How Long Did It Take Gretzky to be Regarded as the GOAT?

[Turin]

I wasn't born yet, but regardless of the sophistries being tossed around I think everybody knew he was the best player of all time by 1982 pretty easily.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Gretzky kept on proving the doubters wrong:

• Mid to late 1970's - sure, he was scoring at comical rates against minor leaguers, but he was too small and frail to do the same against adults
• 1979 - sure, he had a very good season in the WHA (3rd in scoring at age 18), but it didn't count because it wasn't against NHL competition
• 1980 - sure, he had a really good rookie season, but it was a fluke - his opponents would figure him out, sooner or later
• 1981 - sure, he set the all-time record for points in a season, but the Oilers were knocked out in the second round - Gretzky wasn't a winner
• 1982 - sure, he set the all-time record for goals, assists and points in a season, but the Oilers suffered a huge upset in the first round, which is further proof that you couldn't win with the smallish, non-physical Gretzky as your best player (plus Canada lost in the Canada Cup)
• 1983 - sure, he had yet another stellar regular season, and yes he helped bring the Oilers to the Stanley Cup finals, and yes he set the all-time record for points in a playoff run, but he was completely contained by Denis Potvin and the Islanders in the finals
• 1984 - sure, it was yet another excellent regular season, and yes he had another very good playoff run, and yes the Oilers won the Stanley Cup, but Mark Messier took the Conn Smythe, which still proves that Gretzky (despite all the points he racked up in the regular season) wasn't the team's leader

I think even Gretzky's harshest critics acknowledged he was (at least) top three all-time by 1985. After six years, he had six Hart trophies and five Art Ross trophies. He had scored 1,122 points in 473 games. He had the 1st, 2nd, 4th and T-5th single-season goals totals in NHL history. He had the top five single seasons for assists and points. He won two Stanley Cups, three playoff scoring titles and a Conn Smythe (which proved he was a "winner"). Plus, he was the leading scorer in two Canada Cup tournaments (with one gold medal).

(For what it's worth, journalist Stan Fischler ranked Gretzky 10th all-time in 1984, and 2nd all-time in 1988. He seemed to be fairly conservative in his ranking of newer players - except for his beloved Islanders - so, if anything, this is lower than the mainstream consensus).

 

[Nathaniel]

I was not born yet. But what was the talk of the hockey world when mario scored 199?. Did it take some shine off of Gretzkys 200 point years. Or did it do the opposite to lemieuxs 199?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Fun fact: the term GOAT wasn’t popularized until the 2000 song by LL Cool J.

It was first coined by Ali’s wife who created a company called G.O.A.T. In the early 90s to handle Ali’s IP.

semi-obscure mid-90s indie rockers knew early

 

[AlternateSideParking]

I would say no later than 1986 or 1987 was when it became widespread agreement. But in both 1984 and 1985, all the major publications at the time — THN, SI, Sporting News, Hockey Digest — considered him the greatest ever. There really was no debate TBH.

 

[DFC]

I'll bet 200 points made a pretty strong case.

 

[JianYang]

In the 1980s for sure.

Yeah, my first memories are from around 1990 and his status was already solidified by that time.

 

[LTIR]

1971 .
That's when he was called 'the great one' for the very first time. He was just 10.

 

[Cats2TheCup]

He was labelled generational before NHL by most.

Yup. Like Bedard.

 

[93LEAFS]

I can't give you a date. But, I will say as someone born in the late 80's and remembers hockey back to the early/mid 90s (I'd say the first lockout season is when I clearly remember the NHL so like 95), that most adults I asked had him as the GOAT and the player to look up to. You'd hear occasional Lemieux or Orr arguments but they were few and far between.

 

[LightningStorm]

Gretzky kept on proving the doubters wrong:

• Mid to late 1970's - sure, he was scoring at comical rates against minor leaguers, but he was too small and frail to do the same against adults
• 1979 - sure, he had a very good season in the WHA (3rd in scoring at age 18), but it didn't count because it wasn't against NHL competition
• 1980 - sure, he had a really good rookie season, but it was a fluke - his opponents would figure him out, sooner or later
• 1981 - sure, he set the all-time record for points in a season, but the Oilers were knocked out in the second round - Gretzky wasn't a winner
• 1982 - sure, he set the all-time record for goals, assists and points in a season, but the Oilers suffered a huge upset in the first round, which is further proof that you couldn't win with the smallish, non-physical Gretzky as your best player (plus Canada lost in the Canada Cup)
• 1983 - sure, he had yet another stellar regular season, and yes he helped bring the Oilers to the Stanley Cup finals, and yes he set the all-time record for points in a playoff run, but he was completely contained by Denis Potvin and the Islanders in the finals
• 1984 - sure, it was yet another excellent regular season, and yes he had another very good playoff run, and yes the Oilers won the Stanley Cup, but Mark Messier took the Conn Smythe, which still proves that Gretzky (despite all the points he racked up in the regular season) wasn't the team's leader

I think even Gretzky's harshest critics acknowledged he was (at least) top three all-time by 1985. After six years, he had six Hart trophies and five Art Ross trophies. He had scored 1,122 points in 473 games. He had the 1st, 2nd, 4th and T-5th single-season goals totals in NHL history. He had the top five single seasons for assists and points. He won two Stanley Cups, three playoff scoring titles and a Conn Smythe (which proved he was a "winner"). Plus, he was the leading scorer in two Canada Cup tournaments (with one gold medal).

(For what it's worth, journalist Stan Fischler ranked Gretzky 10th all-time in 1984, and 2nd all-time in 1988. He seemed to be fairly conservative in his ranking of newer players - except for his beloved Islanders - so, if anything, this is lower than the mainstream consensus).

Wasn't born yet, but this seems to be a good timeline summary from what I've heard about reservations people had about him. His greatest of all time 1985 postseason is when I think it was impossible for any reasonable case at all being made for him not being the GOAT.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Fun fact: the term GOAT wasn’t popularized until the 2000 song by LL Cool J.

It was first coined by Ali’s wife who created a company called G.O.A.T. In the early 90s to handle Ali’s IP.

Huh, I'm 47 years old and never heard goat used so much until that simulator game came around. Goat simulator.

Then there's that old meme where the goat is talking or something?

It's all very fuzzy.

I used to eat Gretzky's Pro Star cereal. And enjoyed his Crispy Chicken Deluxe.

 

[Bombshell11]

Gretzky is only the goat to people who dont know.

Every NHL enthusiasts know the real goat is Mario Lemieux and if he was healthy would have definitly over 1100+ goals and maybe even be the first one to reach 3000 pts.

 

[Chainshot]

I was not born yet. But what was the talk of the hockey world when mario scored 199?. Did it take some shine off of Gretzkys 200 point years. Or did it do the opposite to lemieuxs 199?

It was viewed as an amazing accomplishment, not an indictment of Gretzky's seasons.

As to the original question, around '82 there was a lot of talk about how special he was as a player. 164 points to set a new scoring record as just a 20 year old at the end of '80-81 and then previously unknown territory by going over 200 points the following year, with the 92 goals. It was his world, we were all just watching him in it.

 

[Video Nasty]

if he was healthy would have definitly over 1100+ goals and maybe even be the first one to reach 3000 pts.

Exact same thing can be said about Gretzky.

 

[Bombshell11]

Exact same thing can be said about Gretzky.

Im talking about abiut pro rated to Gretzky’s games

 

[boredmale]

Some point between him breaking 200 points(82) and his first cup(84)

 

[Strangle]

Was there a ground swell of that thought as he entered the league (as in his potential not actually being the greatest) and then after 4 cups it became unanimous or did it take longer?

He was the goat from the time he was 9 years old

There were doubters with the same arguments you hear today. Not big enough, not in good enough shape, not fast enough, shot isn’t hard enough, etc etc

They were just as wrong then as they are today repeating the same tired arguments about ‘nutrition’ (they mean steroids when they say this) and ‘fitness’.

Gretzky scored 300 goals against 14 year olds when he was 9. I’m not sure how hyperbolic that is, but it might even be accurate

 

[landy]

He was the best in history within his first three seasons, considered the greatest by most after winning the Cup in 1984, and got most of the last holdouts on board after winning it again and picking up the Conn Smythe in 1985.

So he was the greatest after just five seasons—six seasons tops.

As @MrLunatik already said, the term GOAT specifically and the tunnel vision it allowed these discussions to devolve into didn’t really begin for all players in all sports until much later.

Is that true? So 5 years into his career, he was already considered that? Seems pretty wild if so.

 

[Thallis]

Gretzky is only the goat to people who dont know.

Every NHL enthusiasts know the real goat is Mario Lemieux and if he was healthy would have definitly over 1100+ goals and maybe even be the first one to reach 3000 pts.

This is bait

 

[Toby91ca]

I'm sure it didn't take long at all....no idea as I was too young in the very early 80s to be involved in greatest of all time discussions. I'm sure by his 2nd season, while many might not declare him the greatest of all time at that very point in time, they figured that's where he was headed (similar to how people look at McDavid....not ready to put him at a certain spot in all-time rankings, but figuring he'll end up in a certain spot when he's finished).

Before Gretzky arrived, there were only 5 instances in the history of the game (I think) where the leading scorer outpaced #2 by 20 or more points....with the most being 26pts. In Greztky's 2nd year in the league (.....starting at 19 years old...1980-81 season), he won the scoring title by 29pts, also scored 89pts more than his closest teammate. In year 3 he won the scoring title by 65pts, outscoring his closest teammate by 107pts. It started to become pretty clear this guy might be special. Year 4 he won by 72pts, year 5 by 79pts. This is simply domination that no one had ever seen before, not even close.

 

[NVious]

Gretzky is only the goat to people who dont know.

Every NHL enthusiasts know the real goat is Mario Lemieux and if he was healthy would have definitly over 1100+ goals and maybe even be the first one to reach 3000 pts.

The only problem is that Lemieux never eclipsed him in anything AND he was injured.

He didn't have the most points in a season
He didn't have the highest ppg in a season
He didn't score the most goals in a season
He didn't have the highest gpg in a season
He won half the cups

In terms of talent one could argue he was equal to Gretzky which most people agree with, but he can't be the GOAT due to his results and the fact he never even eclipsed Wayne in anything to make an argument he's better. He literally has no argument.

Peak=Gretzky
Longevity=Gretzky
Results=Gretzky
Hardware=Gretzky

I guess Talent=Draw, therefore 4/5 going to Gretzky means Lemieux is the GOAT? Cmon

 

[Toby91ca]

Gretzky scored 300 goals against 14 year olds when he was 9. I’m not sure how hyperbolic that is, but it might even be accurate

So that isn't really something that ever happened. He did play against guys a lot older when he was younger, but the huge stats you hear about are mostly at his age level. At 8-9 he scored 104 goals (62 games), playing against guys mostly 2 years older), then the next year he scored 196 goals (78 games) playing guys mostly a year older and then the following year, playing guys mostly his age, he scored 378 goals (85 games).....almost unbelievable type stats, but he wasn't scoring that as a 9 year old against 14 year olds.

 

[Toby91ca]

Im talking about abiut pro rated to Gretzky’s games

But why would you do that? People talk about Lemieux all the time and what if....he would have broken all of Gretzky's records, etc. A lot of that has to do with Gretzky saying those things, but that's just what Gretzky does....he seems to rank about 20 guys better than himself. Also, there was a time when Gretzky's career PPG stat fell below 2ppg and Mario was ever so slightly above that and that got people to talk as well. The problem is that Mario simply didn't play long enough or enough into his older years to see his PPG dip that much....as he played a bit later on, it came down....but he still never played enough for it to be impacted too much.

People can extrapolate to show if he had played the same number of games as Gretzky, but you'll still come short of Gretzky's 2,857pts and, as noted, completely unfair to assume some continues to score at that high of a clip over another 500+ games.

Mario had 690 goals and 1,723pts over 915 games. Reality is, after Gretzky's 915th game, he had 715 goals and 2,119pts.

 

[Strangle]

So that isn't really something that ever happened. He did play against guys a lot older when he was younger, but the huge stats you hear about are mostly at his age level. At 8-9 he scored 104 goals (62 games), playing against guys mostly 2 years older), then the next year he scored 196 goals (78 games) playing guys mostly a year older and then the following year, playing guys mostly his age, he scored 378 goals (85 games).....almost unbelievable type stats, but he wasn't scoring that as a 9 year old against 14 year olds.

I knew I was being hyperbolic but I wasn’t sure of the exact numbers and ages