How would another Stanley Cup Final loss impact McDavid's legacy?

[Oak]

Zero impact. Hockey is a team game. Doesn't change how great of a player he is.

 

[avocadosmoothie]

Howe may possibly become one of the most overrated players in hockey history

 

[Lumber]

With the risk of starting a war I find that this point of view is really an American take on hockey. The idea that one guy has to win it all or his career is shit is ridiculous. McDavid has already cemented his reputation as one of the greatest players of all time, the best ever if you subscribe to the bigger, faster, stronger mantra of sports. Watch him play, watch what he does on the ice. The rest is all about sports talk show hosts and writers looking to fill time and space. Read a good book instead.

 

[BoHorvat 53]

I would say it impacts his legacy positively still - making the dance is still an achievement.

 

[pi314]

Is this where HF pretends winning the cup is some afterthought?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Howe may possibly become one of the most overrated players in hockey history

Second greatest player of all time. Closer to 1 than to 5.

 

[PistolPete]

With the risk of starting a war I find that this point of view is really an American take on hockey. The idea that one guy has to win it all or his career is shit is ridiculous. McDavid has already cemented his reputation as one of the greatest players of all time, the best ever if you subscribe to the bigger, faster, stronger mantra of sports. Watch him play, watch what he does on the ice. The rest is all about sports talk show hosts and writers looking to fill time and space. Read a good book instead.

I would say more of an NBA thing than American per se.

NFL fans bring up SB rings in the same manner as NHL fans but NBA debates bring them up as if they are truly an individual accomplishment. I hate basketball debates- they kill brain cells.

 

[PistolPete]

Second greatest player of all time. Closer to 1 than to 5.

He was a Crosby, Messier, Lindros, Gainey, Gillies, Schultz all in one.

You needed a goal?
You needed a man on the boards?
You needed a defensive shut down?
You needed a deft pass?
You needed someone to send a message to the other team to check themselves?
You needed a player to just be utterly miserable to ay against?
He was the most feared and respected player all at the same time.

To me, a person can make a strong case for Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, and Orr as GPAT

Everyone else amongst the greats is the next tier down.

 

[landy]

With the risk of starting a war I find that this point of view is really an American take on hockey. The idea that one guy has to win it all or his career is shit is ridiculous. McDavid has already cemented his reputation as one of the greatest players of all time, the best ever if you subscribe to the bigger, faster, stronger mantra of sports. Watch him play, watch what he does on the ice. The rest is all about sports talk show hosts and writers looking to fill time and space. Read a good book instead.

lol wut? How is this American/Canadian at all? Every "Great' has a Cup. Do you think Dionne. Bure, Iginla, Thornton, and Luongo would be a few notches higher on all time lists with a Cup(s)? Of course! Same goes for McDavid. No one is saying his career is shit, merely that if he never wins a Cup, we can make an argument that he is "only" a top 20 or top 10 player when his career is done instead of kicking off Howe/Orr off Mt Rushmore if he does get Cups.

 

[PistolPete]

lol wut? How is this American/Canadian at all? Every "Great' has a Cup. Do you think Dionne. Bure, Iginla, Thornton, and Luongo would be a few notches higher on all time lists with a Cup(s)? Of course! Same goes for McDavid. No one is saying his career is shit, merely that if he never wins a Cup, we can make an argument that he is "only" a top 20 or top 10 player when his career is done instead of kicking off Howe/Orr off Mt Rushmore if he does get Cups.

NBA fans and pundits take it to a whole new level of annoying donkeys.

If you have never won a ring you're persona non grata never mind a notch below.

 

[landy]

NBA fans and pundits take it to a whole new level of annoying donkeys.

If you have never won a ring you're persona non grata never mind a notch below.

Wut?

This really isnt complicated. You have championships and youre ranked higher. Why is this so hard to understand? All sports are like this.

 

[PistolPete]

Wut?

This really isnt complicated. You have championships and youre ranked higher. Why is this so hard to understand? All sports are like this.

Have you ever seen an NBA debate?

It's not merely a matter of ranking higher, it's you're wiped off the board entirely as if you were a journeyman plug.

 

[daver]

I agree with you. I don't blame McDavid in the least last year, and he did play well in game 7.

Still - for a player of his caliber - a potential top ~5-10 player of all-time, if not higher - after such an insane finals - being shutout in games 6 and 7 opened the door to at least a few critics, who called him out on it.

So - if the scenario were to repeat itself almost exactly the same way - a great finals by McDavid, but gettig shutout in last 2 games in losses - it would just open the door that much more for further criticism around him not being able to get the job done to finish off a cup win.

But I mean - there's a million different ways the finals can play out. We can't analyze/predict every scenario possible and what it would do for his legacy.

For what it's worth - I expect a monster finals by both McDavid and Drai, an Oilers win, and a second consecutive Smythe by McDavid. But - we'll see.

Fair or not, winning takes care of everything. He would have been highly critiqued if Team Canada lost to the US in the FN final as he did not play particularly well in that game. Instead he got somewhat lucky by being left in the slot all alone. It really parallelled Crosby's Golden goal as he would have taken a lot of heat if the US had won that game.

Crosby was critiqued for being "shutdown" in the 2008 SCF even though it was more on Malkin not producing. IMO, in 2008 Crosby was as good as McDavid was in 2024 in terms of positioning his team to win but both ultimately left the door open for critique as their teams lost. The majority give Crosby give full credit for winning in 2009, as, IMO, he had the best 3 round performance since Wayne/Mario.

If the Oilers win, I am sure it will be due to a continued team effort and good goaltending that may, or may not, see McDavid as being the clear best Oiler but that should matter very little in how a Cup win affects his legacy.

 

[daver]

Howe may possibly become one of the most overrated players in hockey history

He played 70 years ago. He is either already overrated or rated reasonably. He will be the Babe Ruth of hockey.

Too many people are waiting to claim McDavid as being on Wayne/Mario level when it is pretty easy to compare him to more recent players like Crosby and Jagr who then can be compared to Wayne and Mario.

Mario's playoff resume isn't necessarily as untouchable as his regular season exploits are. Neither is Orr's for that matter. They both won enough and had playoff individual runs that were close to their regular season level of dominance but they are a bit lacking in comparison to other greats.

But I don't think you would take any other players in NHL history besides Wayne if you want to make a Cup run.

 

[Lumber]

lol wut? How is this American/Canadian at all? Every "Great' has a Cup. Do you think Dionne. Bure, Iginla, Thornton, and Luongo would be a few notches higher on all time lists with a Cup(s)? Of course! Same goes for McDavid. No one is saying his career is shit, merely that if he never wins a Cup, we can make an argument that he is "only" a top 20 or top 10 player when his career is done instead of kicking off Howe/Orr off Mt Rushmore if he does get Cups.

I rest my case.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

I would say it impacts his legacy positively still - making the dance is still an achievement.

He will still be a top 10 forward of all time. He won't be top 5 without a cup.

A cup is absolutely necessary to be considered top 5. And that's not my opinion. That's every media member & historian.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

He would be viewed as unlucky, that he might've beat a Carolina or New York, that running into a repeat champ is just what happens sometimes.

 

[Fig]

With the Panthers and Oilers facing off again in the Stanley Cup Final, and if Florida wins.. how do you think that impacts Connor McDavid's ultimate hockey legacy? Will he still be seen as an all-time legend if he can't win the biggest prize, even if it's not entirely his fault?

Use Bourque as a comparable. It doesn't matter at all as long as he wins one by the end of his career.

There's other HOFers that have never won. Lots of what ifs, but if he never wins it won't detract from the fact he's an amazing player. It might keep him out of the top 10, but it's just a small piece to bump him down a few slots in the rankings. It's not like he'd tumble out of the top 100 of all time because no cup.

 

[NVious]

McDavid himself took the Panthers to 7 where Drai was basically (due to injuries) a warm body 3rd/4th liner (0 goals/3 assists in 7 games).

McDrai are not going to be beaten.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Crosby was critiqued for being "shutdown" in the 2008 SCF even though it was more on Malkin not producing.

I wouldn’t say 6 points in six games is underperforming at all, but he could have done more to lift his team. The Pens didn’t have a chance with Malkin underperforming so no one really blames Crosby for that loss. The ‘shut down’ criticism faintly comes from the following year, despite the win. That’s because statistically speaking, he was shut down by the Wings.

I would rank 2009 and 2024 like this:

Round one: Crosby = Mcdavid
Round two: Crosby > McDavid
Round three: McDavid > Crosby
Final: McDavid > Crosby

It’s close, but yes, Crosby has a solid case for the best first three round prefomance in the 21st century.

 

[PistolPete]

I wouldn’t say 6 points in six games is underperforming at all, but he could have done more to lift his team. The Pens didn’t have a chance with Malkin underperforming so no one really blames Crosby for that loss.

(A preface:
Not a criticism of your post or such but just using it as an example of a common discussion point on the issue. It highlights it perfectly. So please don't feel like I'm going after your post)

This here is a perfect example/explanation for why using Cups as a metric for individual success is seriously flawed.

Had 6 points in 6 games BUT could have done more to lift his team (I'm sure something assumed by many just because of the loss, had they won....)

Was it Crosby's fault or was it Malkin's fault? Maybe Fleury's fault? Maybe the entire team?

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

(A preface:
Not a criticism of your post or such but just using it as an example of a common discussion point on the issue. It highlights it perfectly. So please don't feel like I'm going after your post)

This here is a perfect example/explanation for why using Cups as a metric for individual success is seriously flawed.

Had 6 points in 6 games BUT could have done more to lift his team (I'm sure something assumed by many just because of the loss, had they won....)

Was it Crosby's fault or was it Malkin's fault? Maybe Fleury's fault? Maybe the entire team?

It was Detroit's fault. Pittsburgh was lucky it went six. This was kind of a David vs Goliath matchup.

 

[PistolPete]

It was Detroit's fault. Pittsburgh was lucky it went six. This was kind of a David vs Goliath matchup.

Y'all see?!

Malkin's fault
No it's Crosby's fault
Nope, Detroit was just too good for them to win.
It was the coaching

The ad hoc explanations for the results are endless, yet it is still insisted by the media pundits and many fans that Cups be used as a metric.

And then on top of this there's the Halo Effect....

 

[psycat]

Use Bourque as a comparable. It doesn't matter at all as long as he wins one by the end of his career.

There's other HOFers that have never won. Lots of what ifs, but if he never wins it won't detract from the fact he's an amazing player. It might keep him out of the top 10, but it's just a small piece to bump him down a few slots in the rankings. It's not like he'd tumble out of the top 100 of all time because no cup.

It does since if Bourque won, say, 4 cups and a couple of Conn Smythes he would be held in even higher regard than now.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

Y'all see?!

Malkin's fault
No it's Crosby's fault
Nope, Detroit was just too good for them to win.
It was the coaching

The ad hoc explanations for the results are endless, yet it is still insisted by the media pundits and many fans that Cups be used as a metric.

And then on top of this there's the Halo Effect....

Does it change things that this isn't a David vs Goliath matchup? Everyone picked Detroit in 08. Not everyone is picking Florida here. In fact, I've seen more pick Edmonton.