How good was Zibanejad in his prime?

[Rebels57]

He's gotten worse the longer his hair grows

 

[hangman005]

Alphabetically even during his prime, he was the last or one of the last players in the league.

 

[Rebels57]

in his prime? Maybe he hasn't reached it yet. Zuccy is more productive now than ever and he's older.

Zuccarello is aging well but he peaked in 21-22

 

[Machinehead]

He was #2C on that team, or maybe you could push it to like "1B" but seems revisionist to put him on a pedestal from that team. He was a really important piece, but far from a superstar center. They just had a bunch of very good forwards, a 1/2 punch down the middle with Krejci (who I guess just gets no love ever) and Bergeron, prime Chara and insane run from Thomas.

If Hurricanes win the cup this season, is that all thanks to Aho (who you could easily argue is a better center in comparison to his peers than either Krejci/Bergeron were at the time of their cup win)?

A "good enough" #1C becomes a "hall of fame" #1C or whatever is the criteria for a "stud #1C" once they win a cup or two, winning really boosts a players legacy, probably rightly so, but that means rosters of past winners will always be full of studs, not just on the #1C position.

Bergeron is a Hall of Famer on the Buffalo Sabres.

 

[CanadasTeam99]

He feels like the Sedins. Short burst and otherwise meh career

 

[yeaher]

He was God-tier right around COVID, never reached that peak again, but shit didn't he have like two five goal games that season, motherf***a has a peak of Wayne Gretzky with a trough of Brent Gretzky. He just been in the trough or a lot closer to it outside of that insane stretch.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

He was Jagr-lite for one season but got hurt. He had consistency issues all throughout his time in New York leading up to that point. Same deal in Ottawa, which is part of why he was traded for Brassard (the other part was money/Melnyk-bucks, but that's another can of worms). Prior to being traded for Brassard, Roy accepted an offer with Zib and Chabot for Duchene, but Sakic turned it down.

If you could put Mark Borowiecki's drive into him, he would have been the Swedish Gretzky, or at least the second Swedish Forsberg. The definition of his career is that he almost always left you wanting more, and you knew he could be great, but you also never he'd never be great because of the head on his shoulders - but that's just sometimes how the tables turn.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Has he really lost that much of his ability? He's only 31. He can still blast a shot and moves easily on the ice to my eyes. His issues seem more mental/emotional this season than physical.

I think it is possible that it isn't a coincidence that his effort level and output declined as soon as he was locked into a buyout proof retirement contract with a NMC.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Brassard and him were comparable

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

He was God-tier right around COVID, never reached that peak again, but shit didn't he have like two five goal games that season, motherf***a has a peak of Wayne Gretzky with a trough of Brent Gretzky. He just been in the trough or a lot closer to it outside of that insane stretch.

If I recall, he had that monster season right before COVID but got hurt before the season was cut short. If he maintained his pace, he would have challenged for the Rocket that season. Then the next year, I remember there being rumblings that he had long-COVID. He went from something really special, to taking a major step back for that season, so it makes sense.

People will see he scored 90 points or whatever later, but I still don't think those later seasons were as dominant as the 19-20 one. Scoring still hadn't exploded quite like it did a few years later, and he was on pace to win the rocket and finish top 10 in scoring while playing a big complete game.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Brassard and him were comparable

The only good thing about Brassard in Ottawa was that he was cost controlled for longer, and the Senators got a big return for him from Pittsburgh based purely on his reputation.

Zibanejad would have been more expensive in real dollars after his bridge deal was up, and I highly doubt the Senators would have been able to keep him. Outside of Craig Anderson and Zack Smith, they didn't extend any significant players beyond their RFA years during that time span. It's pretty clear they were going to harvest all the RFA years of their stars to try and win before Karlsson and Stone needed real money.

Feeling that way is part of way I never had the same kind of resentment for the Zib trade as most Sens fans do. I think if he stayed, they would have gotten the same 2 more years for him, and then probably traded him for less than what they got for Brassard. So it really didn't matter for them. They were never going to be in a position to pay him for his UFA years like the Rangers did, and stick with him for long enough to see his longer development through.

 

[lakeshirts37]

Brassard and him were comparable

Not at all

Would you say he is 2c or 3c?

I hope this is sarcastic

 

[lakeshirts37]

mid level 1C. Not elite. Could score but limited in some areas like defence. He would be an awesome 2C

His defense was excellent at one point. The concussions and god knows what else really affected his game. I’m a Rangers fan and I always felt that he was missing something, even when he was putting up a ton of goals and points and at his peak 2018-2022. I think its maybe his personality? He’s not that alpha dog type which I think affects how people view him - I dont know. at his best during those years he’d be a massive luxury as a 2C. He’s more of a 1B in my opinion.

 

[lakeshirts37]

The only good thing about Brassard in Ottawa was that he was cost controlled for longer, and the Senators got a big return for him from Pittsburgh based purely on his reputation.

Zibanejad would have been more expensive in real dollars after his bridge deal was up, and I highly doubt the Senators would have been able to keep him. Outside of Craig Anderson and Zack Smith, they didn't extend any significant players beyond their RFA years during that time span. It's pretty clear they were going to harvest all the RFA years of their stars to try and win before Karlsson and Stone needed real money.

Feeling that way is part of way I never had the same kind of resentment for the Zib trade as most Sens fans do. I think if he stayed, they would have gotten the same 2 more years for him, and then probably traded him for less than what they got for Brassard. So it really didn't matter for them. They were never going to be in a position to pay him for his UFA years like the Rangers did, and stick with him for long enough to see his longer development through.

No offense but this is delusional. Senators got fleeced in the trade. Mika was more expensive than Brassard on his next contract by a whole $350k aav for five years…so your point about not affording him makes no sense and if for some reason you needed to trade him after 2018 well then thats when he peaked so you’d get an absolute haul and way more than Brassard

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

No offense but this is delusional. Senators got fleeced in the trade. Mika was more expensive than Brassard on his next contract by a whole $350k aav for five years…so your point about not affording him makes no sense and if for some reason you needed to trade him after 2018 well then thats when he peaked so you’d get an absolute haul and way more than Brassard

Not it is not.

The Senators were not a cap team. The Rangers paid Brassard's bonus before the trade, which was not a coincidence. After his bonus was paid, Brassard's real money AAV was 3.33M for 3 years (3M, 3.5M, 3.5M). Zibanejad had a year remaining at 3.25M in real money, after that his QO was 3.25M and he was also arbitration eligible. So he was going to get more than Brassard, even on a 1-2 year settlement forced by arbitration.

As I said in my previous post, they bought up no UFA years for any significant players. Their last big contract was Bobby Ryan's extension, and after that things got locked down. Anderson was the exception because they obviously needed a goalie. Zack Smith was the only exception internally where they kept a player they developed beyond their RFA years. Everybody else had their RFA years harvested and then were sold off before they had to be paid. (Edit: They did buy up a few UFA years for Mike Hoffman as well, but that was a unique situation with a player developing late and the team being in a position to get UFA years for cheap because of it.)

The Senators entire window was informed by the Karlsson and Stone contracts. The collapse in 2017-18 most likely was not the cause of the rebuild and only expedited it. If you look at all the moves that Dorion and Murray made (Phaneuf, Brassard, Burrows, Duchene, etc), they all center around trying to win before Karlsson became an unrestricted free agent. My guess is that internally they had a reasonable idea that a selloff/rebuild was inevitable.

It's very fair to assume that if the Senators keep Zibanejad, they get 2-3 more years out of him at the cheapest possible salary (which would still be more expensive than Brassard was), and then they flip him as a rental. In that scenario, he almost certainly gets less than Brassard, because he didn't really start to produce at another level until his final RFA year, and there is no guarantee he produces that way in Ottawa's system.

Zib had 47 points the same year Brassard was traded. He scored 30 goals and 70+ points the year after. Duchene was on a near 100 point pace for Ottawa, and he got a cookie cutter rental return that had a playoff 1st, two B/C type prospects, and a conditional 1st that everybody knew would never transfer (CBJ had to sign him). Brassard got a fairly large return when he was dealt to Pittsburgh given the stature of Gustavsson at the time. It's unlikely that Zibanejad with his up and down reputation was going to get more than Brassard got either traded the same year as Brassard, or traded the year after.

I'll put it this way, you're entitled to disagree with my analysis, but if you don't even know that the Senators were a budget team who didn't care about Brassard's cap hit, it's very unlikely that you are in a position to analyze what the team was doing at that time. That's like the first most basic thing about the trade.

 

[lakeshirts37]

Not it is not.

The Senators were not a cap team. The Rangers paid Brassard's bonus before the trade, which was not a coincidence. After his bonus was paid, Brassard's real money AAV was 3.33M for 3 years (3M, 3.5M, 3.5M). Zibanejad had a year remaining at 3.25M in real money, after that his QO was 3.25M and he was also arbitration eligible. So he was going to get more than Brassard, even on a 1-2 year settlement forced by arbitration.

As I said in my previous post, they bought up no UFA years for any significant players. Their last big contract was Bobby Ryan's extension, and after that things got locked down. Anderson was the exception because they obviously needed a goalie. Zack Smith was the only exception internally where they kept a player they developed beyond their RFA years. Everybody else had their RFA years harvested and then were sold off before they had to be paid. (Edit: They did buy up a few UFA years for Mike Hoffman as well, but that was a unique situation with a player developing late and the team being in a position to get UFA years for cheap because of it.)

The Senators entire window was informed by the Karlsson and Stone contracts. The collapse in 2017-18 most likely was not the cause of the rebuild and only expedited it. If you look at all the moves that Dorion and Murray made (Phaneuf, Brassard, Burrows, Duchene, etc), they all center around trying to win before Karlsson became an unrestricted free agent. My guess is that internally they had a reasonable idea that a selloff/rebuild was inevitable.

It's very fair to assume that if the Senators keep Zibanejad, they get 2-3 more years out of him at the cheapest possible salary (which would still be more expensive than Brassard was), and then they flip him as a rental. In that scenario, he almost certainly gets less than Brassard, because he didn't really start to produce at another level until his final RFA year, and there is no guarantee he produces that way in Ottawa's system.

Zib had 47 points the same year Brassard was traded. He scored 30 goals and 70+ points the year after. Duchene was on a near 100 point pace for Ottawa, and he got a cookie cutter rental return that had a playoff 1st, two B/C type prospects, and a conditional 1st that everybody knew would never transfer (CBJ had to sign him). Brassard got a fairly large return when he was dealt to Pittsburgh given the stature of Gustavsson at the time. It's unlikely that Zibanejad with his up and down reputation was going to get more than Brassard got either traded the same year as Brassard, or traded the year after.

I'll put it this way, you're entitled to disagree with my analysis, but if you don't even know that the Senators were a budget team who didn't care about Brassard's cap hit, it's very unlikely that you are in a position to analyze what the team was doing at that time. That's like the first most basic thing about the trade.

Yes I understand. But the cost between Zib and Brassard was negligible. It was a dumb trade and I would have been furious if I was a sens fan. that being said, its ancient history and the sens have a really nice core so it worked out!

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Yes I understand. But the cost between Zib and Brassard was negligible. It was a dumb trade and I would have been furious if I was a sens fan. that being said, its ancient history and the sens have a really nice core so it worked out!

The cost difference was fairly substantial. They also wrongly believed that he was an upgrade.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Has he been around that long that he has exited his prime?

Time flies.