How was Valabik at WJC?

[leafaholix*]

Fair enough...but they just arent as bad as you make it seem. They simply haven't been trying to develop defensemen until recently, because we always had a core of guys like Hatcher, Zubov, Matvichuk, Ludwig, etc.

That's not a smart reason to go 0 for 18 in the draft on defensemen.

 

[kmad]

And I'm not using it as a derogatory term. Just pointing out that if you consider taking Fistric in the 1st round "inefficient", then you must consider Kesler the same. Your words, not mine.

Roles for forwards differ from roles for defensemen. You never hear the term 'elite' used in the same sentence as 'third pairing defenseman' and usually not in the same sentence as 'second pairing defenseman'. The term 'elite checker' is commonly used, though.

Standards differ in different contexts.

 

[Chaos]

That's not a smart reason to go 0 for 18 in the draft on defensemen.

Just remember that 13 of those 18 were drafted in the 5th round or later. They simply were not all that worried about drafting and developing defensmen, because we already had a good core, and had the money to go out and sign any needed replacements.

 

[leafaholix*]

I agree, a great 3rd line forward that has captain potential is much much more important than say a #4/5 defenseman. You really can't replace the kind of player Kesler will be... he will be a NHL player, just not a top 6 forward or great scorer.

Fistric isn't a sure-anything.

 

[leafaholix*]

Just remember that 13 of those 18 were drafted in the 5th round or later. They simply were not all that worried about drafting and developing defensmen, because we already had a good core, and had the money to go out and sign any needed replacements.

And all 13 of those guys never became anything.

I'm not sure there's any other organization that's gone 0 for anything over the last decade in drafting defensemen.

 

[Chaos]

And all 13 of those guys never became anything.

I'm not sure there's any other organization that's gone 0 for anything over the last decade in drafting defensemen.

So they weren't lucky with those late round picks. Because thats basically what most 5th rounders or later are. Just the luck of the draw on who drafts who. A guy like Datsyuk could have been drafted by any team in the 7th round, but Detroit was the lucky team. Doesnt necessarily reflect positively/negatively on theirs or anyone elses scouting/drafting. But hey....if you want to think we have absolutely no idea how to draft defensemen, so be it.

 

[leafaholix*]

So they weren't lucky with those late round picks. Because thats basically what most 5th rounders or later are. Just the luck of the draw on who drafts who. A guy like Datsyuk could have been drafted by any team in the 7th round, but Detroit was the lucky team. Doesnt necessarily reflect positively/negatively on theirs or anyone elses scouting/drafting. But hey....if you want to think we have absolutely no idea how to draft defensemen, so be it.

You have to be good to be lucky and lucky to be good.

Dallas has been neither... atleast not up until Trevor Daley, who's still not a sure thing. And he was taken relatively high in the 2002 draft.

 

[PSUhockey34]

And all 13 of those guys never became anything.

I'm not sure there's any other organization that's gone 0 for anything over the last decade in drafting defensemen.

the capitals havent had a stellar record in drafting dmen the past 10 or so years

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

the capitals havent had a stellar record in drafting dmen the past 10 or so years

I can think of Boynton but unfortunately, things were messed up. Who else?

I still like the Eminger kid, though. Never loved him when he was hot but I feel right now there is an opposite effect and he doesn't seem to get any recognition at all.

 

[kmad]

I can think of Boynton but unfortunately, things were messed up. Who else?

I still like the Eminger kid, though. Never loved him when he was hot but I feel right now there is an opposite effect and he doesn't seem to get any recognition at all.

Jury's still out on Jakob Cutta

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

And all 13 of those guys never became anything.

I'm not sure there's any other organization that's gone 0 for anything over the last decade in drafting defensemen.

If the draft that low? I wouldn't be surprised if several teams looked just like Dallas. There will of course be good picks but not everyone makes it to the NHL.

Quite frankly, with the kind of blueline Dallas had all those years, I don't think they were looking hard for Ds.

 

[leafaholix*]

If the draft that low? I wouldn't be surprised if several teams looked just like Dallas. There will of course be good picks but not everyone makes it to the NHL.

Quite frankly, with the kind of blueline Dallas had all those years, I don't think they were looking hard for Ds.

Poor management.

Now they have one of the weaker bluelines in the league because of poor decisions.

 

[pensfan04]

Ric Jackman could barely hang onto a spot in the pressbox before he went to Pittsburgh and lit it up on the worst NHL team.

Ric and Dick Connection Baby!!

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Poor management.

Now they have one of the weaker bluelines in the league because of poor decisions.

It's not stellar management, I agree. But very few teams can stay on top anyway. The key decisions that can be viewed as bad management go much deeper than that. A chief reason would be the abysmal stretch of free agency decisions, leading to a disrupted team, underachievement, leading in turn to a change of guard (and firing of one of the best coach in the business) and lack of money to secure Hatcher.

If, as I presume, they did ignore defensemen a bit in drafting, it's still the least of their problem. That's nothing you can't fix quite easily.

You could still do worse than their situation. One free agent and they are ok on defense. Then I am confident 2-3 of the current blueline prospects will pan eventually. Daley is going to be a pro full-time as soon as the NHL resume and I would be surprised if two other prospects don't join him in a year or two. I like their D prospects a lot.

 

[Rangerfan*]

He demonstrated that he is very raw. He is a very long term project and I don't see the upside. Been a Chara fan since his CHL days and I don't see it in Valabik.

Nice prospect regardless but 10th overall? The Thrashers are smoking good stuff. Valabik will also be complete garbage if, as I suspect, the league makes any kind of effort to further speed up the game and reward high octane hockey. Under those circumstances, he wouldn't even get a sniff.

A decent bottom 10 1st round gamble, a bad top 10 selection, IMO.

well that`s very interesting, because NHL scouts say that he is much better than Chara was at his age. HMM, you gotta be something more THAN JUST NORMAL NHL SCOUT.

 

[Rangerfan*]

Whomever in the Thrashers organization that was responsible for drafting Valabik over Stafford, Tukonen, Meszaros, Schremp, and Zajac, etc, should hand in his resignation..or be fired.

i`m guessing, that was the same guy who chose Heatley, Kovalchuk, Stefan and Coburn.

hmm, yeah you are right, really BAD drafting!!! :lol

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

well that`s very interesting, because NHL scouts say that he is much better than Chara was at his age. HMM, you gotta be something more THAN JUST NORMAL NHL SCOUT.

What do you mean by "NHL scouts say"? Do you somehow pretend to know what all NHL scouts think in this matter? I'm sure *some* NHL scouts might think that. I very much doubt all NHL scouts think that.

But whoever thinks this guy is better than Chara was, is just wrong. Won't be the first time a scout ****s up and won't be the last. It will take nothing short of a miracle for this guy to be similar to Chara, much less equal or (haha!) superior.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

i`m guessing, that was the same guy who chose Heatley, Kovalchuk, Stefan and Coburn.

hmm, yeah you are right, really BAD drafting!!! :lol

Only two of the players you have cited have panned out very well as of now. All of them are very high selection. Valabik is the lowest 1st round selection in team history. If you care to take a look at the Thrashers selections in lower rounds, you'll see it's nothing extraordinary.

Even the Hurricanes, who are "kings of sucky drafting" won't **** up when they are in position to draft a Staal, Heatley or Kovalchuk.

They're a very young franchise so a little early to assess their drafting but so far I am not impressed at all. I much prefer the work of other expansion teams.

In this thread, you've successfully demonstrated that you aren't the brightest bulb around but not much else if you ask me.

 

[Sammy*]

But whoever thinks this guy is better than Chara was, is just wrong. Won't be the first time a scout ****s up and won't be the last. It will take nothing short of a miracle for this guy to be similar to Chara, much less equal or (haha!) superior.

Vlad, you dont think this guy is as good as Chara was at a similar age (I have no idea)? I think the last sentence is true, cause Chara's development was off the map as he got older. I dont think anybody thought there was any way he could become what he has become at the time was drafted (or even for years afterwards). All that been said, I think it is highly unlikely that he will ever be near as good as Chara, no different than I think it is ner impossible that Barker will ever be as good a Bourque was.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Vlad, you dont think this guy is as good as Chara was at a similar age (I have no idea)? I think the last sentence is true, cause Chara's development was off the map as he got older. I dont think anybody thought there was any way he could become what he has become at the time was drafted (or even for years afterwards). All that been said, I think it is highly unlikely that he will ever be near as good as Chara, no different than I think it is ner impossible that Barker will ever be as good a Bourque was.

Seriously, I think Chara was quite good early on. Each level he showed a lot of promise but for some reason he seems to only get recognition for his Sens days. I think he was a good CHLer, a good AHLer. I remember every level he impressed me, was noticable in an all-star game (in the AHL I think) and was really a great puckhandler for his size, even in his early Isles days as a rookie NHLer. That guy could deke and go end to end but the point totals were not there. Chara understood the whole ice surface, Valabik doesn't seem to be aware of what goes on farther than a 10 feet radius.

Valabik struggles getting where he needs to be even without the puck. I don't see the comparison except in size, nationality and shot velocity. Valabik just doesn't inspire confidence to me the way the young Chara did as far as NHL upside goes. Watching Chara was like watching a guy trying to figure out how to use the impressive tools he was gifted with. Quite frankly, he had a high potential but even so, he has experienced optimal development. I think it will take a miracle in Valabik's case because the NHL potential is simply not the same, IMO. But he could still become a good 2nd pairing guy if all things went well and be very valuable. His bust factor looks higher to me.

I guess my problem with this pick is, I think he was drafted thanks to 1-3 inches. That's not a lot. There are plenty of big Ds who fall almost every draft. Guys in the 6 foot 4 to 6 foot 6 range and are pretty skilled. What does a Valabik have that a Semenov, Stehlik can't give you later in the draft?

Would this guy even go in the first round if he was 6 foot 5? Sometimes I wonder. That being said, I understand that it's Atlanta's philosophy to draft "extremes". They like ultra-offensive players, or ultra-big players. They like players who excel or dominate at something and have a huge upside. I guess they saw something in Valabik. Maybe they think this guy can be the next ultimate shutdown guy. Someone everybody hates and fear.

I guess looking back, maybe the best thing for Atlanta would be to stop trading their 2nd/3rd round picks and draft those kind of guys just later.

Look at the gap between those picks:

2001
1 L Ilya Kovalchuk
80 G Michael Garnett

I mean, what the **** happened between 1 and 80?

Next:

2002
2 G Kari Lehtonen
30 Jim Slater
116 Pat Dwyer

There's a huge gap between 30 and 116.

and finally:

2003
8 D Braydon Coburn
110 D Jim Sharrow

Drafting a guy and then watching 100 players go by without drafting. Among them big Ds like Egener, Smaby, Weber, Stehlik, O'Byrne, Nickerson. I'd rather waste a 3rd rounder once in a while on a gamble than go with that 10th overall pick and miss on amazing skill.

Personally, I think Stehlik looks fine and as a 3rd rounder, is a bargain compared to a Valabik.

 

[trahans99]

Am I watching a different player here?

I see alot to like in Valabik. Yes, I agree, even though I said this guy well be a top 10 pick, I didn't mean he deserved it, but there is to much raw power there not to like what he brings.

I can't waite until Coburn and Valabik make it to the NHL and Coburn is a shut down defenseman everyone wants like Mike Rathje while Valabik likely well on the 2nd pairing dominating in his own zone and absolutely punishing players and you'll learn to hate him (if you're not a thrashers fan) But Seriosly, Coburn is one steady force on the back end and Valabik brings a huge edge to a team that no one else that I can think of can.

I think once Valabik adds bulk, especially in his lowerbody he will be a force. He also is still learning mentally.

From what I gather on Valabik from my viewings...He is a great defensive defender. I rarely see him getting walked outside and his mobility as actualy impressive for a man his size! He simply shuts down his opposition with his size and huge range, He also makes opponets afraid to go anywhere near in front of the net.

Opponets well fear playing him.

I think Atlanta had better options at #10 but IMO Valabik isn't just a goon you all make him out to be, yes he's very raw, and yes he's offensive upside is minimal at best, but this guy has HUGE DEFENSIVE UPSIDE. Don't forget!

You say you've seen this guy play many times, have you ever seen him play against London? I've seen Perry dangle around him on numerous occasions. Did you see the move Perry put on him 2 minutes into the season during the first game. He made Valabik look like a little schoolgirl not knowing what the hell to do on defence.

 

[Sammy*]

Seriously, I think Chara was quite good early on. Each level he showed a lot of promise but for some reason he seems to only get recognition for his Sens days. I think he was a good CHLer, a good AHLer. I remember every level he impressed me, was noticable in an all-star game (in the AHL I think) and was really a great puckhandler for his size, even in his early Isles days as a rookie NHLer. That guy could deke and go end to end but the point totals were not there. Chara understood the whole ice surface, Valabik doesn't seem to be aware of what goes on farther than a 10 feet radius.

Valabik struggles getting where he needs to be even without the puck. I don't see the comparison except in size, nationality and shot velocity. Valabik just doesn't inspire confidence to me the way the young Chara did as far as NHL upside goes. Watching Chara was like watching a guy trying to figure out how to use the impressive tools he was gifted with. Quite frankly, he had a high potential but even so, he has experienced optimal development. I think it will take a miracle in Valabik's case because the NHL potential is simply not the same, IMO. But he could still become a good 2nd pairing guy if all things went well and be very valuable. His bust factor looks higher to me.

I guess my problem with this pick is, I think he was drafted thanks to 1-3 inches. That's not a lot. There are plenty of big Ds who fall almost every draft. Guys in the 6 foot 4 to 6 foot 6 range and are pretty skilled. What does a Valabik have that a Semenov, Stehlik can't give you later in the draft?

Would this guy even go in the first round if he was 6 foot 5? Sometimes I wonder. That being said, I understand that it's Atlanta's philosophy to draft "extremes". They like ultra-offensive players, or ultra-big players. They like players who excel or dominate at something and have a huge upside. I guess they saw something in Valabik. Maybe they think this guy can be the next ultimate shutdown guy. Someone everybody hates and fear.

I guess looking back, maybe the best thing for Atlanta would be to stop trading their 2nd/3rd round picks and draft those kind of guys just later.

Look at the gap between those picks:

2001
1 L Ilya Kovalchuk
80 G Michael Garnett

I mean, what the **** happened between 1 and 80?

Next:

2002
2 G Kari Lehtonen
30 Jim Slater
116 Pat Dwyer

There's a huge gap between 30 and 116.

and finally:

2003
8 D Braydon Coburn
110 D Jim Sharrow

Drafting a guy and then watching 100 players go by without drafting. Among them big Ds like Egener, Smaby, Weber, Stehlik, O'Byrne, Nickerson. I'd rather waste a 3rd rounder once in a while on a gamble than go with that 10th overall pick and miss on amazing skill.

Personally, I think Stehlik looks fine and as a 3rd rounder, is a bargain compared to a Valabik.

Very interesting & informative & I agree with your and assuming that your opinion on Valabik is even halfway accurate, I agree with your analysis of Atlanta's drafting of him & even there drafting as a whole.
Given with what you say about Chara, you must of thought that Yashin trade was just brutal at the time it was made, no? Cause I sure did & I even had no idea that Chara had progressed or was as talented & smart as he apparently was.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Very interesting & informative & I agree with your and assuming that your opinion on Valabik is even halfway accurate, I agree with your analysis of Atlanta's drafting of him & even there drafting as a whole.
Given with what you say about Chara, you must of thought that Yashin trade was just brutal at the time it was made, no? Cause I sure did & I even had no idea that Chara had progressed or was as talented & smart as he apparently was.

Damn right, I thought that deal was a steal. I've been a big Chara fan for years and he came pretty close to be my avatar here. But I never thought Yashin would be such an underachiever. He looked like he was about to become a steady 90+ guy, possibly better. This could maybe have been a win-win deal, sort of like Iginla-Nieuwendyk if the Isles had managed well and Yashin had kept performing. Instead, they just underachieved and signed him to that crazy contract while the Sens, who were the sellers, became a powerhouse.

As for Valabik, I would trust a guy like Epsilon, who seems to know him well and is usually pretty dead on for more info. He seems pretty high on him for reasons that escape me. I don't know if he would compare him to Chara. I doubt it. I see little ressemblance.

Glad I could help

 

[Epsilon]

Damn right, I thought that deal was a steal. I've been a big Chara fan for years and he came pretty close to be my avatar here. But I never thought Yashin would be such an underachiever. He looked like he was about to become a steady 90+ guy, possibly better. This could maybe have been a win-win deal, sort of like Iginla-Nieuwendyk if the Isles had managed well and Yashin had kept performing. Instead, they just underachieved and signed him to that crazy contract while the Sens, who were the sellers, became a powerhouse.

As for Valabik, I would trust a guy like Epsilon, who seems to know him well and is usually pretty dead on for more info. He seems pretty high on him for reasons that escape me. I don't know if he would compare him to Chara. I doubt it. I see little ressemblance.

Glad I could help

Actually you must be confusing me with someone else. Chara is the guy I know well due to watching him during his year in PG and then following his career after that.

As for Valabik, I don't think he was a bad pick other than the fact that Meszaros was still available, wh I like a lot more. I don't really see Valabik as being comparable to Chara (doesn't have the offensive skill), but he's got the raw tools to be a dominant defensive defenseman. The draft is such a crap shoot that swinging for homeruns is a reasonable strategy. You can always pick up your pluggers and 3rd pairing guys as free agents or on the waiver wire.

 

[littleHossa]

What are we fighting over? That Atlanta is a bad drafting team and how hip it is right nowto rag on Valabik? Lay it off, Don Waddell is actually one of the better drafting GMs and lets just see how Valabik develops. Last draft year it was fun to label Horton as the likely bust, this year we pick on Valabik for no reason either, he already has assets that NHL teams want on their roster.