How good was Mike Gartner?

[vadim sharifijanov]

okay… “soon” after he left

my question though is do we actually know he was “great” or even good in the playoffs in washington or new york, or are we just looking to see if he hit a point/game?

because those being fairly anonymous series mostly before i started watching, i have no clue

like theo fleury’s series in the early 90s i know were great because i saw them. joe mullen in the 80s i *think* was great because he had a rep as a big game scorer. gartner has no such rep and was on teams with a reputation for not playing to their potential in the playoffs.

afaik there are no stories about gartner’s playoff heroics in the 80s but i’m all ears.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In my viewings, he seemed to play the same game in the playoffs as he did in the regular season more or less...and his production kind of reflects that. He scored a goal every other game in his RS career, but once every 3 games in his postseason career. I don't know, I'm not gonna claim be a Gartner playoff expert, but I'm similarly unaware of notable postseason play from him.

Here's his numbers in elimination games, FWIW:
GP - G - A - P - +/-

33​

13​

12​

25​

-6​

 

[FerrisRox]

I remember when Glenn Anderson was traded to the New York Rangers in exchange for Mike Gartner it was pointed out by a local columnist that the Leafs had just traded away a player known for stepping up his game in the post season in exchange for a player known for wilting in playoff hockey.

At the time of the deal, Anderson had posted 201 points in 185 playoff games. Gartner meanwhile had just 69 playoff points in 81 playoff games.

Then that spring Anderson manages to score two GWG in the Stanley Cup Final to help the Rangers win it all. (And did very little else all post season!)

 

[cupcrazyman2]

1980's NHL Goal Leaders

Gretzky............626
Kurri................474
Goulet.............438
Garner.............413
Bossy..............400
Vaive...............393
Anderson........389
Dino.................385
P.Statsny..........385
Hawerchuk......379

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I remember when Glenn Anderson was traded to the New York Rangers in exchange for Mike Gartner it was pointed out by a local columnist that the Leafs had just traded away a player known for stepping up his game in the post season in exchange for a player known for wilting in playoff hockey.

At the time of the deal, Anderson had posted 201 points in 185 playoff games. Gartner meanwhile had just 69 playoff points in 81 playoff games.

Then that spring Anderson manages to score two GWG in the Stanley Cup Final to help the Rangers win it all. (And did very little else all post season!)

i think the real comparison is '93 anderson to '94 gartner, and vice-versa

'93 anderson:

7 goals, 18 pts in 21 games, 2 GWG​

leafs went to game seven OT of the third round​

third round totals: 5 goals, 8 pts, 2 GWG*​

first two round totals: 2 goals, 10 pts in 14 games, 0 GWG (1 goal, 3 pts in two game sevens)​

'94 gartner:

5 goals, 11 pts in 18 games, 3 GWG​

leafs lost 4-1 in the third round​

third round totals: 0 goals, 1 pt​

first two round totals: 5 goals, 10 pts, 13 games, 3 GWG** (2 goals, 3 pts in three potential series deciding games, including two game winners)​

* tie-breaking third period goal in game one, OT winner in game five

** first period goal in a 1-0 elimination game win, 2-0 goal in the second period of an eventual 5-1 win, OT winner to force game seven


same team, same center (although anderson seems to have played most of the st louis series centered by krushelnyski), same role and these are the results. tbf to gartner, the first two rounds were a very good showing for him, before he disappeared against the canucks.


at the same time, as we talk about '94 anderson coming up big in games two and three of the finals but doing little else but i think where we really see anderson's contributions to that cup run are on matteau's game three 2OT winner against new jersey and the goal that haunts me in my dreams, the ridiculous messier to zubov sequence to set up leetch to go up 1-0 in game seven. i think we also have to wonder what gartner's role would have been on that team if he hadn't been traded. larmer was one of keenan's favourite players ever and was given very high usage. and young kovalev got a surprisingly large amount of icetime for a soviet rookie, although i think he mostly played center other than the famous messier hat trick game. but all to say, would gartner just have been the same bit part who sometimes got to skate with messier and graves that anderson was? and in that role, would we expect gartner to have done those glenn anderson wreaking havoc in the crease-type things?

 

[Moose Head]

No, I don't.

Agreed. Flanders and Gartner are good at what they do and are very nice men. Just not necessarily the guys you want to go to war with.

 

[overpass]

Was Gartner a bit unusual among star wingers in that he accomplished what he did without a lot of linemate support? You’d think his speed and shot could have resulted in even more goals if he had a playmaking centre to set him up in his prime. Apologies to Bob Carpenter who was a low-end #1 at best.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Maybe. But when you have the speed of Gartner, that was a big part of his deal...he could fly down the wing, he could beat a guy in the NZ with his skill, and then out-race a d-man and then he had a good enough shot to beat meh goalies regularly. If he doesn't have the puck a lot because the center has it, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Was he deadly enough early in his career from short to mid range? Maybe, maybe not. Did he have the ability to be more like Ciccarelli or even Esposito and just kind of appear in the slot or appear on the far post and put it in...? I'm not sure, and I don't mean that negatively, it's an honest "I'm not sure"...

You look at a guy like Kessel, where did he have some of his best seasons...? Centers of Tyler Bozak and Nick Bonino...a couple of guys who, if they had their way, wouldn't really have the puck that much...

This allowed Kessel to skate with it and use his strengths on his time...

Someone will correct me, but you look at a lower hockey sense player in Evander Kane - his best season, the first in Winnipeg, was with Kyle Wellwood (slow, but very skilled, not a puck carrier) at center for a sizeable chunk of it.

Ya know, obviously, Kane had a really good half of a season playing with the best player on the planet...but McDavid isn't available to any other team.

Even Ovechkin, early in his career, he didn't need anyone...he just played the game down hill. I've always wondered if Ovechkin had more assists from d-men than any other 50 goal scorer in history. Because he just got the puck and went...now, would Ovechkin really benefit from a playmaking center, I think for sure...because now he's basically Esposito. Just a sweaty ox-man with an absolute cannon shot. If Ovechkin can just pop into the slot or set up in his office on the dot and have someone else carry the puck and draw defenders to him, he'd score another 50. It's funny, I don't think that rookie Crosby and rookie Ovechkin would have gelled on the ice very well...but man alive, I bet now if they were together, they'd score more points now than they would have in their early primes...

 

[overpass]

Maybe. But when you have the speed of Gartner, that was a big part of his deal...he could fly down the wing, he could beat a guy in the NZ with his skill, and then out-race a d-man and then he had a good enough shot to beat meh goalies regularly. If he doesn't have the puck a lot because the center has it, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Was he deadly enough early in his career from short to mid range? Maybe, maybe not. Did he have the ability to be more like Ciccarelli or even Esposito and just kind of appear in the slot or appear on the far post and put it in...? I'm not sure, and I don't mean that negatively, it's an honest "I'm not sure"...

You look at a guy like Kessel, where did he have some of his best seasons...? Centers of Tyler Bozak and Nick Bonino...a couple of guys who, if they had their way, wouldn't really have the puck that much...

This allowed Kessel to skate with it and use his strengths on his time...

Someone will correct me, but you look at a lower hockey sense player in Evander Kane - his best season, the first in Winnipeg, was with Kyle Wellwood (slow, but very skilled, not a puck carrier) at center for a sizeable chunk of it.

Ya know, obviously, Kane had a really good half of a season playing with the best player on the planet...but McDavid isn't available to any other team.

Even Ovechkin, early in his career, he didn't need anyone...he just played the game down hill. I've always wondered if Ovechkin had more assists from d-men than any other 50 goal scorer in history. Because he just got the puck and went...now, would Ovechkin really benefit from a playmaking center, I think for sure...because now he's basically Esposito. Just a sweaty ox-man with an absolute cannon shot. If Ovechkin can just pop into the slot or set up in his office on the dot and have someone else carry the puck and draw defenders to him, he'd score another 50. It's funny, I don't think that rookie Crosby and rookie Ovechkin would have gelled on the ice very well...but man alive, I bet now if they were together, they'd score more points now than they would have in their early primes...

Oh yeah I’m familiar with the type of winger you’re talking about. In one of Pavel Bure’s Florida seasons he was assisted more by Robert Svehla than by either of his linemates, for another example. But I ran some numbers for Gartner at one point and I don’t think he stood out in terms of being assisted by defencemen rather than linemates.

I mean you could well be right and there’s a reason Gartner never really clicked with a playmaking centre in his career…but maybe he was like Marian Gaborik in Minnesota who could fill it up on his own but also fit really well with a Pavol Demitra or a Brad Richards when given the chance.

 

[FerrisRox]

Agreed. Flanders and Gartner are good at what they do and are very nice men. Just not necessarily the guys you want to go to war with.

Exactly.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Maybe. But when you have the speed of Gartner, that was a big part of his deal...he could fly down the wing, he could beat a guy in the NZ with his skill, and then out-race a d-man and then he had a good enough shot to beat meh goalies regularly. If he doesn't have the puck a lot because the center has it, maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Was he deadly enough early in his career from short to mid range? Maybe, maybe not. Did he have the ability to be more like Ciccarelli or even Esposito and just kind of appear in the slot or appear on the far post and put it in...? I'm not sure, and I don't mean that negatively, it's an honest "I'm not sure"...

You look at a guy like Kessel, where did he have some of his best seasons...? Centers of Tyler Bozak and Nick Bonino...a couple of guys who, if they had their way, wouldn't really have the puck that much...

This allowed Kessel to skate with it and use his strengths on his time...

Someone will correct me, but you look at a lower hockey sense player in Evander Kane - his best season, the first in Winnipeg, was with Kyle Wellwood (slow, but very skilled, not a puck carrier) at center for a sizeable chunk of it.

Ya know, obviously, Kane had a really good half of a season playing with the best player on the planet...but McDavid isn't available to any other team.

Even Ovechkin, early in his career, he didn't need anyone...he just played the game down hill. I've always wondered if Ovechkin had more assists from d-men than any other 50 goal scorer in history. Because he just got the puck and went...now, would Ovechkin really benefit from a playmaking center, I think for sure...because now he's basically Esposito. Just a sweaty ox-man with an absolute cannon shot. If Ovechkin can just pop into the slot or set up in his office on the dot and have someone else carry the puck and draw defenders to him, he'd score another 50. It's funny, I don't think that rookie Crosby and rookie Ovechkin would have gelled on the ice very well...but man alive, I bet now if they were together, they'd score more points now than they would have in their early primes...

for the last paragraph, i would venture that florida bure got an awful lot of those

for the first part, for gartner's part it looks like he was equally productive with and without an elite PMD

his first big season was 48 goals centered by ryan walter and his best dmen were rick green and rookie darren veitch

his 50 goal/100 pt season was with carpenter, and larry murphy and the young offensive scott stevens on the backend

his best goals placement (5th and two goals out of 2nd place) was centered by darren turcotte, with peaking brian leetch getting him the puck


unrelated, but i was today years old when i realized that gartner was teammates with larry murphy on three different teams: washington from '84 to '89, they were traded together to minnesota at the '89 deadline and lasted a year before gartner was traded the next deadline, then they were reunited on the '96 leafs. also the 1987 canada cup.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I mean you could well be right and there’s a reason Gartner never really clicked with a playmaking centre in his career…but maybe he was like Marian Gaborik in Minnesota who could fill it up on his own but also fit really well with a Pavol Demitra or a Brad Richards when given the chance.

anyone know why gartner played so little with messier at ES?

from what i can tell, in his almost three messier years he played mostly with nemchinov and young doug weight

 

[Big Phil]

You couldn't ignore Gartner's speed. He had that straightaway speed when chasing the puck that got attention. The rest of his game wasn't elite, but his speed was and it generated plenty for him. But the rest of his game was still good. He had a good shot, he could stickhandle if he needed to and he wasn't a perimeter player either. Not the best playmaker though. But again, that speed just made you respect things about him.

He never really had a prime. 9 40+ goal seasons. That's a lot of mustard right there. And while he did get 708 goals he retired right after the first season he didn't get at least 30 (1995 was a shortened year). So he never padded his stats.