How would another Stanley Cup Final loss impact McDavid's legacy?

[Fatass]

IMO this is how it is:

His first six years in the league were cementing his status in a new big five alongside Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Lemieux. That he was on that level was fairly obvious based on eye test and his numbers relative to the team around him.

2022-2024 McDavid broke out past Lemieux based on the 150 point year, and having three enormous playoff runs in terms of offensive production. A single player doing those kinds of top 0.5% things over multiple years is much harder in the current era where opponents have detailed defensive schemes updated before every game to zero in on anyone who is on a hot streak. In Lemieuxs era, just implementing a single defensive system like the trap or the left wing lock was adequate to take a contender from the first round to the cup.

But, if the Oilers lose in the finals, and he's not at least good this time, I think there'd be evidence to slide McDavid back down to the #5 slot. Performance as you get closer to the cup matters, just not enough to be the only thing.

I do like how you tier the greatest. There’s a top five and then the next five. For me, McDavid is in the next five. Without leading his club to a Cup he’s at 10, if the two top tiers are combined. If he leads the Oilers to this Cup he’s moves up, but still doesn’t jump into the top five tier. All opinion of course.

 

[daver]

Tier A Gretzky Lemieux
Tier B McDavid
Tier C Jagr Crosby

the narrative that McDavid needs a cup to be considered...... is set
up by AntiMcDavids Connorphobics statsdeniers and such

How is McDavid on another tier from those two?

And no, throwing out PPGs and point totals with no context is not an argument.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I do like how you tier the greatest. There’s a top five and then the next five. For me, McDavid is in the next five. Without leading his club to a Cup he’s at 10, if the two top tiers are combined. If he leads the Oilers to this Cup he’s moves up, but still doesn’t jump into the top five tier. All opinion of course.

A second Smythe certainly puts McDavid close to the top 5, pending a higher placement based on his remaining legacy, as only 4 skaters and 2 goalies have won it twice or more, on top of his other trophies, milestones, records and achievements so far. Anything less, and one needs to dig for arguments that rely on situational and historical factors that have either evolved or are of the "first there" variety. Nostalgia is one of the biggest biases that exists in GOAT debates across most sports.

 

[M Ace]

I think if he repeats winning the Conn Smythe if Florida repeats as Cup champs, it would actually enhance his legacy. Only 5 players besides him have ever accomplished it once. Being the only player to do so twice would be historic. Him doing so twice in a row would be legendary.

There's a very real chance of this happening.

Imagine he goes supernova with 20 points in 7 games against FLA

Only a fool would put Ovechkin ahead of McDavid.

This is why using Cups as a metric is a serious cognitive and logical flaw in reasoning and argument.

Then Dave Lumley and Lee Fogolin would be better than McDavid.....

 

[Fatass]

A second Smythe certainly puts McDavid close to the top 5, pending a higher placement based on his remaining legacy, as only 4 skaters and 2 goalies have won it twice or more, on top of his other trophies, milestones, records and achievements so far. Anything less, and one needs to dig for arguments that rely on situational and historical factors that have either evolved or are of the "first there" variety. Nostalgia is one of the biggest biases that exists in GOAT debates across most sports.

I think we can include recency bias and love of one’s team as influences too.
Having McDavid in the top five tier (providing he leads his club to the Cup) is fine. But it’s certainly an opinion, regardless of what measure we use.
There have been few players I paid money to watch live. Orr, Guy, Perrault, Wayne, Mario, Bure. I’m definitely going to go see McDavid. He’s worth the price of admission.
The Cup though (imo) is needed to move him up from 10.

 

[Fatass]

Imagine he goes supernova with 20 points in 7 games against FLA

Then Dave Lumley and Lee Fogolin would be better than McDavid.....

This is why using Cups for guys who aren’t in the same tier of greatness is silly. But within the tier it’s a fair measure. Guaranteed the players do. McDavid doesn’t win a Cup and it will affect him for sure.

 

[M Ace]

This is how everyone should treat Connor and the SC question.

It's a 32 team NHL with a salary cap a lot of great players aren't going to win a SC ever in todays NHL.

So let's focus on what Connor McDavid the player actually has done and is doing.

His last 4 year playoff years are generational elite as as Draisaitl's.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

And he has the best +/- of them all too, for all the people complaining about his d-game....

 

[M Ace]

Its the way its always been. Hockey superstars are not on the ice for most of the game. You need a stacked team to win, but the odds are also getting harder. There's 32 teams now as opposed to 20 or so.

I also think mcdavid's team is not as good as Mario's penguins and definitely not as good as gretzky's oilers.

And I also think Wayne and Mario never faced a team tougher or harder to play then todays Panthers....

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I think we can include recency bias and love of one’s team as influences too.
Having McDavid in the top five tier (providing he leads his club to the Cup) is fine. But it’s certainly an opinion, regardless of what measure we use.
There have been few players I paid money to watch live. Orr, Guy, Perrault, Wayne, Mario, Bure. I’m definitely going to go see McDavid. He’s worth the price of admission.
The Cup though (imo) is needed to move him up from 10.

It's not recency bias when you have 10 years of data and can see where the player is heading comparatively to those of the past. McDavid is near 1100 points and is only 28 years old. By the time he's 32, he'll probably be close to 1500-1600 points, making it a real possibility he'll finish second all-time in points in the regular season. Same with the playoffs. 143 points in 90 games and almost halfway through to catching up to 2nd all-time (295). And in both cases, doing it with a top 3 all-time ppg pace. Then there's the achievements, where he's doing things only Gretzky and Lemieux have done, with similar % of team points share (pts vs team's GF) in either season or playoffs.

 

[daver]

I also think mcdavid's team is not as good as Mario's penguins and definitely not as good as gretzky's oilers.

And I also think Wayne and Mario never faced a team tougher or harder to play then todays Panthers....

You guys are trying rewrite history.

Wayne and Mario were trandecent talents who had multiple Cup runs worthy of the bar they had set in the regular season; a bar that was higher than McDavid's.

The Panthers have placed themselves with 5 or 6 other teams as the best since 2005 (WIngs, Pens, Hawks, Bolts, Kings?). There are hardly setting a relative bar that no team from the '80s or '90s would not match.

You are trying to hard to place McDavid with those two.

 

[Fatass]

It's not recency bias when you have 10 years of data and can see where the player is heading comparatively to those of the past. McDavid is near 1100 points and is only 28 years old. By the time he's 32, he'll probably be close to 1500-1600 points, making it a real possibility he'll finish second all-time in points in the regular season. Same with the playoffs. 143 points in 90 games and almost halfway through to catching up to 2nd all-time (295). And in both cases, doing it with a top 3 all-time ppg pace. Then there's the achievements, where he's doing things only Gretzky and Lemieux have done, with similar % of team points share (pts vs team's GF) in either season or playoffs.

Jagr had close to 2000 points and was a key player on two Cup winners. Where does he rank?

 

[Fatass]

You guys are trying rewrite history.

Wayne and Mario were trandecent talents who had multiple Cup runs worthy of the bar they had set in the regular season; a bar that was higher than McDavid's.

The Panthers have placed themselves with 5 or 6 other teams as the best since 2005 (WIngs, Pens, Hawks, Bolts, Kings?). There are hardly setting a relative bar that no team from the '80s or '90s would not match.

The Islanders that Wayne beat for his first Cup had won four straight and full of HHOF players. They were tough as hell too. Clearly a better team than Florida.

 

[Video Nasty]

You are trying to hard to place McDavid with those two.

They’re not nearly as determined as you are to keep McDavid from overtaking Crosby in the all-time rankings.

 

[landy]

LA wouldnt have been near the finals without no99



Tier A Gretzky Lemieux
Tier B McDavid
Tier C Jagr Crosby

the narrative that McDavid needs a cup to be considered...... is set
up by AntiMcDavids Connorphobics statsdeniers and such

i dont buy into that argument, cause its made by the opposition
so i personnaly dont care, its an appeal to authority kind of fallacy.

Cups matter. To put McDavid, today, ahead of Sid is pure insanity. I believe he will get there. 1 Cup and he is in that tier. Multiple Cups and and he is ahead. No Cups and it will forever be arguable that he is a tier below.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Not winning a Cup while his post lockout/Cap era peer won three is significant and cannot be merely waved off with a "32 team league/stacked team" argument.

It can be waived off with the “Crosby’s team played better when it mattered” argument, however.

 

[CashMash]

Cups matter. To put McDavid, today, ahead of Sid is pure insanity. I believe he will get there. 1 Cup and he is in that tier. Multiple Cups and and he is ahead. No Cups and it will forever be arguable that he is a tier below.

I think even with 1 cup, he'd be ahead. They're still in the same tier to me. McDavid is a better scorer even when adjusting for scoring environments. Even so, he--like Crosby--has years where others surpass him in terms of scoring. Art Rosses have gone to Drai, Kucherov, and Mack has kept pace too... It's not like Wayne and Mario from the 80s to the early 90s where they only lost to each other.

He's better than the aforementioned guys--being a tier above them due to consistency--much like Crosby who was better than Malkin and Ovechkin over the years. I feel McDavid has separated himself more from the his versions than Crosby did, but not by enough that he'd be in the Lemieux and Gretzky tier. He and Crosby are in the Jagr tier in terms of separation.

We *are* in a higher scoring era, given that we only had a couple 100-point scorers at most a season for most of the 2010s. Suddenly, we have a handful again. That can't all be a coincidence, especially since Kuch, Mack, and McDavid played at the tail end of the lower scoring era too.

 

[daver]

It can be waived off with the “Crosby’s team played better when it mattered” argument, however.

Can we wave off superior McDavid's regular season trophy case due Crosby missing a relatively small amount of games to injuries?

 

[daver]

I think even with 1 cup, he'd be ahead. They're still in the same tier to me. McDavid is a better scorer even when adjusting for scoring environments.

Crosby is as dominant over his peers as McDavid was over his first ten seasons. It can be argued that McDavid befitted from playing during a time that was more conducive for superstar offensive talent to stand out vs. the tighter, more defensive time that Crosby played in.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If only McDavid had the luxury of having an all time playoff performer for a teammate and win 3 Cups with Finals performances of:

1-2-3, -3 in 7
0-4-4, E in 6
2-5-7, +4 in 6

 

[JianYang]

You guys are trying rewrite history.

Wayne and Mario were trandecent talents who had multiple Cup runs worthy of the bar they had set in the regular season; a bar that was higher than McDavid's.

The Panthers have placed themselves with 5 or 6 other teams as the best since 2005 (WIngs, Pens, Hawks, Bolts, Kings?). There are hardly setting a relative bar that no team from the '80s or '90s would not match.

You are trying to hard to place McDavid with those two.

I think Wayne is the only one that transcended the game, but that is another topic.

I generally have said in the past that mcdavid is the best talent I have seen since mario and Wayne. There's a difference in saying that compared to "trying hard to place mcdavid with those two".

What is your point in saying that the Panthers are in a group of 5 teams since 2005? It sounds like your argument is that mcdavid final round matchup is not hard enough, but I am not sure.

 

[daver]

What is your point in saying that the Panthers are in a group of 5 teams since 2005? It sounds like your argument is that mcdavid final round matchup is not hard enough, but I am not sure.

It sounds like you didn't read the post I quoted.

What was the point of saying the Panthers are better than any of the ten or twelve teams that Wayne or Mario faced in their Cup runs?

 

[daver]

I think Wayne is the only one that transcended the game, but that is another topic.

I generally have said in the past that mcdavid is the best talent I have seen since mario and Wayne. There's a difference in saying that compared to "trying hard to place mcdavid with those two".

What is your point in saying that the Panthers are in a group of 5 teams since 2005? It sounds like your argument is that mcdavid final round matchup is not hard enough, but I am not sure.

A statistical analysis places McDavid with Crosby and Jagr in terms of offensive ceilings; they are the comparables in terms of judging McDavid's legacy. Wayne and Mario were better in the regular season and in the playoffs than McDavid.

I think many posters would hesitate placing McDavid above Crosby without a Cup and the majority can see why someone would argue that. I think less posters are putting him a clear tier above Crosby at that point.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Jagr had close to 2000 points and was a key player on two Cup winners. Where does he rank?

Dude... McDavid is 68 points away from Jagr in the playoffs, with 135 games less. Has 120pts in his last 67 games. He'll will most likely pass Jagr in playoff points before he's 32. Jagr never won a Smythe despite playing 225 playoff games. They each have 5 Ross, but McDavid's career is far from over. McDavid has 3 Hart to Jagr's one, while also being one of the only two unanimous Hart winners with Gretzky. One more Lindsay than Jagr with 4. He already beats Jagr in terms of trophies and if he passes Jagr in season points, he'll do it in far less games and won't need extended longevity to accomplish it. If McDavid's career spans as long as Jagr, we're probably looking at somewhere between 2000 and 2400 points. McDavid's legacy is already bigger than Jagr's and only needs to match him up in points, either in the reg or playoffs, to clearly pass him.

I'd also add that McDavid will hold top 3 positions in other sub categories for both season and playoffs, like 5v5 and ES points, assists, primary assists. #2 alltime for single playoff primary assists. Already has a major record in single playoff assists, which Jagr and other alumnies do not have.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Can we wave off superior McDavid's regular season trophy case due Crosby missing a relatively small amount of games to injuries?

Generational talents have had worse luck than Crosby, such as Orr and Lemieux, who had their careers cut short. Unfortunately, Crosby missed games in his prime, but he had the chance to make up for the trophy case in 2015, 2016, and 2017. If he played like a generational player during that stretch, he would have cleared each actual Art Ross winner during that stretch.

I don't think people say McDavid is better because of the trophy case, either. He flat out performs better in the playoffs and has had entire seasons of dominance over his peers.

 

[PistolPete]

Imagine he goes supernova with 20 points in 7 games against FLA

Then Dave Lumley and Lee Fogolin would be better than McDavid.....

Hell, Pat Conacher and Kevin McClelland!