How much weight do you give 5 on 5 for how good a scorer a player is? | Page 2 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

How much weight do you give 5 on 5 for how good a scorer a player is?

How does EV scoring affect a player's offensive ranking overall?


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One thing to consider is some players are poor PP players that can't generate or convert offense Ina structured offensive setting


Guys like Gallagher, Danault, and Tatar for the Habs were strong ES players for a few years but they didn't have the IQ and skills on the PP to produce compared to other options
 
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Are considering the past or future?

If it's the past - option 3 is objectively the only right answer. A point is a point, and a goal is a goal. So if you're looking back at guys like Lemieux, Gretzky or even Crosby/Ovechkin career to date - EV or PP is all the same.

The only time it makes a bit of sense is when looking at the future. Ie - who do you take for next season only - Matthews or MacKinnon. I honestly have no idea off hand which of the 2 does better at PP or EV - but if one player has a history of leaning on PP more than other - you might argue there's always a risk PP opportunities would go down next season, and so it's safer to take the better EV player. But - I don't even think it's that big a consideration, because PP opportunities rarely fluctuate dramatically year to year

voted option 3
 
It’s funny…initial reaction might be that even strength is more valuable, especially come playoffs when PP opportunities seem to be fewer, but then again, it’s tighter, harder to score 5 on 5 in the playoffs and with fewer PPs you want someone that excels in that regard
 
You’re just saying that cause Pettersson
Would be odd to base my opinion solely on one player. Powerplay specialist players are nice to have, but a successful team NEEDS player that can play at even strength and produce
 
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Would be odd to base my opinion solely on one player. Powerplay specialist players are nice to have, but a successful team NEEDS player that can play at even strength and produce
Fair enough.

I apologize for assuming you were biased.
Perhaps I need to look in the mirror.
 
Creating 5 on 5 typically requires a player to drive play or control possession. Weak defensive players don't produce 5 on 5 nearly as much.

Strong 5 on 5 teams do better in the playoffs.

I'd take a 60pt 5 on 5 player over an 80pt mainly PP producer.
 
Everything needs context. Comparing point totals without considering role makes no sense. That doesn’t mean taking into account the PP isn’t important, but it also means that someone who scores more solely due to the PP might not be better.

In general I think 5v5 play is more important, because, as a lot of people mentioned, it is the majority game state and it isn’t necessitated on refs calling penalties. One thing that doesn’t get considered enough is that there’s also far more minutes and roles to go around, which means it’s less likely someone’s talent will be redundant. If you have two great PP half-wall passers who aren’t great shooters, one of them is either going to be playing a less optimal position or playing less minutes on the second unit. If you have two great 5v5 line drivers, they can both get top minutes on separate lines. Role, system and linemates also effect 5v5 scoring, and we should consider those things when ranking 5v5 players, but I think it’s generally less pronounced.

That doesn’t mean the PP isn’t important. Most teams still need strong special teams to win. The difference is that the PP is a lot more structured and points are a lot more dependent on role. Elite PP players like McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, etc all bring a lot of value, because you can design schemes around their talents, but I think there’s lots of guys who are the 3rd and 4th option who score a lot due to how good the PP is and many could be replaced by an average top 6 player and it wouldn’t significantly affect their team’s PP%. I also think there’s some players who get decent PP points because they’re just their team’s best option, but wouldn’t touch the puck as much on a better PP, and other players who play roles like a net front presence who might be a big part of the effectiveness but not score as much.

In general, I tend to put players in three PP categories. They’re either elite difference makers, poor PP players, or somewhere in the mushy middle. For players like Draisaitl, his PP prowess puts him above some players who might be better 5v5. Meanwhile for a players like prime Brendan Gallagher or Viktor Arvidsson, I think their poor PP play hurt them in comparisons against players who weren’t as efficient 5v5 but could perform on a top PP unit. For more mushy middle players, I think if they’re both elite 5v5 I’d rather have the slightly better 5v5 player, because I’d rather have someone be as elite as possible at what they’re good at and then try to improve the PP another way. If they’re both similar mushy middle 5v5 to their PP play, then maybe whoever has the bigger advantage whether that’s on the PP or at 5v5. It’s all about trying to make the best team and maximizing your strengths in every area, which also means certain players are better fits on different teams as well, which is why direct comparisons can sometimes be pointless.
 
One thing to consider is some players are poor PP players that can't generate or convert offense Ina structured offensive setting


Guys like Gallagher, Danault, and Tatar for the Habs were strong ES players for a few years but they didn't have the IQ and skills on the PP to produce compared to other options

That’s where I think sometimes these questions are more team dependent and not useful in a vacuum. If you’re Montreal when those three were a strong 5v5 line, and you can add another Danault or Gallagher type or you can add a 60-70 point guy who is only ok 5v5 but strong on the PP, you’re going to maybe value the PP player more when trying to add another forward to the lineup, whereas if you already have a PP like the Oilers, guys like Danault and Gallagher from a few years ago would be much more valuable additions than the 60-70 point PP guy. I think that’s where the idea of a point is a point falls apart as well, because how they fit on a team is very dependent on role.
 
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You want the guy that produces at even strength. Sometimes you only get one/two calls a game which translates to a little over a minute of PP time.
 

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