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How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

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Originally it wasn't if the Hawks extended it to 6 games, it was if either Conference Final didn't end in a sweep. So the NHL, who made the schedule in the first place, didn't realize a 9 day break would be bad before and decided to go from one extreme to another at some point. I wonder if it was before or after Datsyuk, Lidstrom, and Ericsson all went down with injuries?



http://www.espn.com/nhl/story?id=4213300&src=desktop

This all makes sense because rushing into the finals after only two days off with 3 games in 4 days would be absurd. No one in their right mind, such as the GMs or responsible league management, would make a schedule like that and try to propose it well in advance because it was crazy and wouldn't be accepted. The NHL changed things up on the fly and did it anyways.

Can you imagine it taking 9 days to start the Cup final? Come on, we don't need that. I hate that the Super Bowl takes two weeks. I don't think the NHL anticipated there would be a sweep and a 5 game series. I bet they thought at least one of them goes at least 6 games, maybe 7. When the Wings beat the Hawks it was obvious that this had to change. You can't do that in June. Even the hardest hockey fan of all is wanting things to wrap up. January you can get away with that with the Super Bowl I guess. No one is on the beach in January or basking in the nice weather. Plus the NFL is miles ahead in popularity than the NHL. The NHL buries themselves sometimes, but they can't afford to be off for 9 days during some of the best weather of the year. I know even as a hockey fan I want to be outside in June, not watching the NHL. I'll still watch it obviously, but still.

So they had two options, move it up but still accommodate NBC and the start of Conan on the Tonight Show and try not to interrupt that as much as possible or wait 9 days and hope interest hasn't faded. Would you have done the second one? I wouldn't have. But it isn't why Detroit lost.
 
Can you imagine it taking 9 days to start the Cup final? Come on, we don't need that. I hate that the Super Bowl takes two weeks. I don't think the NHL anticipated there would be a sweep and a 5 game series. I bet they thought at least one of them goes at least 6 games, maybe 7. When the Wings beat the Hawks it was obvious that this had to change. You can't do that in June. Even the hardest hockey fan of all is wanting things to wrap up. January you can get away with that with the Super Bowl I guess. No one is on the beach in January or basking in the nice weather. Plus the NFL is miles ahead in popularity than the NHL. The NHL buries themselves sometimes, but they can't afford to be off for 9 days during some of the best weather of the year. I know even as a hockey fan I want to be outside in June, not watching the NHL. I'll still watch it obviously, but still.

So they had two options, move it up but still accommodate NBC and the start of Conan on the Tonight Show and try not to interrupt that as much as possible or wait 9 days and hope interest hasn't faded. Would you have done the second one? I wouldn't have. But it isn't why Detroit lost.

Why do you always assume they only had two choices? How about compromising and doing the right thing with something in the middle? Instead they went from one extreme to another and played the first 3 games of the finals quicker than ever before.

So what if Conan's first show was on the Monday? That only meant they couldn't play on Monday. It's definitely not as black and white as you're making it out to be.
 
I already posted this in a response to you. It wasn't in the rule book, it was agreed upon by the GMs and then Bettman (aka Crosby's long lost uncle) decided he'd make his own rules.

As for your second sentence, absolutely no one here asked for that and neither did the Red Wings so why bring it up?



http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/05/lebrun_gary_bettman_fibbed_to.html



Originally it wasn't if the Hawks extended it to 6 games, it was if either Conference Final didn't end in a sweep. So the NHL, who made the schedule in the first place, didn't realize a 9 day break would be bad before and decided to go from one extreme to another at some point. I wonder if it was before or after Datsyuk, Lidstrom, and Ericsson all went down with injuries?



http://www.espn.com/nhl/story?id=4213300&src=desktop

This all makes sense because rushing into the finals after only two days off with 3 games in 4 days would be absurd. No one in their right mind, such as the GMs or responsible league management, would make a schedule like that and try to propose it well in advance because it was crazy and wouldn't be accepted. The NHL changed things up on the fly and did it anyways.

And there it is!

I'm actually surprised it took you 8 pages. Good on you for at least trying.
 
I hated the schedule adjustment at the time, still do, and don't think it's actually relevant that Detroit won the back to back. In fact, I think it's the opposite. If they lose game 1 and/or game 2, then it looks like whining. "Oh, we would have won, but" By doing it when they did win to say "This is bullcrap" seems like it should be more effective as a complaint. You screwed us, but we still won.

The one thing about that series that never should have happened was them rescinding Malkin's suspension. Regardless of the opinion on the rule itself, it was a rule on the books that the NHL decided to ignore... and then Malkin in game 3 assisted on three of the four Pittsburgh goals. Had the situation been reversed and Zetterberg went punching on Malkin's head at the end of a Wings' loss... there would be bloodcurdling screams coming out of Pittsburgh.

The league didn't want Detroit going up 3-0 because it would have eviscerated ratings and made their "we're gonna dick around with the schedule for ratings" worthless and stand out even more as something stupid.
 
MOD

Meanwhile, back on earth:

Rule 47.22 states: "A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five minutes or at any time in overtime shall be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident. The director of hockey operations will review every such incident and may rescind the suspension based on a number of criteria. The criteria for the review shall include, but not be limited to, the score, previous incidents, etc..."
 
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Meanwhile, back on earth:

Rule 47.22 states: "A player who is deemed to be the instigator of an altercation in the final five minutes or at any time in overtime shall be suspended for one game, pending a review of the incident. The director of hockey operations will review every such incident and may rescind the suspension based on a number of criteria. The criteria for the review shall include, but not be limited to, the score, previous incidents, etc..."

Colin Campbell's justification was bizarre to say the least:

"None of the criteria in this rule applied in this situation," NHL director of hockey operations Colin Campbell said in a statement issued by the league about an hour after the game ended. "Suspensions are applied under this rule when a team attempts to send a message in the last five minutes by having a player instigate a fight. A suspension could also be applied when a player seeks retribution for a prior incident. Neither was the case here and therefore the one game suspension is rescinded."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=424498

This took place with about 20 seconds left in the game with Pittsburgh down 3-1. Talbot speared Osgood in the chest and Malkin roared in and jumped Zetterberg. Malkin was given 5 for fighting and the instigator penalty. How exactly is that not "trying to send a message" and how was that not instigating a fight when the refs gave him the instigator?
 
No matter what I or anyone responds with, you will find a way to brush it off/call it a conspiracy/ignore it...so the question is, why bother?

Just trying to provide a small dose of the antidote to an otherwise poisonous thread...
 
No matter what I or anyone responds with, you will find a way to brush it off/call it a conspiracy/ignore it...so the question is, why bother?

Just trying to provide a small dose of the antidote to an otherwise poisonous thread...

I just showed what the Director of Hockey Operations had to say to justify rescinding the 1 game suspension. Go back and watch what Malkin did, and the fact that the refs gave him the instigator, and make a case for Campbell's decision and explanation. What he said doesn't seem to match what actually happened.

The problem is you are focusing too much on Mickey Redmond and not enough on actually making a case with supporting facts or arguments.
 
The difference is if the Hawks extended the series to 6 games the final would have started the following weekend. I remember thinking that the NHL was being stupid if that happened. No way did they need a week in between. So in a way I was hoping for the Wings to close it out in 5 because that made more sense to start it three days later, and it would be less deeper in June. Honestly, by the time early June comes, I am done with hockey. I just want the Cup final over so I can enjoy summer. It doesn't need to go longer. It would have been quite unusual to start it so late like that. So when the Wings finished it off in 5, it started at a normal time, three days later.

Your personal preference for when hockey is played has no bearing on what I said. The NHL moved the schedule ahead by six days, which benefited the healthier team, Pittsburgh. When you wanted to watch hockey has no relevance to that fact.

And by the way, can we stop crying a river about the Wings' injuries already? They had injuries, good for them, so have a lot of great teams and they still won. This is not the fault of the Pens.

Horrible logic. Some teams in the past have overcome bad situations, so no one can cite bad situations. You must believe that no one can ever complain about bad reffing because teams have won in the past because of bad reffing.

I do agree that Pittsburgh benefiting from the NHL's decisions is not Pittsburgh's fault. The fact is that Pittsburgh benefited. Anyone saying that Pittsburgh called the shots would have a very difficult case to make.

The healthier team benefitted from the change..............initially. Once the Wings went up 2-0 it didn't matter anymore. It was a complaint when it first happened. It is like saying, "Well, there should have been a penalty on that play, but we scored with the goalie pulled and the delayed penalty anyway." It just doesn't matter anymore about the back to back. The healthier team should have capitalized on it, but they didn't. Case closed. There were two full days off in between Game 5 and 6 and 6 and 7.

This is nonsense. The advantage didn't just disappear because Pittsburgh blew the first two games in spite of its advantage. Lidstrom for instance lost out on six days of recovery after his surgery, which affected him in games one, two and beyond. Pittsburgh blowing the first two games doesn't change that. Detroit missed Datsyuk in games three and four, but would have had him had the schedule not been changed. That doesn't change just because Pittsburgh blew its advantage in games one and two. Your attempts to wave away Detroit's disadvantage throughout the whole series fail because they are based on the idea that these advantage somehow just disappeared after game two.

yes i am having trouble comprehending such a ridiculous and stupid complaint which ended up hurting the Pens more than the Wings

the Pens won the 2009 cup fair and square, far more fair compared to say the 2002 cup the Wings won where they had unlimited funds to buy whatever player they wanted

but hey make up all the excuses you want as if the league would truly want to screw a precious Original 6 team, that Cup banner will still hang in the rafters in Pittsburgh

I still question whether you are even reading the posts you quote. Your first sentence is absurd. Either you really do not understand that "advantage" does not mean "winner" or you are actually going to complain that Pittsburgh was hurt by the NHL moving up the series. If it is the second, then please provide that explanation.

The other paragraphs make no sense and don't relate to what I said. Neither Detroit in 2002 or Pittsburgh in 2009 broke any rules, and no one is saying that Pittsburgh should lose the 2009 banner. You're trying to invent new arguments to fight, presumably because you consistently fail to respond to the actual argument you quote. Pittsburgh was not better than Detroit in 2009, but won the Stanley Cup primarily because Detroit had more significant injury issues. Despite your strawmen that doesn't mean that Pittsburgh loses a banner or cheated. Pittsburgh was given an advantage or two and eventually took advantage to pull out a tight series win.
 
Pittsburgh rightfully won the series because they finished four games with more goals than Detroit did.

It just irks me to no end that there were so many wonky aspects to it. The scheduling was weird as hell. I thought it at the time just as much as I do now. I wasn't happy about it even after the Wings went up 2-0. Still thought they got boned on that aspect.

That was also the moment I started hating Conan. NBC doesn't get a hard-on for promoting him on the Tonight Show just to can him six months later, they don't dick around with the start of their championship series.

And the Malkin thing struck me as a very NBA thing to do. You have a rule and because it pings a star player on the nationally televised stage, you take the rosiest interpretation of your review rule and ignore what the refs actually called. It was the same crap as the Detroit Lions against Dallas in 2014, when they threw the flag for defensive holding on the linebacker... then inexplicably picked it up and ignored Dez Bryant (another star) running on the field, helmet off to complain about the call.

It really just sticks in my craw because the game that Malkin should have missed by rule is the one he played Superman in and got the Pens a win.
 
Big Phil pretty much said it all. I agree 100%.

Seriously, some of you need to get over the Red Wings-colored view of hockey. The Wings were an aging team that lost a series against a younger, rising team. Guess what? It has happened many times before, and will happen again.

The fact that the Red Wings lost a series does not mean there was a conspiracy.

Please more posts about how the Red Wings lost the hockey games, and less posts about how the schedule was unfair to the poor, only-team-in-history-that-deserves-rest Red Wings.

MOD
 
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Your personal preference for when hockey is played has no bearing on what I said. The NHL moved the schedule ahead by six days, which benefited the healthier team, Pittsburgh. When you wanted to watch hockey has no relevance to that fact.



Horrible logic. Some teams in the past have overcome bad situations, so no one can cite bad situations. You must believe that no one can ever complain about bad reffing because teams have won in the past because of bad reffing.

I do agree that Pittsburgh benefiting from the NHL's decisions is not Pittsburgh's fault. The fact is that Pittsburgh benefited. Anyone saying that Pittsburgh called the shots would have a very difficult case to make.



This is nonsense. The advantage didn't just disappear because Pittsburgh blew the first two games in spite of its advantage. Lidstrom for instance lost out on six days of recovery after his surgery, which affected him in games one, two and beyond. Pittsburgh blowing the first two games doesn't change that. Detroit missed Datsyuk in games three and four, but would have had him had the schedule not been changed. That doesn't change just because Pittsburgh blew its advantage in games one and two. Your attempts to wave away Detroit's disadvantage throughout the whole series fail because they are based on the idea that these advantage somehow just disappeared after game two.



I still question whether you are even reading the posts you quote. Your first sentence is absurd. Either you really do not understand that "advantage" does not mean "winner" or you are actually going to complain that Pittsburgh was hurt by the NHL moving up the series. If it is the second, then please provide that explanation.

The other paragraphs make no sense and don't relate to what I said. Neither Detroit in 2002 or Pittsburgh in 2009 broke any rules, and no one is saying that Pittsburgh should lose the 2009 banner. You're trying to invent new arguments to fight, presumably because you consistently fail to respond to the actual argument you quote. Pittsburgh was not better than Detroit in 2009, but won the Stanley Cup primarily because Detroit had more significant injury issues. Despite your strawmen that doesn't mean that Pittsburgh loses a banner or cheated. Pittsburgh was given an advantage or two and eventually took advantage to pull out a tight series win.

my first sentence is absurd? well i guess i am responding to an absurd complaint with an absurd response

you act like the league went out of their way to help the Pens win either by scheduling back to back games or by not suspending Malkin, you even say the Wings were the better team

in other words you are claiming it wasn't fair, so clearly you think shady stuff was going on and the Pens weren't a legit champion
 
my first sentence is absurd? well i guess i am responding to an absurd complaint with an absurd response

you act like the league went out of their way to help the Pens win either by scheduling back to back games or by not suspending Malkin, you even say the Wings were the better team

in other words you are claiming it wasn't fair, so clearly you think shady stuff was going on and the Pens weren't a legit champion

Is this your attempt to confirm that you don't read the posts you quote? I have in this thread already expressed doubt that the NHL had the direct goal of helping Pittsburgh, and I said that Pittsburgh was a legitimate winner. The NHL's decisions, intentionally or not, did benefit Pittsburgh. I am quite sure that Detroit was the better team, which doesn't have any bearing on whether Pittsburgh is a legitimate Stanley Cup winner. Winning four games in the Stanley Cup finals makes you the winner unless there was some sort of cheating or something, which doesn't seem to be the case. This is what I said throughout the thread, though it seems that some cannot separate "the NHL's decisions benefited Pittsburgh" from "the NHL rigged the finals for Pittsburgh".
 
Why do you always assume they only had two choices? How about compromising and doing the right thing with something in the middle? Instead they went from one extreme to another and played the first 3 games of the finals quicker than ever before.

So what if Conan's first show was on the Monday? That only meant they couldn't play on Monday. It's definitely not as black and white as you're making it out to be.

They aren't going to go the extreme and wait 9 days before the final. You know this and I never understood why Ken Holland and Mike Babcock complained about this because they've been around long enough to know that if the two semi finals finish up quicker than expected that they will bump the start of the final. Find a time when we ever waited 9 days for the Cup final to start.

The one thing about that series that never should have happened was them rescinding Malkin's suspension. Regardless of the opinion on the rule itself, it was a rule on the books that the NHL decided to ignore... and then Malkin in game 3 assisted on three of the four Pittsburgh goals. Had the situation been reversed and Zetterberg went punching on Malkin's head at the end of a Wings' loss... there would be bloodcurdling screams coming out of Pittsburgh.

A lot of it has to do with the reputation of the player and the context. Malkin wasn't on the ice to purposely start a fight at the end of the game. Throw in the fact that he isn't a regular fighter (the odd time but that's it) and the league is able to overturn this. They'd have done the same thing if the shoe was on the other foot with Zetterberg.

Your personal preference for when hockey is played has no bearing on what I said. The NHL moved the schedule ahead by six days, which benefited the healthier team, Pittsburgh. When you wanted to watch hockey has no relevance to that fact.

No, but there are many other fans who think the way I do as well. The NHL knows this and they know that the deeper the series goes into June the better chance there are people outside and gone away enjoying the weather. So they aren't going to let it linger in June. This happens all of the time. Look at other series. Back in 1999 the Cup final started on June 8th. This was originally scheduled in case one of the series went 7 games, which it did. If both went 5 games the the semis are done on May 31st. Do you really think in reality they wait 8 days to start the Cup final? No, they probably bump it up to the 4th or something like that.

This is nonsense. The advantage didn't just disappear because Pittsburgh blew the first two games in spite of its advantage. Lidstrom for instance lost out on six days of recovery after his surgery, which affected him in games one, two and beyond. Pittsburgh blowing the first two games doesn't change that. Detroit missed Datsyuk in games three and four, but would have had him had the schedule not been changed. That doesn't change just because Pittsburgh blew its advantage in games one and two. Your attempts to wave away Detroit's disadvantage throughout the whole series fail because they are based on the idea that these advantage somehow just disappeared after game two.

It was an advantage for Pittsburgh...............initially. They didn't capitalize on it. So it then becomes nothing worth talking about. It is irrelevant.


Big Phil pretty much said it all. I agree 100%.

Seriously, some of you need to get over the Red Wings-colored view of hockey. The Wings were an aging team that lost a series against a younger, rising team. Guess what? It has happened many times before, and will happen again.

The fact that the Red Wings lost a series does not mean there was a conspiracy.

Please more posts about how the Red Wings lost the hockey games, and less posts about how the schedule was unfair to the poor, only-team-in-history-that-deserves-rest Red Wings.

MOD

Here is a good example of things that Detroit did to lose. Granted, Detroit is the best losing Cup finalist since................New Jersey in 2001 perhaps? So they made less errors than say some other normal team that lost. They kept it tight, but there were errors they made.

- The Red Wings were up 2-1 in the series and 2-1 in Game 4 with a power play when they let Staal score a shorthanded goal end to end. Osgood looked weak on the play, Rafalski let Staal walk around him like a rented mule and Lidstrom while on the other side, was also on the ice. Tie game. Then the floodgates opened up.
- They couldn't solve Fleury in Game 6 or 7 or capitalize on a late game breakaway in Game 6 or a juicy rebound in Game 7.
- They were the first team since the 1971 Hawks to lose Game 7 of the Cup final at home. The team before that was the 1945 Red Wings. Since then the 2011 Canucks have done it. All 4 teams were in a perfect position to close it out.
- They had power plays in the third period in Game 6 and 7 and couldn't capitalize on them
- Datsyuk had two assists in Game 5 but was pointless in the final two games. Sure he wasn't 100% but he didn't miss a shift either.


Keep in mind one other thing, they were the beneficiaries of a lopsided amount of power plays in Game 5. People forget this. No, it wouldn't have mattered I don't think as the Pens just simply played a lazy and sloppy game, but if there was any favouritism for the Pens you sure didn't see it that game.
 
They aren't going to go the extreme and wait 9 days before the final. You know this and I never understood why Ken Holland and Mike Babcock complained about this because they've been around long enough to know that if the two semi finals finish up quicker than expected that they will bump the start of the final. Find a time when we ever waited 9 days for the Cup final to start.

Holland and Babcock never demanded they wait 9 days and neither have I so I don't know what you're talking about. Did you even read my post that you replied to because what I was saying is that they should have met somewhere in the middle. If you're determined to go with back to back games and 3 in 4 days then a minimum of 4 days off between series makes sense. Not 2 because that made it the most rushed Finals in league history. A league that goes from one extreme to another is going to be questioned because that's clearly not good management of a situation because it's unreasonable.

I agree it makes sense to change the schedule to avoid that much of a delay but why did the NHL plan it that way in the first place? Their plan if neither Conference Final ended in a sweep was to start June 5th. That doesn't make a lot of sense either but that was the initial idea and they must have considered one series going 5 games.

What appeared to have happened is that the league was okay with starting on the 5th if neither series was a sweep. The Pens swept their series so sometime between then and when the Wings won in 5 the league changed their minds on the fly. The fact that Datsyuk, Lidstrom, and Ericsson were all out at that time and no one knew when they'd be available to play again made that decision's optics look poor and very suspicious to many. I see two possibilities here; the league was doing it's best to help the Pens out, or they were just inept and created a terrible schedule. Take your pick but either way it only benefitted Pittsburgh, whether they lost the first two games or not, because the Red Wings could have used the added rest and time off to prepare for the finals far far more than the Penguins did. EVERYONE following the NHL knew this.
 
No, but there are many other fans who think the way I do as well. The NHL knows this and they know that the deeper the series goes into June the better chance there are people outside and gone away enjoying the weather. So they aren't going to let it linger in June. This happens all of the time. Look at other series. Back in 1999 the Cup final started on June 8th. This was originally scheduled in case one of the series went 7 games, which it did. If both went 5 games the the semis are done on May 31st. Do you really think in reality they wait 8 days to start the Cup final? No, they probably bump it up to the 4th or something like that.

As I said I know why they moved it up. That has no bearing on the fact that Pittsburgh benefited from the change. It may even be a fair advantage, but it's an obvious advantage to the healthier team.

It was an advantage for Pittsburgh...............initially. They didn't capitalize on it. So it then becomes nothing worth talking about. It is irrelevant.

Your attempts to wave it away by repeating the same fallacy still fail. The advantage existed throughout the series. Losing six days of rest affects players beyond just the first two days of the series, as was already said but which you ignored. Lidstrom for instance lost six days of recovery time from surgery. Once he plays in those first two games recovery is obviously set back, which affected the rest of the series. Datsyuk didn't just miss games one and two but also games three and four. At the very least Datsyuk would have played in game 4 (Detroit loss) had the series not been moved up, possibly also game 3 (Detroit loss). There is no reason to think that the advantage disappeared after two days. It likely became less significant as the series went on at least.
 
I'm late here, but Crosby-Malkin-Staal is a very strong backbone. That's about as easy a forward group to win a Cup with that one could hope for with a salary cap.
 
It was an advantage for Pittsburgh...............initially. They didn't capitalize on it. So it then becomes nothing worth talking about. It is irrelevant.

Come off it Phil. This is being intellectually dishonest. Of course it was an advantage and that Pittsburgh wasnt able to take advantage of it early speaks more to their own lack of maturity, mental toughness & preparedness coming into the series. Took them awhile to get their act together, appreciate the fact they had the upper~hand, put the pedal to to the metal against a club that clearly wasnt firing on all pistons. Detroit got gypped plain & simple. The NHL is nothing if not wildly inconsistent, reactive & totally opportunistic. Look. You have a frickin schedule? Stick to it. Dont be changing things on the fly.
 
I'm late here, but Crosby-Malkin-Staal is a very strong backbone. That's about as easy a forward group to win a Cup with that one could hope for with a salary cap.


Because Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa and Lidstrom (on D) were just chopped liver? They were embarrassed a year earlier. Come on, Beefster. :D
 
So if the NHL had not released a tentative SCF schedule, which I assume they never do in most, if not all, other years, there is no *****ing about this, correct? A 2 or 3 day break was the norm for the start of the SCF.

Does this thread still exist if this was the case or would weak complaints of injuries been shouted a few days after the series ended?
 
So if the NHL had not released a tentative SCF schedule, which I assume they never do in most, if not all, other years, there is no *****ing about this, correct? A 2 or 3 day break was the norm for the start of the SCF.

Does this thread still exist if this was the case or would weak complaints of injuries been shouted a few days after the series ended?

And? They did. And Detroit got penalized for beating Chicago in 5 games instead of 6.

That, I think, was the biggest complaint out of Holland and Co. They beat a damn good (as they won the Cup in 2010) Chicago team in 5 games... but somehow would have been better off in terms of the Finals if they had lost another game.

The messed up series start isn't why the Wings lost or anything, but to act like it's par for the course or it wasn't ridiculous AF is so disingenuous. Pittsburgh had an amazing team in 2009 and they won a series in which they were down 3-2 having just been embarrassed to high hell in game 5. They earned the hell out of the win.

But to bring it back to your actual post... yes, it is worse because they released a tentative schedule and changed it on the fly to one that was nothing like any of the years surrounding it... Particularly for the reasons given (Conan O'Brien's debut, not wanting to compete with the NBA finals).

I hated it at the word go because it made the crown jewel of the NHL season and one of the highest profile playoff series in all of sports an afterthought in the minds of the network. Regardless of what it meant to the Wings for the series... Game 1 and Game 2 were slogfests between two tired teams when they didn't need to be.
 
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