How Would Canadas Second Team Do vs Non Usa Canada Competition

[Summer Rose]

It’s not like the US has had that many bad finishes, but when they’re bad, they’re BAD. Looking at you 2014 Olympic Team and 2016 World Cup.

They just always come short against Canada in the big ones (2002, 2010, 2025)

I agree with you about the 2016 World Cup, but the selectors made some very questionable decisions. Remember when Phil Kessel made that hilarious tweet during one of the games about sitting at home with his dog? The existence of team North America definitely hurt us too. It hurt Canada too, but we’re not deep enough on talent to give up our U23 players and get away with it like Canada can.

I wouldn’t say 2014 was that bad. Not necessarily good, but not bad either. We got past Russia in a shootout by spamming TJ Oshie, then got edged out by Canada where the only goal of the game was a somewhat flukey deflection. However, our performance (or more accurately, lack thereof) in the bronze medal game against Finland was nothing short of embarrassing.

You could argue that 2006 was worse based on where we got eliminated. The quarterfinal was a one-goal game against Finland, though it was 4-2 after two periods so we kind of dug ourselves into a hole before clawing one back. Finland eventually went on to shut out Russia and give Sweden a tight game for the gold medal.

In 2002 I was new to hockey so I don’t remember much about it. Just hanging on by a thread to get past Russia and then coming up short against Canada for gold, but if my memory serves me well, Canada pretty much outclassed us more or less from start to finish in the gold medal game.

1998 I didn’t watch so I have no comment, then 2018 and 2022 lacked NHL players entirely and like I said about the 2016 World Cup, we don’t have enough depth of talent to get away with it. We had to bring in an aging Brian Gionta who wasn’t even playing anywhere that season. As for the 2004 World Cup, I missed a lot of the games. I remember the Canada-Finland game being a banger and that’s about it.

That is my attempt to defend the US. A couple excuses and not a very good defense, I’ll admit, which is a is a reasonable assessment of the senior men’s team: all in all, we don’t have a large amount of depth like Canada does, and we like to come up short in big games.

 

[NVious]

So the Czech eliminating Canada in back to back Quarter finals tells you what then?

Back to the big boys... USA hasn't won a senior event since 1996. They actually have to win something to be declared the best.

That Canada can lose if they f*** around with their selections like this year. What do the 4 golds for USA/4 for Canada/2 for Finland and 0 for everyone else tell you? Nothing?

I never said they were the best. You can look at the awards won and award trends:

1 Vezina 84-05
5 Vezinas 05-25 (gonna be 6 this year)

2 Norris 84-05
2 Norris 05-25 (good chance for 3 this year)

1 Rocket 84-05
3 Rockets 05-25

1 Smythe 84-05
3 Smythes 05-25

0 Harts 84-05
2 Harts 05-25

It's pretty clear America has taken a massive step forward and nobody's gonna catch them, Czech/Sweden/Finland are too small of countries and Russia has had their chance. America's population is going to continue to increase massively and Hockey will only get more popular.

America had a good foundation in Hockey markets, then Gretzky created the next boom, then expansion laid the groundworks in many different places and we're now starting to see the fruits. Nothing like that exists in other countries and my prognostication is truly the most basic when you factor in what I said, nothing at all extraordinary required, just population boom and popularity boom coupled with the increased success of the USA Hockey in general.

 

[Czechboy]

That Canada can lose if they f*** around with their selections like this year. What do the 4 golds for USA/4 for Canada/2 for Finland and 0 for everyone else tell you? Nothing?

So they can send 2 teams but if they send the wrong selection they will lose? Strange. Imagine losing in quarters and posting about how 2 of your teams could beat everyone but America.

My answer is nothing to both btw. I don't think the Czechs winning 2 quarters in a row means much at all. It's nice and encouraging for sure but you need NHL players to win best on bests. Of the 3 nations winning those golds, only one has won a best on best in the 2000's. Maybe the next several best on bests are dominated by Finland, Canada and USA but I'll say I'm skeptical.

The rest of your arguments about international hockey are talking about NHL stats and NHL awards. I'm talking international hockey and you are talking all star NHL teams.

I agree it's a great program with great players but when the best on bests happen it isn't always Canada vs USA. The medal table from the 5 best on bests (20 years of data) had a very wide medal table. Canada was on top but even they didn't medal twice in 5 tournaments. International hockey always has suprises. Always has and always will. Not a 2 nation sport by any means. Canada is absolutely on top. Even if they lose in 2026 they will be on top. USA wants to win 2026 and 2028 then we can talk. By 'win' I mean the Olympic Gold and World Cup Gold. Not the U18's, U20's and Vezinas.

To put simply if the finals of those next 2 are Canada/US while the rest of the world fights for Bronze, then I'll concede.

 

[Lumber]

In short tournaments anything can happen. Getting knocked out in the 1/4 final looks bad in the final placement but it's irrelevant in many ways. A hot goalie, a couple of injuries, the bounce of a puck, a bad call can make all the difference which is why you play a best of 7 in the NHL (well money too lol). On another matter I don't think that anyone can argue that the most recent Canadian junior team was poorly selected and poorly coached. What does it prove, exactly that. Other teams at the tournament played better hockey.

 

[NVious]

So they can send 2 teams but if they send the wrong selection they will lose? Strange. Imagine losing in quarters and posting about how 2 of your teams could beat everyone but America.

My answer is nothing to both btw. I don't think the Czechs winning 2 quarters in a row means much at all. It's nice and encouraging for sure but you need NHL players to win best on bests. Of the 3 nations winning those golds, only one has won a best on best in the 2000's. Maybe the next several best on bests are dominated by Finland, Canada and USA but I'll say I'm skeptical.

The rest of your arguments about international hockey are talking about NHL stats and NHL awards. I'm talking international hockey and you are talking all star NHL teams.

I agree it's a great program with great players but when the best on bests happen it isn't always Canada vs USA. The medal table from the 5 best on bests (20 years of data) had a very wide medal table. Canada was on top but even they didn't medal twice in 5 tournaments. International hockey always has suprises. Always has and always will. Not a 2 nation sport by any means. Canada is absolutely on top. Even if they lose in 2026 they will be on top. USA wants to win 2026 and 2028 then we can talk. By 'win' I mean the Olympic Gold and World Cup Gold. Not the U18's, U20's and Vezinas.

To put simply if the finals of those next 2 are Canada/US while the rest of the world fights for Bronze, then I'll concede.

Now the world juniors=men's level lol, Canada could've literally had Bedard and Celebrini on this team, do you think that would've influenced the result? Strange you bring up 2 bad results for Canada but ignore their good results and then think that taking 2 bad results from a non perfect junior team is analogous to the men's team.

Yeah that makes sense, nothing to say because if you did want to draw a conclusion, it's not looking good for the rest of the world. You can be skeptical all you like, but that's just a word. The facts are America has objectively reached new heights in the world juniors, Americans going from 2% of NHL in 1970 to 15% 1990 to 28% now and having American top players winning more awards or winning awards never won before. Meanwhile other countries are handicapped by way lower population and nothing new in the Hockey scene, stagnation or even regression in some cases (Russia % of NHL has declined, Czech Republic, Slovakia as well).

Yeah it has surprises because it's one game, I'm talking about the overall result and trajectory. Canada and the US have pulled away from everyone and this is likely to continue. The infrastructure, population and established culture dictate this and it's shown in the awards, world juniors and recent best on best results.

Going back to the subject at hand, as I said and the point still stands:

If other countries with worse top end talent and worse depth can give Canada/US games, why wouldn't a 2nd Canadian team with worse top end talent but better depth be able to give them games?

 

[Czechboy]

In short tournaments anything can happen. Getting knocked out in the 1/4 final looks bad in the final placement but it's irrelevant in many ways. A hot goalie, a couple of injuries, the bounce of a puck, a bad call can make all the difference which is why you play a best of 7 in the NHL (well money too lol). On another matter I don't think that anyone can argue that the most recent Canadian junior team was poorly selected and poorly coached. What does it prove, exactly that. Other teams at the tournament played better hockey.

Nothing. Which was exactly my point. But letting me know the USA has won 4 of 10 is just as irrelevant.

 

[NVious]

Nothing. Which was exactly my point. But letting me know the USA has won 4 of 10 is just as irrelevant.

No it's not irrelevant lmfao, the world juniors is where the best junior players go generally minus the best 1-2 Canadians and the occasional US/non US player.

It is a great litmus test for the health of a country's Hockey program, the fact that the last 10 years it's been USA and Canada and the occasional Fin win says a lot. The rest of the world has fallen behind and it's not like Non North Americans are setting the NHL on fire either.

By all metrics:
Population
Sport popularity and future popularity
Sport infrastructure and future infrastructure
% of NHL
Winners of major awards
World Juniors

It's showing a two horse race and again my point stands about Canadas second team.