How would another Stanley Cup Final loss impact McDavid's legacy?

[Luigi Lemieux]

It would say a LOT more about the state of the league than the player.

If the best hockey player on earth can't drag his team to a championship. then the league rules/cba is in dire need of changing. No other pro sport in the world has this issue.

It says more about their management. It took them like 8 or 9 years to become a serious cup contender. They were handed two top 5 centers which is a slam dunk multi cup winning scenario every time under competent management.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Depends how he plays, and how the teams play. If Florida is just flat out a better team despite McDavid's 2 pts+ every game, what can you do. It would sucks that he didn't get his SC but it's not his fault.

By now he should universally be seen as one of the greatest playoff performers of all-time. He almost singlehandedly brings his team on deep playoff runs with Draisaitl. Many cup winners can't say that.

 

[Fatass]

Depends how he plays, and how the teams play. If Florida is just flat out a better team despite McDavid's 2 pts+ every game, what can you do. It would sucks that he didn't get his SC but it's not his fault.

McDavid needs to be great for your games. He wins those four games, it doesn’t matter a crap what he does in the other three. No one will care. And he won’t either.

 

[PistolPete]

Are you trying to argue that McDavid is on Wayne's level?

McDavid was very good in the SCF last year but not good enough.

No.

I was pointing out the lack of logic to your argument.

By your logic, Gretzky- no player in fact- can be considered a great or elite player because they had one bad game or series.

McDavid scored over 40 points for the PO, 11 points in the SCF - 3 goals and 8 assists and had points in 4 of the 7 games; 22 SOG, at least 2 in 6 of the 7 games.

All because he wasn't able to convert any of his own shots or no other Oiler could convert hid passes, in your view he should be held personally responsible for the Oilers loss and ergo have his legacy negatively impacted.

Not every great player dominates every single game they play in- not even series clinching or Cup clinching games. And this is true in any sport.

 

[Menzinger]

Its the way its always been. Hockey superstars are not on the ice for most of the game. You need a stacked team to win, but the odds are also getting harder. There's 32 teams now as opposed to 20 or so.

I also think mcdavid's team is not as good as Mario's penguins and definitely not as good as gretzky's oilers.

The post 2004 NHL also has less impactful free agency options and it's more difficult to make trades, especially mid season.

Bettman and the league also haven't made a secret of prioritizing 'parity' above all else - the very rules of the league make it harder to put together a sustained championship team beyond catching lightening in a jar for a season or two

 

[PistolPete]

It would say a LOT more about the state of the league than the player.

If the best hockey player on earth can't drag his team to a championship. then the league rules/cba is in dire need of changing. No other pro sport in the world has this issue.

Your contention assumes

1. The best player in the league can be easily identified

2. That player- using your logic- should win the championship every season.

And the NFL and MLB have way too many pieces for the best player at aby position to be able to drag their team to a championship.

Even LeBron James didn't win until he joined Wade and Bosh- and this is basketball, the sport whereby single player has the biggest impact on his team's success.

The conventional wisdom in the NBA is you have to have three top players and a decent supporting cast to win, even if you have the best player in the game.

Jordan- arguably the NBA GOAT didn't win until he had Pippen and a stellar supporting cast

 

[GlitchMarner]

I dont buy that for a second. The fact he doesn't have any cups right now speaks to the ineptness of oiler management.

Last year for example, his production in the playoffs has not been seen since prime Mario or prime Wayne. There is nothing more he could do.

Yeah, like I said, I don't blame him for not having any Stanley Cups so far.

This is probably his best chance to win one so far. He's been a tremendous playoff performer to this point in his career.

I do think that if he has a poor series against FLA, people who try to blame him for being Cupless and say that he can't get it done will harp on that and say it supports that notion. But it won't necessarily. Even the best players have their off series. No one is perfect.

I expect him to play well, though (and for EDM to win). If they lose despite him and because of other factors, you would hope people will recognize it's not his fault. But many seem to struggle to separate individual performance from team results when it comes to the playoffs/Cup Final.

 

[TooManyHumans]

He is basically early/mid career Elway. Elway dragged his Broncos teams to the Super Bowl where they got killed. It wasn't on Elway that they got killed, unless you mean it was his fault for dragging them to places they should never have been and would never have been without him. It absolutely cemented Elway's legacy that he did finally win it all twice later in his career, even though he was more of a passenger than he had ever been. If McDavid doesn't win it until late in his career and then is a side piece on a great team that finally wins it, it will improve his legacy. I think it is pretty dumb but it is what it is. None of us are going to reason it away.

 

[Albatros]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, was prepared to give Marian Hossa any respect or admiration in 2009 if his Detroit Red Wings had defeated the Pittsburgh Penguins in the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals. Hossa as a member of the Penguins in 2008 had lost in the Finals to the Red Wings. Then he went and joined the Red Wings for 2009. Nobody was going to give him any respect or admiration had he beaten the Penguins in the 2009 Finals. As a matter of fact, it would have caused damage to his legacy and reputation had he won the 2009 Finals. For Hossa, it was much better when he won with Chicago against teams that had never played for before.

Huh. Hossa played in 12 regular season games for "his" Penguins after being traded there at deadline. He was a rental in Pittsburgh and owed the team nothing after his contract expired.

 

[PistolPete]

Nobody, and I mean nobody, was prepared to give Marian Hossa any respect or admiration in 2009 if his Detroit Red Wings had defeated the Pittsburgh Penguins in the 2009 Stanley Cup Finals. Hossa as a member of the Penguins in 2008 had lost in the Finals to the Red Wings. Then he went and joined the Red Wings for 2009. Nobody was going to give him any respect or admiration had he beaten the Penguins in the 2009 Finals. As a matter of fact, it would have caused damage to his legacy and reputation had he won the 2009 Finals. For Hossa, it was much better when he won with Chicago against teams that had never played for before.

I was cheering for him to win. I'm still pussed the Senators traded him

And re: Pittsburgh He was a deadline acquisition for the Penguins to help them in the PO knowing he could ans likely would sign elsewhere.

So I'm not sure where you equate him with Durant who was in Oklahoma for 8 seasons and drafted by them.

Rental players are rental players precisely because both teams involved known he he's an impending FA and much more likely than not to shop around.

Your disdain for just Hossa in this regard fascinates me. Why just him? Just because he signed with Detroit? Are you a Penguins fan?

 

[brentashton]

Why don't we wait until his career is over maybe?

How long did Ovi take?

Took the legend Yzerman 15 years

We can’t do that. Trolls on HFB would have no purpose then…

 

[wetcoast]

Get off to a better start in the SCF?

Score in Game 7?

If you are going to throw out his name with Wayne and Mario, he is going to be held to the highest standard possible.

Did he play horribly in any of the games being brought up though?

And the answer is no, 2 teams played sometimes the best player out there doesn't decide the game so putting so much undue emphasis on the teams results and virtually ignoring what any player did is not only lazy but a weak argument.

Mario was super duper in 2 SC runs other times his team, which was probably more stacked came up short as well but he gets a bye well because he won twice on 2 stacked teams.

McDavid really has a good a playoff resume as Mario does in real objective terms except for the SC's which is more of a team thing than just a Mario thing.

But the sports narrative is that you have a win a championship, without even bothering to look at context.

Doesn't really make any sense at all.

 

[Fatass]

Did he play horribly in any of the games being brought up though?

And the answer is no, 2 teams played sometimes the best player out there doesn't decide the game so putting so much undue emphasis on the teams results and virtually ignoring what any player did is not only lazy but a weak argument.

Mario was super duper in 2 SC runs other times his team, which was probably more stacked came up short as well but he gets a bye well because he won twice on 2 stacked teams.

McDavid really has a good a playoff resume as Mario does in real objective terms except for the SC's which is more of a team thing than just a Mario thing.

But the sports narrative is that you have a win a championship, without even bothering to look at context.

Doesn't really make any sense at all.

Maybe not to us. But I’m betting not having a Cup (and if he loses in the final this year too) means a heck of a lot to McDavid.

 

[GoldenSeal]

Sure winning the SC will help a lot more but seriously his playoff and overall resume is beyond reproach right now.

Anyone arguing otherwise is on very weak ground and conflating team success with the actual individual performance here.

How did 4

There are more than 20 players in the HoF without a cup as a player. If he never wins one, he'll be the best of that group and will still go down as one of the best players of all time. Cups are team accomplishments and there's nothing he hasn't done at this point to try and put his team over.

Show up in a Finals Game 7 when it matters the most.

 

[wetcoast]

He is basically early/mid career Elway. Elway dragged his Broncos teams to the Super Bowl where they got killed. It wasn't on Elway that they got killed, unless you mean it was his fault for dragging them to places they should never have been and would never have been without him. It absolutely cemented Elway's legacy that he did finally win it all twice later in his career, even though he was more of a passenger than he had ever been. If McDavid doesn't win it until late in his career and then is a side piece on a great team that finally wins it, it will improve his legacy. I think it is pretty dumb but it is what it is. None of us are going to reason it away.

Gave this a like, great post, great avatar and even greater username.

That being said I hope the Oilers win the SC so this ridiculous argument can be put to rest on the next emerging superstar in 10 years in some 34 or 36 team NHL.

 

[Praetorian Caps]

He gives me slight vibes of being either annoyed or stressed when things aren't working out.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

If he has a good showing, not that much

If he throws the series like the Black Sox, a lot

 

[UED]

I think winning the conn smythe last year made him safe. no one can ever say that he wasn't a playoff performer or anything like that.

 

[PistolPete]

Show up in a Finals Game 7 when it matters the most.

There's showing up and having no puck luck and then there's showing up and acting like it's a preseason game.

if this myth of "showing up" as a clutch performer is an actual thing then they would be able to literally score at will which would mean their ability to score would be infinite.

Cases like Marner, Marthews, Gartner et al are one thing- they just disappear altogether in the PO. Players like McDavid, Lemieux, Gretzky, et al are players who have demonstrated an ability to perform in the PO but it is absurd to think that they can convert every shot or pass into a goal at will.

That "clutch performer " and "he willed his team to win" makes for nice stories, but they're absolute myths.

The hardest concept the human mind has difficulty grasping is random chance. We create myths to explain it all away. "He willed his team to win" sounds a lot better than "He had a lot of puck luck tonight and it seemed the Hockey gods were on his side as his chances were converted all night long." There's a reason why we have this notion that "He scores in bunches ". We fail to appreciate it's not scoring in bunches, it's merely random chance at play.

If he played 10 game 7s in the SCF, I would wager he'd end up with a minimum of 6 goals and 18 points. Why? Because he has demonstrated he can score at that pave in the PO and that he doesn't fold under pressure (as in perennially scores at a pace far below his RS pace)

 

[Fatass]

I think winning the conn smythe last year made him safe. no one can ever say that he wasn't a playoff performer or anything like that.

Do you honestly believe McDavid cares about the Conn Smythe over a Cup, when it comes to his inclusion with the greatest ever?

 

[PistolPete]

Do you honestly believe McDavid cares about the Conn Smythe over a Cup, when it comes to his inclusion with the greatest ever?

He wouldn't but it should prove to people he's not another Matthews and as such is a great in the sense that he brought the same game to the PO that he did to the RS which is something the greats do.

There's a reason why Mike Gsrtner is never brought up in the same category as even Glenn Anderson or the Magic Man himself, Kent Nilsson. Magic Man because he disappeared in the PO

 

[Fatass]

He wouldn't but it should prove to people he's not another Matthews and as such is a great in the sense that he brought the same game to the PO that he did to the RS which is something the greats do.

There's a reason why Mike Gsrtner is never brought up in the same category as even Glenn Anderson or the Magic Man himself, Kent Nilsson. Magic Man because he disappeared in the PO

Understood. McDavid is clearly in a tier above Matthews. Two tiers imo.

 

[PistolPete]

Understood. McDavid is clearly in a tier above Matthews. Two tiers imo.

If I was ti make a comparison, I would put McDavid in the Yzerman category (which may seem absurd at first glance but then you see his numbers and realize they were exceptional but got overshadowed by Gretzky and Lemieux).

Even in 1989, he got overshadowed by Bernie Nicholls. Dude never hit the 50 goal mark and then suddenly scores 70 lol

 

[psycat]

Do we really need another McDavid thread? There are other players you know. I am sure he will be fine either way why do people obsess so much?

 

[PistolPete]

Do we really need another McDavid thread? There are other players you know. I am sure he will be fine either way why do people obsess so much?

Who would you like to see discussed more?

(Not being a smart ass, genuinely curious)