How would another Stanley Cup Final loss impact McDavid's legacy?

[psycat]

Who would you like to see discussed more?

(Not being a smart ass, genuinely curious)

Literally any other player than McDavid would be more interesting to hear about, also there are some decent topics here but I don't see how McDavids all time legacy is any matter for an active playoff board. Like sure if it was buried somewhere on the Oilers board or heck even the off season main board I wouldn't bother posting in it at all.

How would a second loss in a row affect Bouchards legacy is a more interesting thread for example since this one is a horse that's revived and beaten to death every other day?

 

[PistolPete]

Literally any other player than McDavid would be more interesting to hear about, also there are some decent topics here but I don't see how McDavids all time legacy is any matter for an active playoff board. Like sure if it was buried somewhere on the Oilers board or heck even the off season main board I wouldn't bother posting in it at all.

How would a second loss in a row affect Bouchards legacy is a more interesting thread for example since this one is a horse that's revived and beaten to death every other day?

Chat forums work like media and youtube: certain topics get all the eyeballs.

I hate the coverage the Leafs get on national t.v. but I understand why but I still despise the Leafs, their fans, and the so-called national broadcasters TSN and SN because of it.

In fact, I refuse to watch any talking heads show or the SN panel because of it (and with respect to the latter because I'm done with Ron MacLean)

 

[The don godfather]

Hope to hear the 2nd dig in speech in this series that was entertaining.

 

[KCC]

Even if he never wins a cup he will still be top 3 of all time just based on his eventual insane career stats and individual hardware. A cup isn't the end all be all but if he can get even just one that will obviously truly cement things for him as the only thing left would be an Olympic gold medal which he likely would have had by now if not for the NHL being donkeys. Might get it next year though.

 

[Crosby2010]

Nobody is saying McDavid isn't a great postseason player. Or, that a team can't win with them as his best player. It's obvious a team with him as their best player is better off than had it been anyone else.

The story is not finished if he loses to Florida. Because his career won't be done. If he completed his career without a cup, he won't be considered a top six player ever. Ovechkin and Crosby will be ahead. Is that fair to hold it against him? Probably not. But it will.

As for the bolded, had he shown up sooner in games 1-3, maybe a near miracle comeback isn't necessary. They put themselves in a position where they needed to be mistake free for four games.

He is in that rare category of player where if he never wins a Cup it will always be something brought up about him. He is too good of a player historically for this not to be mentioned. He is already in the category of Dan Marino in the NFL. It is like that with Marino. We all know how great of a passer he was, but when all-time QBs come up what is the one thing constantly brought up about him? He never won a Super Bowl. And to boot, did not have a sparkling playoff resume either. I think McDavid has surpassed Dionne arguably as the best player to never win a Cup so he's pretty much in that group himself in the NHL now. But in the NBA it would be Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Harden, etc. In MLB its Williams, Cobb, Bonds, etc. Although in Baseball you are far more forgiven for not having a World Series.

Bottom line, he doesn't have to win it this year, but if he does then he has that albatross off of him.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

Its the way its always been. Hockey superstars are not on the ice for most of the game. You need a stacked team to win, but the odds are also getting harder. There's 32 teams now as opposed to 20 or so.

I also think mcdavid's team is not as good as Mario's penguins and definitely not as good as gretzky's oilers.

Neither are Florida. Those teams would beat every cup winner in the past 30 years sans maybe the 02 Wings.

So, yes it is hard to win a cup. But he won't have the excuse of say a Ray Bourque in 88. Where the series was over before it began.

The game has changed. It is harder to win. But fair or not, he will be judged on whether he wins a cup or not.

Nobody is disputing the fact he is an all time great. But he's not an all time legend...yet.

 

[Hockey2Hockey]

He is in that rare category of player where if he never wins a Cup it will always be something brought up about him. He is too good of a player historically for this not to be mentioned. He is already in the category of Dan Marino in the NFL. It is like that with Marino. We all know how great of a passer he was, but when all-time QBs come up what is the one thing constantly brought up about him? He never won a Super Bowl. And to boot, did not have a sparkling playoff resume either. I think McDavid has surpassed Dionne arguably as the best player to never win a Cup so he's pretty much in that group himself in the NHL now. But in the NBA it would be Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Harden, etc. In MLB its Williams, Cobb, Bonds, etc. Although in Baseball you are far more forgiven for not having a World Series.

Bottom line, he doesn't have to win it this year, but if he does then he has that albatross off of him.

This is totally off topic. But he has no business being compared with those all time NBA greats. He's a few tiers below. But I get the main point.

I will say this. I always felt Marino never upped his game enough in the postseason to give his team great chances to win. McDavid has. Marino always left you wanting more.

But it would still be the same conversation. "Yeah that McDavid guy was great. But he never won a cup."

And another question is if he can't get it done this year, when will he? How much better is the team going to get when three guys will be taking up half the cap? One of them being Bouchard.

 

[CashMash]

"There's 32 teams now!"
"Superstars don't play as much in hockey as they do in basketball!"
"Luck plays a bigger role in Hockey than other sports!"

All true... BUT!
Selection from that pool of 32 teams isn't random. Contenders win cups. Players make contenders. Crosby did it. Malkin did it. Ovechkin did it. MacKinnon did it. Makar did it. They fulfilled the promise that drafting a player of their caliber holds. Dionne and Lindros are disappointments in that regard.

Edmonton and Florida are in the Finals. Edmonton back to back. Florida threepeating.
Before that, we have Tampa, Pittsburgh, LA, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, etc. All in the lockout era. This is good, actually! Parity, which wasn't the aim of the cap anyway, shouldn't mean skill is irrelevant. It is still possible to build great teams and affect your odds at winning.

Now, McDavid deserves a ton of credit for even getting them this far, and no one could EVER claim he is a playoff dud. But to say that the cup is a team award and has no bearing on an individual is pure cope. Every hockey player's ultimate goal is to win one. Context matters. He is a key player on the team. A difference maker.

If McDrai is so much better than the Barkovs, the Tkatchuks, the Reinharts, the Nuge compares well to Florida's third line, and Bouchard is a gamebreaker... Why would they lose in a hypothetical scenario?

"Florida is a better team! A team can be greater than the sum of its parts!"

There would have to still be a reason. This is why you can't say it means NOTHING if he NEVER wins. The Stanley Cup is the ultimate prize; it's not meaningless. I, for one, am very excited to watch the series and hope he wins at least one during his career.

 

[PistolPete]

Even if he never wins a cup he will still be top 3 of all time just based on his eventual insane career stats and individual hardware. A cup isn't the end all be all but if he can get even just one that will obviously truly cement things for him as the only thing left would be an Olympic gold medal which he likely would have had by now if not for the NHL being donkeys. Might get it next year though.

Top 3?
Insane stats?

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
.......maybe a tie for 4th?

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

Probably won’t affect much unless he retires.

 

[MoneyManny]

Florida is the new hockey Mecca. Connor who?

 

[Video Nasty]

Can’t wait until this is put to rest forever in two to three weeks.

 

[CashMash]

Can’t wait until this is put to rest forever in two to three weeks.

Did you say the same thing last year, by chance?

 

[Video Nasty]

Did you say the same thing last year, by chance?

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Top 3?
Insane stats?

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
.......maybe a tie for 4th?

IMO this is how it is:

His first six years in the league were cementing his status in a new big five alongside Gretzky/Orr/Howe/Lemieux. That he was on that level was fairly obvious based on eye test and his numbers relative to the team around him.

2022-2024 McDavid broke out past Lemieux based on the 150 point year, and having three enormous playoff runs in terms of offensive production. A single player doing those kinds of top 0.5% things over multiple years is much harder in the current era where opponents have detailed defensive schemes updated before every game to zero in on anyone who is on a hot streak. In Lemieuxs era, just implementing a single defensive system like the trap or the left wing lock was adequate to take a contender from the first round to the cup.

But, if the Oilers lose in the finals, and he's not at least good this time, I think there'd be evidence to slide McDavid back down to the #5 slot. Performance as you get closer to the cup matters, just not enough to be the only thing.

 

[behemolari]

2 Smythes with zero Cups is gonna be as unbreakable of a record as Wayne's 50 in 39

I really hope they wont do it, as it would stamp ultimate loser no matter what happens after that

 

[behemolari]

It would say a LOT more about the state of the league than the player.

If the best hockey player on earth can't drag his team to a championship. then the league rules/cba is in dire need of changing. No other pro sport in the world has this issue.

its not issue, its hockey.

 

[ricky0034]

with how he's done in the Playoffs someone bringing up McDavid never winning a Cup is fast becoming a pretty easy litmus test where you can just ignore anything else they say

I hope he doesn't win because it's actually pretty convenient

 

[daver]

Did he play horribly in any of the games being brought up though?

And the answer is no, 2 teams played sometimes the best player out there doesn't decide the game so putting so much undue emphasis on the teams results and virtually ignoring what any player did is not only lazy but a weak argument.

Mario was super duper in 2 SC runs other times his team, which was probably more stacked came up short as well but he gets a bye well because he won twice on 2 stacked teams.

McDavid really has a good a playoff resume as Mario does in real objective terms except for the SC's which is more of a team thing than just a Mario thing.

But the sports narrative is that you have a win a championship, without even bothering to look at context.

Doesn't really make any sense at all.

Here is the issue. People want to compare him to Wayne and Mario when his comparable offensive peers are Jagr and Crosby.

Mentioning Crosby triggers a 20 page discussion about PPGs and point totals with no context like how Crosby actually played in games where he didn't get as many points as expected but his team still won or how comparing raw point totals and PPGs from different seasons makes no sense.

Not winning a Cup while his post lockout/Cap era peer won three is significant and cannot be merely waved off with a "32 team league/stacked team" argument.

He is among the best of all-time outside of the Big 4 but needs at least one Cup if he ever wants to be possibly moved to the top of that list.

 

[BLNY]

Show up in a Finals Game 7 when it matters the most.

LOL. As if he didn't do enough to will them back from the brink.

There are plenty of star players whose playoff performances are worth taking issue with. Connor and Leon aren't on that list. If the Oilers never win with them, it very likely won't be because of them.

To say his legacy is in anyway tarnished by not winning the cup despite clear effort to do so is to say any black ace that managed to play in 1 game during a cup run had their legacy cemented as a result of managing to find themselves on a winning roster. It's a logical fallacy.

 

[ricky0034]

Here is the issue. People want to compare him to Wayne and Mario when his comparable offensive peers are Jagr and Crosby.

Mentioning Crosby triggers a 20 page discussion about PPGs and point totals with no context like how Crosby actually played in games where he didn't get as many points as expected but his team still won or how comparing raw point totals and PPGs from different seasons makes no sense.

Not winning a Cup while his post lockout/Cap era peer won three is significant and cannot be merely waved off with a "32 team league/stacked team" argument.

He is among the best of all-time outside of the Big 4 but needs at least one Cup if he ever wants to be possibly moved to the top of that list.

I get that you're obsessed with Crosby but in what universe is McDavid's Playoff offense comparable to his?

first 10 years(since this is McDavid's 10th season) points per game:

McDavid: 1.59
first non teammate: 1.31
5th place: 1.19
10th place: 1.05

Crosby: 1.18
first non teammate: 1.07
5th place: 1.00
10th place: 0.97


calling that comparable is delusional

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The Oilers won without Gretzky.
The Kings lost with Gretzky because Guy Carbonneau was able to mostly neutralize him.

None of that appears to have tarnished Gretzky's legacy. Even if Florida wins it's not going to take away McDavid's reputation as the best player currently in the NHL.

Even worst than that, he scored into his own goal in the 93 finals.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Top 3?
Insane stats?

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
.......maybe a tie for 4th?

Orr had to short career for me, was he better?
He is in Bjorn Borg territory for me, maybe higher then Nadal Federer
some stats support it, but the lenght of his career makes him under them.
same with Lemiuex, Gretzky is greater cause of the lenght of his career,
This is how I see it, my opinion.

 

[JFedol]

He's not losing at all this year LOL

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Even worst than that, he scored into his own goal in the 93 finals.

LA wouldnt have been near the finals without no99

Here is the issue. People want to compare him to Wayne and Mario when his comparable offensive peers are Jagr and Crosby.

Mentioning Crosby triggers a 20 page discussion about PPGs and point totals with no context like how Crosby actually played in games where he didn't get as many points as expected but his team still won or how comparing raw point totals and PPGs from different seasons makes no sense.

Not winning a Cup while his post lockout/Cap era peer won three is significant and cannot be merely waved off with a "32 team league/stacked team" argument.

He is among the best of all-time outside of the Big 4 but needs at least one Cup if he ever wants to be possibly moved to the top of tha

Tier A Gretzky Lemieux
Tier B McDavid
Tier C Jagr Crosby

the narrative that McDavid needs a cup to be considered...... is set
up by AntiMcDavids Connorphobics statsdeniers and such

i dont buy into that argument, cause its made by the opposition
so i personnaly dont care, its an appeal to authority kind of fallacy.