieces you're looking to get. They have two really solid goalies right now, one of which is young enough to potentially build around. Edmonton never had that, Toronto still may not have that. Carolina still doesn't realize that they don't have it. Rarely do teams entering a rebuild have a young + elite goaltender. Detroit has a lot of strong forwards - even if you don't give guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader "elite" status, they are guys you can win games with. The team is built to be very deep, the Red Wings just don't have a legitimate superstar anymore. They want Larkin to develop into that, and he very well could do that, but he can't do it by himself and he definitely can't be expected to do it before he is even legal to drink beer in the US.

I think Detroit could falter for a couple years and pick themselves back up much quicker than a 10 year rebuild. And, if they continue giving so much ice time to a broken down Zetterberg and Kronwall, trade away guys with trade value that likely aren't long term pieces anymore like Green, Vanek, Howard (if teams want him after a hot half a year right now), Smith (lol), they could potentially draft pretty high without destroying the entire roster in the process and find themselves in a spot where Zetterberg can be ready to pass the torch in a couple years and they can have a group that is able to compete again.

Who knows. Maybe I'm crazy.

You're assuming that development is linear and that young players always get better. Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, DeKeyser, Jurco, Mrazek, etc. were all better players just a few seasons ago. This was supposed to be the foundation for the team for the next decade. It hasn't worked. Remember Nyquist from 2012-13? Dude looked like what Mitch Marner does right now. You can't assume Marner, Matthews, Nylander, etc. are all going to keep getting better and better, too. Florida has taken major steps backwards, and Colorado looks like it's going to enter another rebuild despite landing several of top picks. Remember how exciting Nathan MacKinnon used to be?

 

[chances14]

Last two games have been decent. 1-goal losses against some of the best teams in the league. That said, team has been overall terrible all season. My hope is running out that Blashill can get this team going. Roster is not great, but almost everyone is underperforming.

last game was horrible considering Washington played with only three lines the last 2 periods. they got very little going offensively

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I wish we had a different coach than Blashill. I didn't think he was going to coach with exactly the same "roll 3 1/2 scoring lines even though we have only enough talent for 1 1/2" mindset.

Why are we not running a high-powered top six and a defensive bottom six? That's what this team is basically built for.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

You don't say

Slump or not going 12 games without a goal is inexcusable. This whole slump thing has been haunting Red Wings players for the past 6 years or so, with players like Bert, Mule, Flip, Hudler, and now Nyquist and Tatar. Granted Bert was never going to be the player he once was but he was still given top 6 IT at times. Nyquist has/had the ability to drive the offense himself, but now not so much.

It "haunts" secondary players, on every team in the league. 40-50 point players are 40-50 point players because they have hot streaks and cold streaks. And every team in the league has 40-50 point players.

Who have hot streaks and cold streaks.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I wish we had a different coach than Blashill. I didn't think he was going to coach with exactly the same "roll 3 1/2 scoring lines even though we have only enough talent for 1 1/2" mindset.

Why are we not running a high-powered top six and a defensive bottom six? That's what this team is basically built for.

What does a "high-powered" top 6 look like for us?

Z-Nielsen-Tatar
Nyquist-Larkin-Mantha

Something like that? Basically what we've been running. Nah depth is the only strength this team has and it's concerning that no one barely manages to look good from a 3rd or 4th line.

 

[jkutswings]

I still have hope in Larkin. I'd like to see what he looks like on a team with more than 1 or 2 puck moving defenseman. Hopefully we can become that team.

Unfortunately, it's looking like either he would have to be traded to acquire a decent defenseman, or you're going to be waiting at least a few more years for a Cholo or another project guy to round into form.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Tatar is pure and utter garbage. Then Blashill puts him back out last minute of the game. Bench his lazy ***.

Yeah for someone who's playing in a contract year, Tatar has been a major disappointment thus far he'll be lucky if he gets $4 million per in his next contract.

 

[odin1981]

Yeah for someone who's playing in a contract year, Tatar has been a major disappointment thus far he'll be lucky if he gets $4 million per in his next contract.

Given the plethora of cap mistakes on this team is that honestly a bad problem if he plays himself down to middle 6 salary range instead of top 6?

 

[Ezekial]

I know I'm biased because I love the kid, but I feel really bad for Tats. He's been doing a lot of good little stuff out there he just can't score to save his life.

 

[Goalie guy]

You mean last year when they completely blew up their roster and traded away all their assets for picks?

Are you really trying to hold their record last season against Babcock?

The plan was to finish at the bottom.



By there you mean last place? Quite possibly. But they at least have a plan and a lot of young talented players. They're moving in a direction. The opposite one that the Wings are.

(And to be clear my original response was in reply to a crack about Toronto, not specifically about a rebuild philosophy. I just don't think Wings fans have a lot to point their finger and laugh about regarding the Leafs given the current state of our team)

No they will win a cup long before we do.

I know I'm biased because I love the kid, but I feel really bad for Tats. He's been doing a lot of good little stuff out there he just can't score to save his life.

What are all of theses little things hes doing well? Turning the puck over at the worst time in the worst spots? losing puck battles? throwing blind passes all over the place?

 

[chris05]

It "haunts" secondary players, on every team in the league. 40-50 point players are 40-50 point players because they have hot streaks and cold streaks. And every team in the league has 40-50 point players.

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Everything is "relative"...relative to who...... AA has been on a cold streak since he has arrived at the nhl level.....gets cold sitting on the bench.... yet he scores big time goals against stiff competition and with style. Some players just have the ability to take over a game when given the opportunity and others well they wish they had the ability of a "GREEK GOD".