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How in the world is Theo Fleury not in the Hall by now?

BrassCompels

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Jun 27, 2019
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He played in by far the hardest era, at just 5’6. Was one of the dominant forwards in his prime. He was the first of his kind, that trail blazed for guys like Martin St. Louis.

He’s over a PPG in 1000+ games.

1088Pts in 1044Gp

Stanley Cup Champion and Gold Medal Champion.

He overcame sexual abuse in minor hockey. He’s better and has more credentials than some that are already in the Hall. Obviously, they’re keeping him out because of his last drug and alcohol abuse, but that’s a mental health issue, and not a problem that he decides to commit on purpose or to harm others.
 
He's a borderline Hall of Famer (wouldn't even be close in my own personal standard, but by the Hall's standard he's probably good enough).

To answer your question, I think they're nervous about Fleury's induction speech, and also there are a lot of bridges he's burned in the game. I've said this several times, but in his book Fleury basically throws under the bus about 50% of the hockey players and coaches he spent time with, which includes some All-Stars and Hall of Famers. They don't like that kind of thing.
 
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He might belong in the Barrasso category now..............guys that are almost certainly in if they weren't considered jerks by the media. No doubt, Fleury's off-ice stuff has hurt him. I don't know if it is the drugs and alcohol stuff that has kept him out, maybe it was at one time, but I think time has healed that and the whole Graham James thing probably brings a little more understanding to it.

I can sort of see Fleury's bitterness to a point. Let's not pretend that a kid who played hockey under James for a long time doesn't have some sort of score to settle. There were probably tons of times people saw things about James that they should have looked into. I mean, it wasn't as if Jerry Sandusky's revelations at Penn State came as a shock to many, they knew about it, they hid it. I don't know all about the James situation as I am sure he was a big deceiver of things, but if you are a teenager aren't you just hoping that SOMEONE can catch on to what this guy is doing? In hindsight, and as a victim, I might feel bitter.

The question is, hasn't Fleury sort of been out of the spotlight for some time? I haven't heard him say anything much lately so maybe his airing of things is done. If so, I think they need to just look at his hockey career.

Let's be frank here, is his career weaker than Lanny McDonald's? Same position, same team (at different times) but much different results in the HHOF. I don't like using the whole "why is he in and not him?" but how is one a first ballot and the other not even in? To me a lot of it has to do with the fact Fleury is just not the establishment's type.
 
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Big Phil said:
Let's be frank here, is his career weaker than Lanny McDonald's? Same position, same team (at different times) but much different results in the HHOF. I don't like using the whole "why is he in and not him?" but how is one a first ballot and the other not even in? To me a lot of it has to do with the fact Fleury is just not the establishment's type.
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Lanny fit all the criteria back then for a HOF resume:
500 goals
1000+ points
Consistent player
Stanley Cup
No off ice issues/on ice issues.

Fleury had his issues, on and off the ice. Heck of a player while growing up while I give him that but eh..yeah he somewhat falls into the Tom Barrasso category of "I tell it like it is" sorta thing..
 
Fleury's reputation and record of off-ice/on-ice issues has probably been the single biggest thing keeping him on the outside. But we've seen other players end up getting into the Hall despite issues of their own. For example, Ciccarelli and Belfour were each arrested and served jail time (albeit for a few hours only). The question, I guess, is where is the line drawn in terms of bad behavior.
 
vikash1987 said:
Fleury's reputation and record of off-ice/on-ice issues has probably been the single biggest thing keeping him on the outside. But we've seen other players end up getting into the Hall despite issues of their own. For example, Ciccarelli and Belfour were each arrested and served jail time (albeit for a few hours only). The question, I guess, is where is the line drawn in terms of bad behavior.
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Dino it took him a while and some people wondered when he was getting in. Let's not forget, prior to his induction he was a name who was constantly thrown around on here as someone who isn't in but maybe should be. It wasn't like Dick Duff or anything where virtually no one was pushing for him.

As for Belfour, he was just too good for too long to ignore. Some bad behaviour like allegedly headlocking a hotel security guard and not always being the friendliest to his back ups didn't stop him from getting in because he was too good for too long. He was well beyond the Barrasso level where he is on either side of the fence. So they aren't going to keep you out for that if you are at his level.

Mike Farkas said:
Pick one to go in: Fleury or Patrik Elias...
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I am not a big fan of Elias going in so much, so I am picking Fleury here. Went well beyond being known as a "little guy" in the NHL. Held his own throughout the league. Right wing was a hard position at that time in the NHL to crack and stand out in.
 
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Cause he's a jerk.

At the same time, he is also the product of that pedo Graham James and a willfully-ignorant, dismissive hockey industry. Still, Fleury's overt personality flaws have rubbed myriad powerful people the wrong way.
 
Fleury's off-ice issues should be disregarded (given the context), and his bravery in speaking out about sexual abuse should be applauded. The HOF committee is nuts if his drug abuse plays a factor in their decision making. And his on ice actions and off ice remarks during his career were certainly no worse than a guy like Chelios.

Based on who has already been inducted (Duff, Lanny, Mullen, Dino, Carbonneau, etc.), Fleury should be a shoe-in.
 
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mrhockey193195 said:
Fleury's off-ice issues should be disregarded (given the context), and his bravery in speaking out about sexual abuse should be applauded. The HOF committee is nuts if his drug abuse plays a factor in their decision making. And his on ice actions and off ice remarks during his career were certainly no worse than a guy like Chelios.
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Chelios once alluded to the possible death of Bettman (during the Lock-Out), but other than that, I don't recall him saying anything bad about teammates, players, coaches. Fleury, on the other hand, has made a cottage industry of criticizing just about everyone in the game whose path he crossed.

Of course he should be applauded for speaking out about his abuse, and there is precedent for 'forgiving' his drug-abuse, and in his case the more so because we can all understand where some of those demons came from. I agree there. But Fleury also made the bed he currently lies in by insulting many powerful people in the sport.
 
The Panther said:
Chelios once alluded to the possible death of Bettman (during the Lock-Out), but other than that, I don't recall him saying anything bad about teammates, players, coaches. Fleury, on the other hand, has made a cottage industry of criticizing just about everyone in the game whose path he crossed.

Of course he should be applauded for speaking out about his abuse, and there is precedent for 'forgiving' his drug-abuse, and in his case the more so because we can all understand where some of those demons came from. I agree there. But Fleury also made the bed he currently lies in by insulting many powerful people in the sport.
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The those powerful people have say in who goes in the hall of fame, it's the politics that sway unfortunately.
 
Canadiens1958 said:
Performance similarities with Pat Verbeek abound:

Pat Verbeek Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
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Middleton seems to be a closer comparison.

Verbeek's playoff numbers are terrible.

Never a post season all-star, never a 90 point scorer. Fleury & Middleton both had multiple 100 point seasons and had all-star berths.

Fleury & Middleton were great skaters and playmakers, Verbeek more of a goal scorer.

Fleury and Verbeek were more similar in that they were both big penalty minute guys.
 
fleury's 12 year prime was inconsistent for reasons we know and reasons we don't know. but by itself it's still a pretty excellent regular season prime.

not sure what to do with his last two seasons in new york when he went off the rails mid-season, but it's worth mentioning that he was leading the league, or very close to it, decently deep into both seasons. part of me wonders whether he was peaking late, similar to per game in abbreviated seasons arguments made by some on behalf of his exact contemporary pierre turgeon. not that it makes or breaks his case, but it tells us he was an elite offensive talent far far far beyond the likes of pat verbeek.

1991: 2nd in goals, 18th in assists, 8th in points
1992: 33rd in goals, 58th in assists, 47th in points
1993: 46th in goals, 15th in assists, 20th in points
1994: 19th in goals, 42nd in assists, 26th in points
1995: 6th in goals, 22nd in assists, 6th in points
1996: 11th in goals, 31st in assists, 17th in points
1997: 33rd in goals 47th in assists, 36th in points* **
1998: 27th in goals, 7th in assists, 11th in points
1999: 7th in goals, 6th in assists, 7th in points
2000: 143rd in goals, 11th in assists, 41st in points
2001: 40th in goals, 33rd in assists, 37th in points*** ****
2002: 56th in goals, 35th in assists, 42nd in points*****

* In 1996, Kennedy came forward and announced publicly that he had suffered sexual abuse spanning ten years at the hands of his junior hockey coach. James was charged with sexual abuse in November 1996.

James pleaded guilty in January 1997 to 350 counts of sexual abuse against two hockey players, including Kennedy. James was sentenced to 3.5 years in prison – and quietly pardoned in 2007.

** Kennedy spent two seasons in Calgary, then the Flames decided not to renew his contract in 1996, shortly after his sexual abuse revelation.

*** tied for 1st in goals (with jagr) and points (with sakic) on january, 6, 2001

**** Mar 1, 2001 - New York Rangers forward Theo Fleury has reportedly voluntarily entered inpatient treatment under substance abuse and behavioral health

***** 2nd in assists, tied for 3rd in points on december 15, 2001
 
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To hold his off ice difficulties against him is another assault on Fleury.
That he suffered all that was heaped upon him by the game we all love was the original travesty. Fleury should be HOF due to his play and should be commended for all he went through and made public. That there are still power players who wish it had ll been swept under the rug is absolutely outrageous.
 
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