How did Vegas get the reputation of being the establishment?

[Fish on The Sand]

Favorable expansion rules leading to immediate success.

Kraken had the same rules and have been your typical expansion team outside of a fluke season. It wasn't favorable expansion rules that led to success for Vegas, it was idiocy around the league just gifting talent to Vegas trying to play 4D chess.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

...how they treated MAF at the end was cutthroat...liked them until then...

 

[State of Hockey]

Kraken had the same rules and have been your typical expansion team outside of a fluke season. It wasn't favorable expansion rules that led to success for Vegas, it was idiocy around the league just gifting talent to Vegas trying to play 4D chess.

But therein lies the rub. Since Vegas was first, they benefitted from some teams being unsure of the direction Vegas would go and mismanaging their assets. They learned from it and gave Seattle less to work with. Also Vegas lucked out by a year where more teams were forced into a tough situation and there was no way Vegas wouldn't come away with good talent or future assets. The list of draftees from the two teams shows the talent gap. Didn't help Seattle that ironically Vegas was exempt from the expansion draft. One of the deepest teams at the time was safe.

But it's not just the draft either. Vegas was a day 1 media darling. They've been promoted like no other expansion team, and it continues to this day. Give Vegas credit for executing so well, but there's no question the deck was stacked in their favor compared to other franchises.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Kraken had the same rules and have been your typical expansion team outside of a fluke season. It wasn't favorable expansion rules that led to success for Vegas, it was idiocy around the league just gifting talent to Vegas trying to play 4D chess.

It was favorable compared to what my team had to choose from.

Teams had signed NTCs and NMCs years prior without knowing that expansion was going to happen, then all of a sudden you've got guys locked into protection because of it.

 

[JKG33]

But therein lies the rub. Since Vegas was first, they benefitted from some teams being unsure of the direction Vegas would go and mismanaging their assets. They learned from it and gave Seattle less to work with. Also Vegas lucked out by a year where more teams were forced into a tough situation and there was no way Vegas wouldn't come away with good talent or future assets. The list of draftees from the two teams shows the talent gap. Didn't help Seattle that ironically Vegas was exempt from the expansion draft. One of the deepest teams at the time was safe.

But it's not just the draft either. Vegas was a day 1 media darling. They've been promoted like no other expansion team, and it continues to this day. Give Vegas credit for executing so well, but there's no question the deck was stacked in their favor compared to other franchises.

A protection list isnt rocket surgery. It was a 1 team expansion draft. You can only lose 1 player. Protect your 8 or 10 best players or whatever it was and move on. Instead teams were paying Vegas for the privilege, sometimes losing 2 or 3 assets on top of a player they would lose anyway.

The funniest part however, was Dubas being one of the only GMs dumb enough to do it a second time, trading for McCann just lose him and keep Holl.

A strategy for 4D chess isnt needed when the game is checkers

 

[notbias]

Jealousy. They out smarted *insert your favorite team here*. People hate a winner because they wish their team was as smart.

These takes that the NHL handed them a great team out of the expansion draft are insane. The NHL didn't hand them shit. They outsmarted practically every team they made a trade with

And the salary cap... that was their smartest move and was not cheating at all.

They likely don't have a cup without that genius move.

 

[EdAVSfan]

A protection list isnt rocket surgery. It was a 1 team expansion draft. You can only lose 1 player. Protect your 8 or 10 best players or whatever it was and move on. Instead teams were paying Vegas for the privilege, sometimes losing 2 or 3 assets on top of a player they would lose anyway.

The funniest part however, was Dubas being one of the only GMs dumb enough to do it a second time, trading for McCann just lose him and keep Holl.

A strategy for 4D chess isnt needed when the game is checkers

For some teams it was more complicated.
Players with clauses forced protection.

I don’t recall how many teams had this dilemma, but it wasn’t a straightforward as your post suggests.

But Yes, a few GMs galaxy brained it and made it infinitely worse. I chalk that up to simply not being in that situation (expansion draft) either for a long time or even ever.

The experience from the 1st one clearly had its effect on Seattle. Teams were more prepared, knew what to expect and adjusted accordingly.

 

[Strangle]

I have nothing but respect for Vegas. They went out and got it done, exactly what I want from my team.

If I hated them I’d have to admit that it all stems from jealousy over their success.

I think their fans are spoiled though. We will see how much they stick with them when the team inevitably misses the playoffs for a decade and all of this success is just a mural in the hallway of the arena

 

[Kranix]

The draft itself wasn't that much easier on Vegas than previous expansions. 7 forwards protected instead of 9. I mean, come on. It was the side deals, like Anaheim giving them Shea Theodore so they would take Clayton Stoner

 

[JKG33]

For some teams it was more complicated.
Players with clauses forced protection.

I don’t recall how many teams had this dilemma, but it wasn’t a straightforward as your post suggests.

But Yes, a few GMs galaxy brained it and made it infinitely worse. I chalk that up to simply not being in that situation (expansion draft) either for a long time or even ever.

The experience from the 1st one clearly had its effect on Seattle. Teams were more prepared, knew what to expect and adjusted accordingly.

Teams also prioritized avoiding having tough conversations with some of their NMC players, a lot of them would not have been picked due to cap hits.

But even factoring in the NMC situations some teams had, a lot of teams ended up losing assets that were a greater net value than if they had just accepted their fate and lost 1 player.

 

[notbias]

A protection list isnt rocket surgery. It was a 1 team expansion draft. You can only lose 1 player. Protect your 8 or 10 best players or whatever it was and move on. Instead teams were paying Vegas for the privilege, sometimes losing 2 or 3 assets on top of a player they would lose anyway.

The funniest part however, was Dubas being one of the only GMs dumb enough to do it a second time, trading for McCann just lose him and keep Holl.

A strategy for 4D chess isnt needed when the game is checkers

McCann the playoff loser? Would have been a great keep.

I feel like you jump back and forth between deciding if a player is good or not based on playoff performance.

Anyway, the issue with the Vegas draft was lots of teams gave up players who were talented and in a down year or assets to take on another player (who sometimes also was just having a down year).

Vegas got their entire top line + a 1st from only two teams.

Anaheim traded Theodore to take Stoner
Columbus gave up a 1st+ to take Karlsson
Florida traded Smith to take Marchessault
Wild traded Tuch to take Haula
Islanders traded a 1st+ to take Grabovski
Pitts traded a 2nd to take Fluery

They then made a bunch of trades with extra players they picked up for even more picks.

Notice no one was making deals and just accepting the draft choices the next time around, GMs screwed themselves in this draft, and Vegas rightfully took advantage of it.

 

[EdAVSfan]

The draft itself wasn't that much easier on Vegas than previous expansions. 7 forwards protected instead of 9. I mean, come on. It was the side deals, like Anaheim giving them Shea Theodore so they would take Clayton Stoner

Yes, these kinds of deals ended up looking terrible in retrospect. But at the time, this type of deal was to protect 4 dmen. The main 2 being Vatanen and Manson.

This was the equivalent of Stoner and Theodore for Vatanen/Manson.
Obviously Theodore became what he became. But in a universe where Theodore doesn’t evolve to what he is, it’s likely a very good deal, because Stoner was negative value.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Teams also prioritized avoiding having tough conversations with some of their NMC players, a lot of them would not have been picked due to cap hits.

But even factoring in the NMC situations some teams had, a lot of teams ended up losing assets that were a greater net value than if they had just accepted their fate and lost 1 player.

Agreed. But again, I chalk that up to being in that situation for a first time. Those discussions were much more easily had during the Seattle expansion.
So I agree, GMs made mistakes.
But they seemingly corrected them all during the Seattle expansion simply from the experience of the Vegas one.

 

[Kranix]

Poile made a great side deal in 98. Acquired Timmonen so he wouldn't select Gary Galley. He just should have been more aggressive, banked more picks, exploited more dumb GMs. He could have but he didn't.

 

[JKG33]

McCann the playoff loser? Would have been a great keep.

I feel like you jump back and forth between deciding if a player is good or not based on playoff performance.

I'll answer this attempt at trolling once just cause I haven't heard from ya in forever.. but if you can't see the difference between losing a cost controlled asset for nothing, vs orienting your entire team's cap structure around paying 8 figure cap hits for a collection of playoff disappointments, idk what to tell ya.

Anyway, the issue with the Vegas draft was lots of teams gave up players who were talented and in a down year or assets to take on another player (who sometimes also was just having a down year).

Vegas got their entire top line + a 1st from only two teams.

Anaheim traded Theodore to take Stoner
Columbus gave up a 1st+ to take Karlsson
Florida traded Smith to take Marchessault
Wild traded Tuch to take Haula
Islanders traded a 1st+ to take Grabovski
Pitts traded a 2nd to take Fluery

They then made a bunch of trades with extra players they picked up for even more picks.

Notice no one was making deals and just accepting the draft choices the next time around, GMs screwed themselves in this draft, and Vegas rightfully took advantage of it.

This is a correct take. Anaheim was gunna lose a legit D no matter what. But Columbus, Florida, Minnesota, Pittsburgh all could've handled this better. Winnipeg also moved down in the draft to protect studs like... Armia, Perrault, and Little.

 

[I am not exposed]

It is so hilarious reading the favourable expansion draft rules when everyone at the time was laughing at how badly they did and predicted a bottom 5 finish in the league in their first season.

 

[notbias]

I'll answer this attempt at trolling once just cause I haven't heard from ya in forever.. but if you can't see the difference between losing a cost controlled asset for nothing, vs orienting your entire team's cap structure around paying 8 figure cap hits for a collection of playoff disappointments, idk what to tell ya.

They kept their preferred assets and lost someone who performs poorly in the playoffs.

His statline at the time as 2 secondary assists and 1 primary in 12 playoff games.

Don't understand how you'd want that player and call other players losers in the playoffs.

 

[JKG33]

They kept their preferred assets and lost someone who performs poorly in the playoffs.

His statline at the time as 2 secondary assists and 1 primary in 12 playoff games.

Don't understand how you'd want that player and call other players losers in the playoffs.

Yes, lets hold the $5m player to the same standard as the $10m players

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

Vegas being successful is in large part due to the incompetency of the 30 other GMs during that expansion draft. Some GMs literally paid Vegas to take some very good players, a few of which became core members of their Stanley Cup winning team.

Personally, I think they are a model franchise.

 

[notbias]

Yes, lets hold the $5m player to the same standard as the $10m players

Those are 4th line numbers...

 

[WarriorofTime]

But therein lies the rub. Since Vegas was first, they benefitted from some teams being unsure of the direction Vegas would go and mismanaging their assets. They learned from it and gave Seattle less to work with. Also Vegas lucked out by a year where more teams were forced into a tough situation and there was no way Vegas wouldn't come away with good talent or future assets. The list of draftees from the two teams shows the talent gap. Didn't help Seattle that ironically Vegas was exempt from the expansion draft. One of the deepest teams at the time was safe.

Vegas also didn’t get any of that sweet expansion fee $$$$ like all the other owners did.

 

[Hockeyfan200]

They also pull a bunch of bs during games that are ignored by refs, that's why

 

[ref19]

People also hate how cut-throat they have been to some fan favourite players in order to get better. Vegas is also a place most players want to be so they can get away with that.

Who has been clamoring to sign in Vegas with that management? Can't think of anyone really.

 

[Bender]

Same reason this was the case for the Avalanche in the 90's/2000's. Success right out of the gate.

As a fan of that franchise still to this day and since 1980 - I say -> up yours.

Those 4 straight last place finishes coincided with my entire high school experience.

 

[Armourboy]

It is so hilarious reading the favourable expansion draft rules when everyone at the time was laughing at how badly they did and predicted a bottom 5 finish in the league in their first season.

Not everyone. Several of us said they would be at least a bubble team min. Yeah lots of people thought they would be bad, but they were probably the same ones that thought Nashville was going to be a contender after the summer signings.