How Many Points Would Gretzky Have In Today's Game?

[ResilientBeast]

Well I am waiting to see your placemat, then.. because I'm quite confident that, if you simply adjust by average scoring, Gretzky in his prime would be in the range I said.

Not that I think it is that simple, really.

In fact 7 of Gretzky's seasons fall in that range and an 8th is really close though adjusted points suck

1981-82 NHL 156 (1st)
1982-83 NHL 159 (1st)
1983-84 NHL 163 (1st)
1984-85 NHL 166 (1st)
1985-86 NHL 170 (1st)
1986-87 NHL 155 (1st)
1988-89 NHL 139 (2nd)
1990-91 NHL 146 (1st)

 

[Samzilla]

Gaudreau is roughly 5lbs lighter than Gretz AND 3" shorter. Ennis is 3" shorter, but has 15lbs on Gretz. Marner and Kane are the almost the same height as Gretz but have 15-20 lbs on him. Pound per Inch... Gretzky was much more slight than those 4 guys. Surely there's other guys in the league you can pull up that are around Gretzky's frame, to refute my claim, no? I mean there's literally 600+ players in the league (now).

That's not even addressing actual conditioning. Or do you guys think that Gretzky could press and lift the same as those guys, too? Come to think of it, I don't know if I ever seen a photo of Gretz any where near exercise equipment. I'm sure he worked out at least, yeah? Jumpin' jacks and stationary bike, maybe? Anybody got anything?

You have to know that half of my opinion has be formed by a lot of what Gretzky has said himself, about how he would measure up to today's game. I'm not just hatin-on-Wayne here. I don't need to hate on Wayne.

Gaudreau's the guy that took 20 whacks in the wrists and was out for 6 weeks, right?

Marner's missed just about as many games to injury in his rookie year as Gretzky did in his first 8 years. That's weird, right?

Kaner's an exceptional player, for sure. Much beefier than Gretz, though. Ennis is waaayyy more solid than Gretz.

Edit: I don't think Gretzky would have to play physical. I posed the question of if others were going to play him as physical as they do Sid (and McD, etc).

Gretzky is very humble about himself and prone to hyperbole regarding anyone else. Remember, Gretzky said the Canucks signing Ryan Miller was the greatest FA signing of the last 15 years. Do you believe that?

 

[BeatenLikeRentedMule]

I get a kick out of some of you guys judging and putting down Gretzky. Its not worth the time. Some of you are fresh out of diapers and judging this great man? hahahaha

You have nothing and he has everything, but you seem to think you know how good or bad he would be. Its moot. Unless a computer geek puts a program together with all the analytics and such, no one will know. And, if you have never watched him play, or at least watched as many videos of him as you can, then your opinion is worthless.

You're making a broad generalization of anybody who doesn't share your worship of Wayne Gretzky. It doesn't make for healthy, mature dialogue.

FYI I've been watching hockey since 1977 and have witnessed the Habs dynasty, Islanders dynasty, Oilers dynasty.

The OP posed a hypothetical question here so expect lots of possible responses. If you thought we'd all say 99 would tally 140-200 points easy, you came to the wrong thread.

It's beyond hypocritical that when Mario fans ask the hypothetical question: what if he didn't suffer from a spinal disorder that led to nerves in his back being squeezed by the disks in his vertebrae, would he have managed to reach 215+ points a season and played 15-17 consecutive seasons ; Gretzky fans are the first to say "ifs" mean nothing and yet come here to force their hypothetical "ifs" down everyone's collective throats like it were gospel and bash anyone who doesn't praise him to the high heavens.

Meanwhile we're supposed to feel bad for a shove from Suter when Mario really needed someone to tie his skates for him from 1990 onward.

The only thing you're right is that Gretzky had everything including protection on the ice with Semenko and McSorley, protection from the league who awarded him a Hart trophy in 1989 when Mario accounted for 57% of the Pen's goals that season. And let's not pretend 99's back issues were anywhere close to what Mario had to deal with.

 

[george14]

The fact that Gretzky produced at an advanced age (Mario as well) shows he could definitely play in todays game. He led the league in assists and was 5th in Hart voting at 37 years old. Veterans from the late 80's early 90's were still able to score post lockout, so I don't see why Gretzky couldn't.

Sakic: 100 points in 2007 at 37
Shanahan: 40 goals in 2006 at 37
Selanne: 31 goals in 2011 at 40
Recchi: 68 points in 2007 at 39
Sundin: 32 goals in 2008 at 37

These guys are all levels below Gretzky and had no problem being good - elite players in their late 30's. I think it's obvious Gretzky would not be able to put up 200 points in todays game considering the goaltending now is significantly better, along with the talent pool being more broad as well. But I have no doubt he would still be the best player in the game.

 

[Irato99]

You're making a broad generalization of anybody who doesn't share your worship of Wayne Gretzky. It doesn't make for healthy, mature dialogue.

FYI I've been watching hockey since 1977 and have witnessed the Habs dynasty, Islanders dynasty, Oilers dynasty.

The OP posed a hypothetical question here so expect lots of possible responses. If you thought we'd all say 99 would tally 140-200 points easy, you came to the wrong thread.

It's beyond hypocritical that when Mario fans ask the hypothetical question: what if he didn't suffer from a spinal disorder that led to nerves in his back being squeezed by the disks in his vertebrae, would he have managed to reach 215+ points a season and played 15-17 consecutive seasons ; Gretzky fans are the first to say "ifs" mean nothing and yet come here to force their hypothetical "ifs" down everyone's collective throats like it were gospel and bash anyone who doesn't praise him to the high heavens.

Meanwhile we're supposed to feel bad for a shove from Suter when Mario really needed someone to tie his skates for him from 1990 onward.

The only thing you're right is that Gretzky had everything including protection on the ice with Semenko and McSorley, protection from the league who awarded him a Hart trophy in 1989 when Mario accounted for 57% of the Pen's goals that season. And let's not pretend 99's back issues were anywhere close to what Mario had to deal with.

The problem with this topic is that there's no purpose other than having people arguing until death. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong, nobody will ever come at the end and tell us the right answer to the question, it doesn't exist, and too many elements are missing to even try to give a great approximation, is it a time machine or Gretzky is born in the 2000s, which team, who's coaching, does he train like players today, etc...

But no he wasn't protected by the league, he had protection like every star player of his era with a teammate who could fight, and his back injury nearly ended his career, these are facts.

 

[Fourier]

Too many things are involved in the equation.

-Greztky did 200 pts but many average/ok players were doing 120-140. Dennis Maruk 136, Nicholls 150. Gretzky was being help by all of fame teamates, alot of players were not. Gretzky in Winnipeg with Paul Mclean, Deblois, Boschman etc vs Hawerchuk in Edm with the hall of famers, Hawerchuk would of done easy 150+ and Gretzky would of dropped to 180 as his best seasons for sure. Yzerman when he reached potential did 130-155 on a bad team with little help.

I pass to Coffey who goes coast to coast and do all the work its not like passing to Brad Marsh. I pass to Kurri in the slot, he will get a quality shot......not always the case with Bob Probert!

Unless you lived in Edmonton in the late 70's or early 80's you probably did not see much of the Oilers. But the argument about relying on superstar team mates breaks down when you realize that he broke Esposito's record as a 19 year old playing on a team filled with guys that nobody had ever heard of.

Kurri was a 20 year old rookie who had never played in North America before. He was also a 69th pick in the previous draft. The year before he had been outscored in the SM-Liga by the great Henry Leppa.

Coffey had 32 points and was in Sather's doghouse for a huge part of the year. The Oilers most consistent offensive defenseman that year was Risto Siltanen.

Messier had a minor profile. He was a legend in the Alberta Junior Hockey League but more so because he was the toughest guy in the league. If you suggested at the beginning of that year to anyone in the hockey world that he would be an all star let alone one of the best to ever play the game you may have had a pretty significant debate on your hands.

Anderson was a 19 year old that no one even knew existed.

That year Gretzky led the Oilers in scoring by 89 points. He had 34 more assists than anyone else had points on the team. Even the next year when Gretzky hit 212, virtually no one would have said it was because his team was a group of future Hall of Famers.

The Oilers grew as a team throughout the decade. By 87-88 they were far better both individually and collectively. Yet Gretzky`s numbers actually declined because his game evolved to be less about being the guy who has to bring offense every shift.

Gretzky didnt have good skaking ability, was not in the best of his era(against the bad defensemen) to carry and control the puck. He would have difficulty against the fast and big defensement now for sure. His hockey sense and power plays would be his big assets.

If you want to say that Gretzky was not the fastest guy in his era you would be correct, but he was a lot faster than legend suggests. But to say he was not a great skater is 1000% false. He was incredibly agile. He could change direction or stop on a dime like no one I have ever seen.

I don`t even know what to say about your comments concerning puck carrying and control. Honestly, di you ever watch him play.

The weak players like Gaudreau now have tools to avoid the big hits, you need to be elusive, great skater..............Gretzky didnt have these tools and often along the board would just give the puck to avoid being hit. This + the respect part + the fact he was weak was preventing him from being hit.

Conclusion on this. I dont know if he could cope with all this honestly.

Your last paragraph makes me shake my head. It could not be farther from the truth. In particular, once you say that Gretzky did not have the tools to avoid hits your credibility is pretty much gone. If there is a player in the history of the game more able to use his skills to avoid hits than Gretzky I have certainly never seen him.

 

[Tweed]

If we pushed a button on a time machine and 24yr old Gretzky showed up...I think he would probably be less effective than the optimists would believe.....

...but if we pushed a button on a time machine and baby Gretzky came and was billeted with Crosby's family and went though his training, then he would win the scoring race every year

The question is, are we talking about an exact clone of Gretzky from the 80's or a Gretzky-like player that grew up in this generation? If the latter, I would assume that he'd adapt to the modern style and compete for the Art Ross on yearly basis.

Gretzky was questioned about this very scenario... and his thought was that he wouldn't be able to adjust to the times, physically. He stated he felt he'd be able to play, using his smarts... but he said there would be no change to his physique based on growing up the same way as today's athletes. Said it wasn't in his make-up or nature.

 

[Tweed]

Well I am waiting to see your placemat, then.. because I'm quite confident that, if you simply adjust by average scoring, Gretzky in his prime would be in the range I said.

Not that I think it is that simple, really.

Placement can be whatever you want, you pick, go for it... I honestly don't care. The 80s, whichever year you choose, are a far cry from this decade in terms of scoring output. If you wanna pick a year that Gretzky was less dominant, and show the math that translates to that being > an era-adjusted 60pt differential over McDavid this year... I'll totally cheer you on, and check out your numbers.

 

[Butch 19]

gretzky would be an average superstar in todays NHL because every NHL player today has some of gretzky's hockey DNA.

.

LOL!!

So why wasn't he just an average superstar during his prime NHL days because every single NHL player just had to watch him play and copy his moves?

 

[Tweed]

I get a kick out of some of you guys judging and putting down Gretzky. Its not worth the time. Some of you are fresh out of diapers and judging this great man? hahahaha

You have nothing and he has everything, but you seem to think you know how good or bad he would be. Its moot. Unless a computer geek puts a program together with all the analytics and such, no one will know. And, if you have never watched him play, or at least watched as many videos of him as you can, then your opinion is worthless.

Funny you should say that.

 

[Tweed]

Gretzky is very humble about himself and prone to hyperbole regarding anyone else. Remember, Gretzky said the Canucks signing Ryan Miller was the greatest FA signing of the last 15 years. Do you believe that?

Yeah, you guys gotta stop playing that humble-card. The discussion isn't about how Gretz is evaluating the next projected #1. There's a huge difference between being humble, and people discrediting everything you say when you self-assess, because you're known to be humble. Let's get real. I don't think Wayne is worried the world will turn on him if he says he thinks he could take a hit in today's game.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Placement can be whatever you want, you pick, go for it... I honestly don't care. The 80s, whichever year you choose, are a far cry from this decade in terms of scoring output. If you wanna pick a year that Gretzky was less dominant, and show the math that translates to that being > an era-adjusted 60pt differential over McDavid this year... I'll totally cheer you on, and check out your numbers.

How did I know this would fall apart for you as soon as you are challenged to actually offer something instead of turning it back on everyone else?

I already offered you my estimate. My estimate is actually reasonable considering the change in average scoring levels.. although again I have to say that I think it is much more complex than that.

That estimate did not include being > a 60pt differential over McDavid. At the top end of my range estimated, it equaled that. You just made that up.

Now if you have anything to actually add to this conversation that is not pure opinion, please share it. The weak unsupported arguments are a waste of everyone's time. We've been over this stuff 1000 times on the board here and you aren't bringing one new or reasonable argument to the table.

 

[ChuckLefley]

It's kind of humorous that, in these anti-Gretzky threads, there is always a couple of people arguing against Gretzky who have to answer every single post that does not agree with them...regardless of logic or facts.

 

[Tweed]

How did I know this would fall apart for you as soon as you are challenged to actually offer something instead of turning it back on everyone else?

I already offered you my estimate. My estimate is actually reasonable considering the change in average scoring levels.. although again I have to say that I think it is much more complex than that.

That estimate did not include being > a 60pt differential over McDavid. At the top end of my range estimated, it equaled that. You just made that up.

Now if you have anything to actually add to this conversation that is not pure opinion, please share it. The weak unsupported arguments are a waste of everyone's time. We've been over this stuff 1000 times on the board here and you aren't bringing one new or reasonable argument to the table.

I'm not dodging anything, or making anything up. You're the guy that shot out 140-160 points. Go with 140 then, I don't care. Let's split the difference and call it 150. You pick a year you think was Gretzky's best, and I'll even do the math for you. My god. It's not rocket science. Like I said, Crayons on Placemats. I think your estimate is BRUTALLY high, no matter which side of that 20 point fence you finally decide to settle on.

It's simple. What year of Gretzky are you picturing in your mind's eye, when you say THAT Gretzky would score 1XX pts in today's game?

 

[Elche1975]

The fact that Gretzky produced at an advanced age (Mario as well) shows he could definitely play in todays game. He led the league in assists and was 5th in Hart voting at 37 years old. Veterans from the late 80's early 90's were still able to score post lockout, so I don't see why Gretzky couldn't.

Sakic: 100 points in 2007 at 37
Shanahan: 40 goals in 2006 at 37
Selanne: 31 goals in 2011 at 40
Recchi: 68 points in 2007 at 39
Sundin: 32 goals in 2008 at 37

These guys are all levels below Gretzky and had no problem being good - elite players in their late 30's. I think it's obvious Gretzky would not be able to put up 200 points in todays game considering the goaltending now is significantly better, along with the talent pool being more broad as well. But I have no doubt he would still be the best player in the game.

You know that people voting are the medias and they overate players and stick with them forever....Price will always gets vote for the same reason.

The reality is that Gretzky at 29 took a first big drop and then another one at 33.

From 33 to the end, in 5 seasons he averaged 20 goals 90 pts and -55. In those years they were heaps of 100 pts+ guys. So when you play over 20 min per game, with good teams/good teamates and you start all power play + you even get to get an extra 15 pts because you're on the ice when there is an empty....the numbers are not great specially if you are 100% offensive mind like was his job. A 90 pts guy who think defense first would of done way more if he was all in on offense.

Also numbers are not everything, Sakic 100 pts at 37 are way more impressive. 1-less goals in that era 2-didnt play with the nyr's millionnaire clubs, was with guys like Andrew Brunette and made him get 83 pts!! You can't even compare!

 

[Tweed]

It's kind of humorous that, in these anti-Gretzky threads, there is always a couple of people arguing against Gretzky who have to answer every single post that does not agree with them...regardless of logic or facts.

It's not an Anti-Gretzky thread. When people speak to me, I respond. Just because I'm prepared to debate my perspective, doesn't mean I'm wrong-and-strong. You're comin' at me with your weak-stuff now, Chuck.

You got something to say to me, or about me, grow a pair and quote me to make sure I get the notification.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'm not dodging anything, or making anything up. You're the guy that shot out 140-160 points. Go with 140 then, I don't care. Let's split the difference and call it 150. You pick a year you think was Gretzky's best, and I'll even do the math for you. My god. It's not rocket science. Like I said, Crayons on Placemats. I think your estimate is BRUTALLY high, no matter which side of that 20 point fence you finally decide to settle on.

It's simple. What year of Gretzky are you picturing in your mind's eye, when you say THAT Gretzky would score 1XX pts in today's game?

Get your crayons ready because you can literally adjust any of his big seasons by average scoring levels and end up roughly in the range I gave you.

His adjusted seasons were already posted up thread. I believe those seasons are adjusted to 6 gpg so if you do it to a specific season like last year where it was below 3 gpg per team, they would be lower but still in my range.

Good luck.

 

[Tweed]

Get your crayons ready because you can literally adjust any of his big seasons by average scoring levels and end up roughly in the range I gave you.

His adjusted seasons were already posted up thread. I believe those seasons are adjusted to 6 gpg so if you do it to a specific season like last year where it was below 3 gpg per team, they would be lower but still in my range.

Good luck.

1981-82 NHL 156 (1st)
1982-83 NHL 159 (1st)
1983-84 NHL 163 (1st)
1984-85 NHL 166 (1st)
1985-86 NHL 170 (1st)
1986-87 NHL 155 (1st)


So you're comfortable with these ^ seasons?

I can use any one of those seasons, to show how you projecting him at 140-160 today, would be more dominant than any of those seasons? (I don't know if the math bears out, but I want to get your green-light, and word-in-stone, before I do it.)

 

[Elche1975]

Unless you lived in Edmonton in the late 70's or early 80's you probably did not see much of the Oilers. But the argument about relying on superstar team mates breaks down when you realize that he broke Esposito's record as a 19 year old playing on a team filled with guys that nobody had ever heard of.

Kurri was a 20 year old rookie who had never played in North America before. He was also a 69th pick in the previous draft. The year before he had been outscored in the SM-Liga by the great Henry Leppa.

Coffey had 32 points and was in Sather's doghouse for a huge part of the year. The Oilers most consistent offensive defenseman that year was Risto Siltanen.

Messier had a minor profile. He was a legend in the Alberta Junior Hockey League but more so because he was the toughest guy in the league. If you suggested at the beginning of that year to anyone in the hockey world that he would be an all star let alone one of the best to ever play the game you may have had a pretty significant debate on your hands.

Anderson was a 19 year old that no one even knew existed.

That year Gretzky led the Oilers in scoring by 89 points. He had 34 more assists than anyone else had points on the team. Even the next year when Gretzky hit 212, virtually no one would have said it was because his team was a group of future Hall of Famers.

The Oilers grew as a team throughout the decade. By 87-88 they were far better both individually and collectively. Yet Gretzky`s numbers actually declined because his game evolved to be less about being the guy who has to bring offense every shift.



If you want to say that Gretzky was not the fastest guy in his era you would be correct, but he was a lot faster than legend suggests. But to say he was not a great skater is 1000% false. He was incredibly agile. He could change direction or stop on a dime like no one I have ever seen.

I don`t even know what to say about your comments concerning puck carrying and control. Honestly, di you ever watch him play.



Your last paragraph makes me shake my head. It could not be farther from the truth. In particular, once you say that Gretzky did not have the tools to avoid hits your credibility is pretty much gone. If there is a player in the history of the game more able to use his skills to avoid hits than Gretzky I have certainly never seen him.

Your mistake is to compare Era's....and thats why you're making the same mistake assuming Gretzky's play would be the same now.

Esposito did it in a era with less goals. The NHL expansion brought much more goals. The western conference were like almost NFL games!

If Gretzky arrive 5 years before he doesnt beat that record.

Kurri never played before doesnt change the fact that he could and he did a good season. Kurri is no Kevin Stevens, he did good without Gretzky, both were using each other, Kurri was a 40-50 goals scorer who did way more because of Gretzky and Gretzky did way more points using his sniper ability. Gretzky like i said in Winnipeg or Detroit instead of Hawerchuk or Yzerman would of never got 200 pts.

Messier and Anderson did good too, Anderson almost 1 pts per game. I wouldnt compare that team to Detroit, New Jersey, Pittsburgh of the 80's! It was a young team promised to a great future who would increase each year a bit like Toronto now or Pittsburgh aroud 2005-2006.

I am from Quebec so i am use to this! Here Price was drafted and they were talking of the cup. Beaulieu is worth almost Crosby! Kovalev was a top 5 players in the NHL for people here.....its a bit the same everywhere

What you need to realise is that with whatever tools(not alot) you can be a star in some era's. Maurice Richard could fly coast to coast and score 5 goals with a back injury! Why? Not because he was so great, because the tools he had at that time were over the average. The same guy in 2017 is just a guy like many others!

Gretzky in his bio says he cant turn on a 10 cents, that he always had to fight many flaws(not a strong guy, not a great skater and average shot), he was compensating all this with the vision, hockey sense....if you think that guys in 2017 couldnt touch Gretzky this makes me shake my head!! Guys today they can skate against olympic skater and beat them on short track and not look like fools on long track!

Look at some highlighs from the 80's and imagine just a Jonathan Drouin against these guys, look at this video and see how alot of them are just looking like chicken with no head, there was no system at all! I invite you to look at this video and be honest and tell me how many goals would really happen in 2017 from this? And to tell me if these defenders can play defense.

I think you go too much on emotional and memories and need to listen to your eyes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTwqw3eHYes&t=618s

 

[Elche1975]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTwqw3eHYes&t=618s

Same test for anyone, how many of these goals would happen in 2017? Would you see teams like that with that bad zone coverage?

A guy like Crosby with his stenght, skating ability etc would get like 2-3-4 chances to score on each shift simply!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

You know that people voting are the medias and they overate players and stick with them forever....Price will always gets vote for the same reason.

I agree that the voters sometimes seem to vote based on reputation, but it seems unlikely that this happened with Gretzky. He's the only player in the history of the NHL to win an Art Ross trophy and earn zero votes for the Hart trophy in the same year - 1994.

 

[Samzilla]

Yeah, you guys gotta stop playing that humble-card. The discussion isn't about how Gretz is evaluating the next projected #1. There's a huge difference between being humble, and people discrediting everything you say when you self-assess, because you're known to be humble. Let's get real. I don't think Wayne is worried the world will turn on him if he says he thinks he could take a hit in today's game.

So you do believe that Ryan Miller was the greatest FA signing of the last 15 years?

 

[ChuckLefley]

It's not an Anti-Gretzky thread. When people speak to me, I respond. Just because I'm prepared to debate my perspective, doesn't mean I'm wrong-and-strong. You're comin' at me with your weak-stuff now, Chuck.

You got something to say to me, or about me, grow a pair and quote me to make sure I get the notification.

Hey, Mr. Anonymous Internet Tough Guy you are just one person who fits what I described.

You are wrong (it's been proven many times, but you keep coming back with "weak stuff" and moving goalposts) and you most certainly aren't strong (just look at how you got worked up about my post about multiple people).

Run along junior, all your doing is proving you are a bad loser.

 

[puckyeah]

Not as many.

 

[ChuckLefley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTwqw3eHYes&t=618s

Same test for anyone, how many of these goals would happen in 2017? Would you see teams like that with that bad zone coverage?

A guy like Crosby with his stenght, skating ability etc would get like 2-3-4 chances to score on each shift simply!

A lot don't happen because we have goalies who go to their knees and hop they get hit in the crest. The zone coverage is better because we have assistant coaches, easily accessible video and losing is worse because it's a business now. That being said, wouldn't Gretzky be able to use all that? Wouldn't he take advantage of the top shelf being open for his pinpoint accuracy. Wouldn't his amazing ice awareness and passing still set up guys with open chances? Wouldn't he be able to research the goalies and other teams tendencies and take advantage of them via video, instead of just doing it with his great memory?

Why do we talk about Crosby having things he would not have had back in the 80's?

By the way: