How would another Stanley Cup Final loss impact McDavid's legacy?

[PistolPete]

Does it change things that this isn't a David vs Goliath matchup? Everyone picked Detroit in 08. Not everyone is picking Florida here. In fact, I've seen more pick Edmonton.

Wasn't applying it specifically to this year but a general problem with the "He won/never won..." metric

 

[Sol]

The Oilers have built their kingdom on the back of McDavid alone. There is no doubt that his legacy will always be one of the greatest players of all time.

 

[The don godfather]

I'll LMAO if McDavid loses another cup chance that's bottom of the barrel back to back losses in finals that will sting him forever. All pressure on him on Edmonton florida is loosy goosy here dangerous combination.

 

[PistolPete]

It does since if Bourque won, say, 4 cups and a couple of Conn Smythes he would be held in even higher regard than now.

 Nah

Bourque was regarded as the best for most of his career, to the point of he was at risk either waynit'd he towards the overrated end of the spectrum (not saying he is but to highlight how highly regarded he has always been)

 

[nbwingsfan]

He will still be a top 10 forward of all time. He won't be top 5 without a cup.

A cup is absolutely necessary to be considered top 5. And that's not my opinion. That's every media member & historian.

Let’s imagine a wild scenario where McDavid is absolutely brutal this series. Like zero points in 7 games, liability all over the ice.

But

Skinner goes beast mode and the oilers win a cup.

How does this impact his legacy in a better way than say if he put up say 13pts in 6 games but skinner had a tremendous .810sv% and the Oilers lost?

 

[PistolPete]

Let’s imagine a wild scenario where McDavid is absolutely brutal this series. Like zero points in 7 games, liability all over the ice.

But

Skinner goes beast mode and the oilers win a cup.

How does this impact his legacy in a better way than say if he put up say 13pts in 6 games but skinner had a tremendous .810sv% and the Oilers lost?

Wouldn't change things either way.

Expecting a player to perform in every single series is unrealistic.

 

[Romang67]

Let’s imagine a wild scenario where McDavid is absolutely brutal this series. Like zero points in 7 games, liability all over the ice.

But

Skinner goes beast mode and the oilers win a cup.

How does this impact his legacy in a better way than say if he put up say 13pts in 6 games but skinner had a tremendous .810sv% and the Oilers lost?

Haters will move the goalposts, but I do think some people would point to McDavid's cup winning 26 points in 23 games as evidence that he's one of the greats, after previously not believing so because he hadn't won the cup.

Realistically, he still pots another couple of assists if he has an awful series, and then you're looking at a stat line of around 30 points in 23 games.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Haters will move the goalposts, but I do think some people would point to McDavid's cup winning 26 points in 23 games as evidence that he's one of the greats, after previously not believing so because he hadn't won the cup.

Realistically, he still pots another couple of assists if he has an awful series, and then you're looking at a stat line of around 30 points in 23 games.

Which is where the “needs to win a cup” argument falls apart IMO, because as great as a stat line of 30 in 23 and a Cup win would look, a stat line of 39 in 22 is simply much better and shows another level of dominance.

But I’m sure the haters would say the .810sv% was his fault somehow, like they were in the early stages of the LA vs EDM series.

These are of course the same people who placed the first game loss on McDavid because his four points weren’t spread out over the whole game

 

[Hull2Roenick2Kane]

If McDavid cannot win a stanley cup then he will be the Jim Kelly of the NHL.

 

[Electric Blue]

He plays his heart out in the playoffs year after year. It’s not like he turns into a ghost during playoffs like Matthews. If anything he seems to play even better.

Losing the finals again does no damage to his reputation as the greatest player to ever play the game. Winning many cups would however make his GOATness even more apparent.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

If he didn't perform in the playoffs it would impact for sure, but being top 3 in NHL history in playoff PPG, having the most assists in the single playoff year in NHL history, and being a playoff MVP, is performing about as good as anyone has ever done. Hopefully he wins it so I can stop reading about guys who barely score over a point per game in the playoffs are claimed to be these unstoppable, clutch warriors that will their team to winning the Stanley Cup, when in reality they play on much stronger rosters and would struggle to even make the playoffs if they played on the Oilers and would have zero chance of winning the Cup.

 

[Fatass]

If he didn't perform in the playoffs it would impact for sure, but being top 3 in NHL history in playoff PPG, having the most assists in the single playoff year in NHL history, and being a playoff MVP, is performing about as good as anyone has ever done. Hopefully he wins it so I can stop reading about guys who barely score over a point per game in the playoffs are claimed to be these unstoppable, clutch warriors that will their team to winning the Stanley Cup, when in reality they play on much stronger rosters and would struggle to even make the playoffs if they played on the Oilers and would have zero chance of winning the Cup.

Maybe, if McDavid wins the Cup this year, we will have a thread discussing how this achievement solidifies him as top 5 all time?

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

Let’s imagine a wild scenario where McDavid is absolutely brutal this series. Like zero points in 7 games, liability all over the ice.

But

Skinner goes beast mode and the oilers win a cup.

How does this impact his legacy in a better way than say if he put up say 13pts in 6 games but skinner had a tremendous .810sv% and the Oilers lost?

The first bolded would affect the second bolded (legacy) tremendously. No matter that McDavid was pedestrian.

Crosby was okay in the 09 SCF. He won though. People would most certainly be talking about Crosby much differently had he not won a cup.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

Wasn't applying it specifically to this year but a general problem with the "He won/never won..." metric

I'm not the one who decided one time long ago that a cup carries so much weight. But it does.

Unfortunately

 

[Crosby2010]

I am not nearly the NBA fan I was 20 years ago but I did follow the league fairly religiously for many years. The NBA tends to have one or two great teams at a time and it makes it a challenge for others to break in against them. Typically 2 great players and at least one first rate supporting player is needed to win in the NBA and if a team has that their chances are excellent. That just won't cut it in the NHL. But even in the NBA if you have a couple of top end talents it still does not guarantee you will win. Timing matters. Utah had Stockton and Malone at the same time but they ran into some truly exceptional teams so even with a couple of guys who would be around top 20 all time they still could not win. This was not a flaw with either player. When the opposition has Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen with support from guys like Rodman and Kerr with wily old vet like Parrish coming off the bench that is not something two guys can overcome.

The NHL has structures in place that make it tough to have both great players and depth. The salary cap makes teams like the 80's Oilers or the 70's Canadians virtually impossible to field for any extended time. Timing can sometimes help, as it did for Colorado in 2022. It is no coincidence that once MacKinnon got paid the Avs went from a juggernaut to just another very good team. Had his deal been one year shorter, Colorado probably does not win that cup. Bad management together with a flat cap really hampered the Oilers in building around McDavid and Draisaitl. People can stigmatize either player all they want but short of Gretzky or Lemieux I have absolutely no doubt that that the Oilers would not have won had some other player been in place of McDavid. Of course I can't prove this so there we are.

You're probably right. McDavid had 42 points last spring. The two players who literally did more than that in one spring are the ones you mentioned, Gretzky and Lemieux. I think in the modern era you have to be craftier as a player to maintain great teams. You are right about MacKinnon. I did a playoff pool and I picked Dallas to beat Colorado simply because they had better depth and the Avs have not been great since 2022. Just good. And yes, that coincided with the insane money MacKinnon started making. Crosby and even Malkin seemed to have taken hometown discounts. That helped. Three Cups later I doubt they would disagree.

 

[Fourier]

You're probably right. McDavid had 42 points last spring. The two players who literally did more than that in one spring are the ones you mentioned, Gretzky and Lemieux. I think in the modern era you have to be craftier as a player to maintain great teams. You are right about MacKinnon. I did a playoff pool and I picked Dallas to beat Colorado simply because they had better depth and the Avs have not been great since 2022. Just good. And yes, that coincided with the insane money MacKinnon started making. Crosby and even Malkin seemed to have taken hometown discounts. That helped. Three Cups later I doubt they would disagree.

The rules changed though since Crosby signed. The first 8 years of his deal would have been at a $10.8M AVV with a cap ceiling of $64M. It was not nearly the discount that they are often given credit for. Malkin took $9.5 on his 8 year deal. In 2018-2019 dollars that would be about $11M in 2018-2019 dollars, which is when McDavid signed. As good as Malikn was at that stage he was not at the same level as McDavid and that deal was his third contract.

 

[nbwingsfan]

The first bolded would affect the second bolded (legacy) tremendously. No matter that McDavid was pedestrian.

Crosby was okay in the 09 SCF. He won though. People would most certainly be talking about Crosby much differently had he not won a cup.

Yes because Crosby didn’t dominate the playoffs in ways that McDavid has.

How exactly would being a liability in a win be better than being the best player on the ice every game in a SCF loss? It makes no sense

 

[Tryblot]

I understand the main concept that you are presenting here.

But you are comparing Dionne/Perreault with Risebrough/Jarvis. Hall-of-Famers with 3rd-liners. Apples-to-oranges.

This thread is about McDavid's legacy. The thread title states "legacy".

This normally translates to "All time standing".

So, instead of comparing apples-to-oranges, compare apples-to-apples.

Compare McDavid to Crosby, for example.

Similar to how Marcel Dionne and Gilbert Perreault will never be held in as high regard as Guy Lafleur, I don't think McDavid will ever be held in as high regard as Crosby if McDavid can't ever win the Stanley Cup.

He doesn't have to win it this year. If he loses it this year again, people won't necessarily hold it against him as long as he can win it some year.

But if he finishes with 0 Stanley Cups? Then yes, his legacy suffers when comparing him against other all-time greats.

And I think that is fair, since all the legends and all-time greats before him were also judged by whether they won the Stanley Cup or not.

Crosby, Ovechkin, Lemieux, Gretzky, etc. They were all judged differently before they won the Stanley Cup. They all needed that Stanley Cup win to cement their legacy. Why make different rules for McDavid?

Perfectly said.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

Yes because Crosby didn’t dominate the playoffs in ways that McDavid has.

How exactly would being a liability in a win be better than being the best player on the ice every game in a SCF loss? It makes no sense

Nope.

But most do look at cups.

It's not fair. It's just life

 

[crazyhawk]

I'll LMAO if McDavid loses another cup chance that's bottom of the barrel back to back losses in finals that will sting him forever. All pressure on him on Edmonton florida is loosy goosy here dangerous combination.

Or he'll/they'll be possessed with an inextinguishable fire that will propel them through on their mission.
Pressure does create diamonds.

 

[The don godfather]

Or he'll/they'll be possessed with an inextinguishable fire that will propel them through on their mission.
Pressure does create diamonds.

Will see its Edmonton cup to lose. Florida with house money here.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Nope.

But most do look at cups.

It's not fair. It's just life

People with very little comprehension of hockey and who’s opinions really wouldn’t matter, sure.

Bourque winning a Cup in his last season had little to no relevance to his placement on the top D to ever play lists.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

People with very little comprehension of hockey and who’s opinions really wouldn’t matter, sure.

Bourque winning a Cup in his last season had little to no relevance to his placement on the top D to ever play lists.

Again, I agree with what you are saying.

I'm just pointing out what most look for

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

He has been underwhelming tonight.

 

[PistolPete]

Maybe, if McDavid wins the Cup this year, we will have a thread discussing how this achievement solidifies him as top 5 all time?

Nope.

Halo Edfect isa non-rhinking exercise