How much more dominant Soviets would have been

[WarriorofTime]

Which tournament are you referring to?

The Olympics obviously and the World Championships to a lesser extent. That was what they geared their team around. Not the "Canada Cup".

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

The Olympics obviously and the World Championships to a lesser extent. That was what they geared their team around. Not the "Canada Cup".

You mean the Olympics and World Championships where Canada's team consisted of a group of college kids while the Soviets used a professional team comparable to an NHL all-star team, that practiced year round together? Yeah, there was certainly nobility in those victories. I'm sure if Canada had sent NHL players during those decades, the Soviets still would have been the undisputed masters of the universe.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You mean the Olympics where Canada's team consisted of a group of college kids while the Soviets used a professional team comparable to an NHL all-star team, that practiced year round together? Yeah, there was certainly nobility in those victories. I'm sure if Canada had sent NHL players during those decades, the Soviets still would have been the undisputed masters of the universe.

Keep mowing down them straw men. All I said is that was what the Soviets cared most about winning, and they were dominant in that regard. If you don't think it "counts" or whatever then fine. Doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Union dominated the Olympics and World Championships.

Don't make stupid statements about the Soviets being an "embarrassment".

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

Keep mowing down them straw men. All I said is that was what the Soviets cared most about winning, and they were dominant in that regard. If you don't think it "counts" or whatever then fine. Doesn't change the fact that the Soviet Union dominated the Olympics and World Championships.

Don't make stupid statements about the Soviets being an "embarrassment".

The Soviets were an embarrassment. They were world-class players, no question. But by masquerading themselves as amateurs, winning a bunch of tournaments against scrubs from every other country and acting as though it was some sort of amazing feat, it lacks nobility and sportsmanship. That's something I won't ever respect.

If Hockey Canada managed to pull the top 25 Canadian players in the world out of the NHL, had them practice together year round, then put them into a tournament with a few run of the mill Spengler Cup teams, a few decent AHL teams and a couple of top level CHL teams, where they won the tournament convincingly, do you think anyone in this country would consider that a crowning achievement?

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Soviets were an embarrassment. They were world-class players, no question. But by masquerading themselves as amateurs, winning a bunch of tournaments against scrubs from every other country and acting as though it was some sort of amazing feat, it lacks nobility and sportsmanship. That's something I won't ever respect.

If Hockey Canada managed to pull the top 25 Canadian players in the world out of the NHL, had them practice together year round, then put them into a tournament with a few run of the mill Spengler Cup teams, a few decent AHL teams and a couple of top level CHL teams, where they won the tournament convincingly, do you think anyone in this country would consider that a crowning achievement?

Sounds like your problem is with the IOC and the whole "amateur" thing for the Olympics. Maybe you aren't really aware of how the Soviet players actually lived. They certainly were not highly-paid, spoiled professionals like this generation of Russian players. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to show some respect for the great players they produced and the great system (that was emulated by successful NHL teams) they executed.

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

Sounds like your problem is with the IOC and the whole "amateur" thing for the Olympics. Maybe you aren't really aware of how the Soviet players actually lived. They certainly were not highly-paid, spoiled professionals like this generation of Russian players. I don't know why it's so difficult for you to show some respect for the great players they produced and the great system (that was emulated by successful NHL teams) they executed.

I respect the Soviet players' skill. I do not respect their actions. On another note, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion. I think you're just a bitter American who's still hurting over what happened in Sochi. I have a feeling that if it weren't a Canadian who was against the actions of the Soviet teams, your reaction wouldn't be so hostile.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I respect the Soviet players' skill. I do not respect their actions. On another note, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion. I think you're just a bitter American who's still hurting over what happened in Sochi. I have a feeling that if it weren't a Canadian who was against the actions of the Soviet teams, your reaction wouldn't be so hostile.

Then why did you call them an embarrassment to the sport?

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

Then why did you call them an embarrassment to the sport?

Read the thread again?

 

[VMBM]

As for respect, I'll never respect the Soviets because almost all of their wins are tainted by the fact that they faced next to zero legitimate competition by masquerading their pros as amateurs.

Interesting then that "the best team ever" (i.e. 1976 Team Canada) had so much problems with Czechoslovakia in the 1976 Canada Cup, considering that (according to you) they were not "legitimate competition".

In fact, Canada's W-L-T record vs. Czechoslovakia in Canada Cups 1976-1987 is 4-1-2. Not overly dominant, wouldn't you say? Czechoslovakia won the world championship in 1972, 1976, 1977 and 1985. Sweden also had good teams at the WCs (e.g. world champions in 1987).

They trailed in both games, they were down 3-1 to a bunch of Canadian college kids early in the 2nd period being outshot by a wide margin (the game's on youtube)

The (overall) shots were 35-26 for USSR.

It was a bad tournament for USSR. Still, one bad performance (and difficult transition period) doesn't change the fact that they were indeed dominant in 1978-1984... clearly more dominant than ever before.

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

Interesting then that "the best team ever" (i.e. 1976 Team Canada) had so much problems with Czechoslovakia in the 1976 Canada Cup, considering that (according to you) they were not "legitimate competition".

In fact, Canada's W-L-T record vs. Czechoslovakia in Canada Cups 1976-1987 is 4-1-2. Not overly dominant, wouldn't you say? Czechoslovakia won the world championship in 1972, 1976, 1977 and 1985. Sweden also had good teams at the WCs (e.g. world champions in 1987).

There's a reason I used "next to zero" instead of "zero".

 

[Zine]

The Soviets were an embarrassment. They were world-class players, no question. But by masquerading themselves as amateurs, winning a bunch of tournaments against scrubs from every other country and acting as though it was some sort of amazing feat, it lacks nobility and sportsmanship. That's something I won't ever respect.

If Hockey Canada managed to pull the top 25 Canadian players in the world out of the NHL, had them practice together year round, then put them into a tournament with a few run of the mill Spengler Cup teams, a few decent AHL teams and a couple of top level CHL teams, where they won the tournament convincingly, do you think anyone in this country would consider that a crowning achievement?

You should study your history.

The Soviets were no different than other European countries. For most of USSR's hockey existence, all European countries defined themselves as amateurs. The notion of 'Amateurism' was ingrained in European sport; and not only in hockey.

 

[An Argument For]

You should study your history.

The Soviets were no different than other European countries. For most of USSR's hockey existence, all European countries defined themselves as amateurs. The notion of 'Amateurism' was ingrained in European sport; and not only in hockey.

Yeah but the only other European countries who had hockey programs worth mentioning back then were Sweden and Czechoslovakia. Finland was still a peg below and the U.S didn't really pick up strength until the 80s - 90s.

I'm not saying that Soviet Team wasn't great. They were obviously a fantastic team with a fantastic program. We're just disputing their "dominance" as it applies to the sport of hockey. The dominated tournaments that were stacked in their favor and when the playing field was leveled they weren't the obvious favorites to win and the didn't win at an incredible rate.

They produced a lot of great players but the players weren't better than their peers. When the Soviets came into the NHL they made an impact on their teams but no one was saying, "You know what? Maybe Lemieux, Gretzky, Bourque, Hawerchuk, Coffey etc..aren't really the best players in the world."

I think the Soviet program was amazing but they also had a benefit of a lot of practice and development as a national team and that continuity and cohesiveness is hard to replicate in a few weeks of an assembled all star team.

If Canada and the US had been allowed/able to use their best possible teams in the Olympics and the World Championships I think the Soviets would have still won each tournament on certain occasions but it would not have been considered "Soviet Dominance".

 

[Pominville Knows]

You should study your history.

The Soviets were no different than other European countries. For most of USSR's hockey existence, all European countries defined themselves as amateurs. The notion of 'Amateurism' was ingrained in European sport; and not only in hockey.

Not even touching canadians and americans, it was as early as the early seventies when aforemost many swedish players made the jump to the NHL and WHA and therefore did not have the same possibilities to join the WHC, and definately not the OG. Within a couple of years we had a full team over there. Obviously the Stastny brothers and a bunch of others went not too long after as well, and even Finns might i add since they at least had a number of players unavailable over there. To claim that it was mostly a referee problem in the Canada Cups is speculation at best, especially considering the soviets chemistry.

 

[dreamingofdrouin*]

I didnt think any parts of the hockey world were still so uneducated on the subject but by now everybody should know that the russians have only ever won one best on best tournament...and I don't know about everyone else but i learned a long time ago that in order to be the best, you have to beat the best....it was somewhere between learning to talk and walk. grow up fools and stop making excuses,......canada is the dominant hockey country,,as US is to basketball and football.......brazil to soccer.....the netherlands to speed skating...etc

 

[An Argument For]

I didnt think any parts of the hockey world were still so uneducated on the subject but by now everybody should know that the russians have only ever won one best on best tournament...and I don't know about everyone else but i learned a long time ago that in order to be the best, you have to beat the best....it was somewhere between learning to talk and walk. grow up fools and stop making excuses,......canada is the dominant hockey country,,as US is to basketball and football.......brazil to soccer.....the netherlands to speed skating...etc

The Spanish and Germans don't care for your soccer references..

 

[daver]

If they had the MASSIVE referee advantage like Canada did in Canada Cups, had not been disturbed in their hotels and had not played a socialistic game where everyone played as much no matter if it was PP or SH?

Funny how NHL refs are trusted more now than refs from other leagues to ref the Olympics.

I think the better question though is how much more dominant would Team Canada had been if they had trained year round. They beat them with 2 weeks prep time.

 

[Macman]

The NHL Olympics are turning out to be almost as dominant for Canada as the Canada Cups were three decades ago. I wonder what alternate universe fantasies will be concocted in the future to try to diminish that?

 

[Pominville Knows]

One should really gather fantasy rosters of each non-amateur-imagitarian countries for the different Olympic Games that the soviets won, and compare it to the bum teams that had to chance to play in them.

Take Sweden in 1980 for example, only NHL players at the time: (Obviously the soviets did not even win this one)

Gustafsson-K Nilsson-Hedberg
Labraaten-Gradin-Kallur
Brasar-U Nilsson-Lindström
Edberg-Andersson

Salming-Persson
Lindgren-Sjöberg
Svensson-Bergman

Högosta
Åström

Obviously we could have completed the team with actual olympians that year like Lindbergh, Mats Näslund, Mats Åhlberg and Tomas Jonsson. To make a team which i feel could rival the USSR.

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

Yeah but the only other European countries who had hockey programs worth mentioning back then were Sweden and Czechoslovakia. Finland was still a peg below and the U.S didn't really pick up strength until the 80s - 90s.

I'm not saying that Soviet Team wasn't great. They were obviously a fantastic team with a fantastic program. We're just disputing their "dominance" as it applies to the sport of hockey. The dominated tournaments that were stacked in their favor and when the playing field was leveled they weren't the obvious favorites to win and the didn't win at an incredible rate.

They produced a lot of great players but the players weren't better than their peers. When the Soviets came into the NHL they made an impact on their teams but no one was saying, "You know what? Maybe Lemieux, Gretzky, Bourque, Hawerchuk, Coffey etc..aren't really the best players in the world."

I think the Soviet program was amazing but they also had a benefit of a lot of practice and development as a national team and that continuity and cohesiveness is hard to replicate in a few weeks of an assembled all star team.

If Canada and the US had been allowed/able to use their best possible teams in the Olympics and the World Championships I think the Soviets would have still won each tournament on certain occasions but it would not have been considered "Soviet Dominance".

Pretty much this. If you'll all read through the thread again, I called the Soviet players world-class and said I respected their skill. No one is disputing the fact that the Soviet system produced top-flight hockey players. I don't respect them because of their lack of sportsmanship. If you watch interviews with Soviet hockey players from the 70s-80s, they displayed incredible arrogance and a lack of respect for their opposition. They truly believed that they were on some other level by beating no-name scrubs from second-teir hockey countries year after year. In order to be considered the best, in order to be considered "dominant", you need to beat the best and that's something the Soviets rarely ever did.

 

[Dacks]

So the soviets dominated tournaments where they sent their best players and the only other hockey superpower didn't or wasn't allowed.

Congratulations? I guess I'm the dominant volleyball player of my generation because I keep winning my Thursday night intermediate intramural volleyball games.

 

[Patchy]

The Soviets were an embarrassment. They were world-class players, no question. But by masquerading themselves as amateurs, winning a bunch of tournaments against scrubs from every other country and acting as though it was some sort of amazing feat, it lacks nobility and sportsmanship. That's something I won't ever respect.

This is the most sad, pathetic, delusion and biased thing I have ever read on a sports internet board that I actually started laughing.

It's like you totally believe that Soviet should have had the exact same culture and views as Canada and that Stanley Cup and your Canada Cup were their biggest goals. Disregarding every fact that, you know, not everybody share the same culture as Canada when it comes to ice hockey?

Like honestly believing that for a Spanish kid growing up his biggest goal in life should be to win the Premier League and if he goes to Real Madrid and wins titles there and celebrates he is an embarrassment and lack sportmanship.

 

[kasps]

The only best on best the Russians won was the 81 Canada cup. Not really all that impressive. But ...". Way to beat Poland by 10 every game !

 

[TonsofPuppies*]

This is the most sad, pathetic, delusion and biased thing I have ever read on a sports internet board that I actually started laughing.

It's like you totally believe that Soviet should have had the exact same culture and views as Canada and that Stanley Cup and your Canada Cup were their biggest goals. Disregarding every fact that, you know, not everybody share the same culture as Canada when it comes to ice hockey?

Like honestly believing that for a Spanish kid growing up his biggest goal in life should be to win the Premier League and if he goes to Real Madrid and wins titles there and celebrates he is an embarrassment and lack sportmanship.

It has nothing to do with culture. The Canada Cup would likely have never even come into existence had Canada actually had a level playing field with the Soviets from the beginning. Chest thumping over beating a bunch of no-name scrub hockey teams while your only true competitor isn't allowed to actually compete is nothing to be proud of. That's the point. Clearly you missed it.

 

[Frank the Tank]

They had the biased reffing advantage in Moscow during the 1972 Summit Series and still lost the last three games. Once Canada was in shape and started playing like a team with chemistry, even a massive advantage in PP was not enough for the Soviets to win the series.

 

[saskganesh]

The Russians (and other Soviets) looked pretty dominant at the '79 Challenge Cup and '81 Canada Cup.