How did the Communist states used to get away with those "amateur" teams?

[QnebO]

It wasn't really that amateur, in other sports athletes were training like crazy as hell and only doing their sport in 80's and so.. It was only NHL that decided not to come, didn't mean the Soviet Russia cheated.

 

[Theokritos]

It was only NHL that decided not to come

Only 1988-1994. Before 1988 the IOC did not allow NHL players in the Olympics.

 

[Thesensation19*]

The "Eastern Bloc" nations were able to use their best on best squad because they were hardly paid. They were paid like military officials in the army but instead trained daily for sports. In a way, they believed that sport was truly important to the country so these professions were regulated by the govt, in other words military workers. They were hardly paid officially at least and thus they were given amateur titles by the IIHF.

Everyone goes after the Soviets but like you said, the Czechs had it as well. Yugoslavia too but they werent elite hockey players.

Everyone also forgets that the Swedes and Fins and Nordic countries also used their best athletes. There pro leagues were a joke and many played on elite mens semi pro teams that were very very good. And then there juniors, who were all well scouted like today, were ready to play in the NHL didnt play pro so they too had a fair advantage.


Canada got pissed that their A players werent allowed to play due to being a professional so they created the Canada cup. In which the Soviets still did very well in.

 

[canuckster19]

Only 1988-1994. Before 1988 the IOC did not allow NHL players in the Olympics.

Wow I never knew this, you would think the NHL would have liked the opportunity to play in Calgary in 88, a rematch of sorts from the previous year.

Is there any documented reason as to why it took the NHL until 1998?

 

[SlingshotVv]

I don't see how it is playing the devil's advocate to note that the Soviet players did not have a professional hockey contract.

You make it sound like the IOC had a different set of rules for the Soviets, but that's just not the case. Any other full-time hockey player anywhere else without a pro contract was allowed as well.

Riiight. That's like saying an Apache pilot isn't a professional pilot. He's paid by the Army to be a soldier, therefore an amateur pilot. Or a sniper isn't a professional sniper, as his Army designation might be Light Infantry or some other such nonsense. Yet in rifle competitions Army snipers are considered professionals.

Soviet hockey players in the Soviet Army were professional hockey players. Their job was to play hockey. Makarov wasn't serving time with a mechanized group, or a rifle group and being deployed.

You're just being contrarian, for the sake of it.

 

[Pantokrator]

You're dealing with the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. If I am paid to fix refrigerators, and my bosses tell me to also play hockey - a lot of it, most of the time -and they pay me for being a refrigerator repairman, then I am not paid to be a hockey player.

The problem is in the definition of amateur. Technically, the Soviets were following the letter of the law. It is just that most people understood "professional" to imply that the title of your profession is what you were supposed to be doing most or all of the time. So someone who is paid to be in the Army should be expected to do Army stuff most of the time - drill, patrol, clean, etc. The Soviets did not care about the spirit of the law, they followed the letter of the law.

 

[SlingshotVv]

You're dealing with the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. If I am paid to fix refrigerators, and my bosses tell me to also play hockey - a lot of it, most of the time -and they pay me for being a refrigerator repairman, then I am not paid to be a hockey player.

The problem is in the definition of amateur. Technically, the Soviets were following the letter of the law. It is just that most people understood "professional" to imply that the title of your profession is what you were supposed to be doing most or all of the time. So someone who is paid to be in the Army should be expected to do Army stuff most of the time - drill, patrol, clean, etc. The Soviets did not care about the spirit of the law, they followed the letter of the law.

Untrue, if you're working for a corporation and part of the requirement is to play hockey it has to be in your human resource signed contract, therefore you're a professional player.

The skill level you're playing at doesn't matter. I can't believe how many people don't understand what the term professional means, or how it applies to the work-force.

 

[An Argument For]

Untrue, if you're working for a corporation and part of the requirement is to play hockey it has to be in your human resource signed contract, therefore you're a professional player.

The skill level you're playing at doesn't matter. I can't believe how many people don't understand what the term professional means, or how it applies to the work-force.

No, that's just legal loopholing.

Start a public company and try and record debt as investor equity. Everything in paper will state that it's equity but in reality it's debt. It acts like debt, it affects perfomance like debt, so you have to account for it as debt.

Also these guys were not working for a corporation. They were working for the government with an invested interest.

 

[SlingshotVv]

No, that's just legal loopholing.

Start a public company and try and record debt as investor equity. Everything in paper will state that it's equity but in reality it's debt. It acts like debt, it affects perfomance like debt, so you have to account for it as debt.

Also these guys were not working for a corporation. They were working for the government with an invested interest.

You're going to have to intersect this analogy with what we're talking about a little better. I've worked as a trader for Scotia Bank, and still have no idea how what your saying applies to the idea that having a contract that stipulates your job is to play a sport, does not make you a professional.

 

[An Argument For]

You're going to have to intersect this analogy with what we're talking about a little better. I've worked as a trader for Scotia Bank, and still have no idea how what your saying applies to the idea that having a contract that stipulates your job is to play a sport, does not make you a professional.

Simply put, just because you're not signed as a professional athlete doesn't mean you're not a professional athlete.

It's substance over form. These guys were drafted into the army but did not carry out jobs that would be considered military positions in substance. They were athletes acting under the guise of military.

My analogy was simply that in many cases companies take on debt that is actually structured as a form of equity but it works as debt. Legally you must account for it as debt because our laws are created with intent of providing an accurate depiction of the financial situation.. however, on paper it is isn’t debt. The same for the Soviet players. On paper they’re not hockey players but in substance they are.

 

[SlingshotVv]

Simply put, just because you're not signed as a professional athlete doesn't mean you're not a professional athlete.

It's substance over form. These guys were drafted into the army but did not carry out jobs that would be considered military positions in substance. They were athletes acting under the guise of military.

My analogy was simply that in many cases companies take on debt that is actually structured as a form of equity but it works as debt. Legally you must account for it as debt because our laws are created with intent of providing an accurate depiction of the financial situation.. however, on paper it is isn’t debt. The same for the Soviet players. On paper they’re not hockey players but in substance they are.

But on paper they WERE hockey players. What I think people fail to understand, is that the Soviet military didn't just set up some little sham squad and mislabel them. They had to have duty station, that houses, and trains the players. That requires tons of infrastructure. If a player was injured in a game and could not carry out any further assignments, how were they handled? What was the designation for the training staffs and coaches? If there was a death during a game, did they get military honors? Was it a pass-time, or job?

The Soviet Union was a massive bureaucratic machine, even when it didn't absolutely want to be. Do you really believe that the military positions weren't defined? Do you think Makarov could've stayed at his duty station if he didn't feel like participating in hockey anymore? Or do you think they were contractually bound to be playing the sport, and training to play, and that their salary was alotted to such performance?

You guys are being too cute, and huge governemnt organs don't function that way. These guys were professional soldiers where their main duty is to play hockey. They were professionals. The same as an Apache pilot is a professional, or an active Army sniper can't enter amateur competitions.

 

[Pantokrator]

But on paper they WERE hockey players. What I think people fail to understand, is that the Soviet military didn't just set up some little sham squad and mislabel them. They had to have duty station, that houses, and trains the players. That requires tons of infrastructure. If a player was injured in a game and could not carry out any further assignments, how were they handled? What was the designation for the training staffs and coaches? If there was a death during a game, did they get military honors? Was it a pass-time, or job?

The Soviet Union was a massive bureaucratic machine, even when it didn't absolutely want to be. Do you really believe that the military positions weren't defined? Do you think Makarov could've stayed at his duty station if he didn't feel like participating in hockey anymore? Or do you think they were contractually bound to be playing the sport, and training to play, and that their salary was alotted to such performance?

You guys are being too cute, and huge governemnt organs don't function that way. These guys were professional soldiers where their main duty is to play hockey. They were professionals. The same as an Apache pilot is a professional, or an active Army sniper can't enter amateur competitions.

So then you're saying that they were professional hockey players, or that they SHOULD have been considered professional hockey players? I'm just making sure I understand. Are you saying that the IOC was wrong to say they weren't professional? And if so, how did the Soviets get around it? Because it seems to me (I have not researched this, it just seems then) that the IOC viewed it as if they were paid to be in the Army, but just so happened to play hockey. They certainly didn't act as if they were being paid to play hockey. I hope all that makes sense.

 

[lamini]

But on paper they WERE hockey players.

Actualy I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a word about playing hockey in their official contract. It wasn't that strange to have contract to do one thing but be expected to do something absolutely different.

 

[KINGS17]

It's simple, the countries in the free world let them.

If the USA, Canada, etc. refused to play it wouldn't have happened.

 

[An Argument For]

It's simple, the countries in the free world let them.

If the USA, Canada, etc. refused to play it wouldn't have happened.

Except for that decade when Canada did refuse to play...

But other than that.

 

[QnebO]

You're dealing with the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. If I am paid to fix refrigerators, and my bosses tell me to also play hockey - a lot of it, most of the time -and they pay me for being a refrigerator repairman, then I am not paid to be a hockey player.

The problem is in the definition of amateur. Technically, the Soviets were following the letter of the law. It is just that most people understood "professional" to imply that the title of your profession is what you were supposed to be doing most or all of the time. So someone who is paid to be in the Army should be expected to do Army stuff most of the time - drill, patrol, clean, etc. The Soviets did not care about the spirit of the law, they followed the letter of the law.

In some cases, the court can see that kind of action guilty, but aguess that's what armies like to do. When I were serving, Finland was already signed the Ottawa treaty that bans land mines. We were taught how to to set up landmi... no, we didint set up land mines, they were using another name on them, and therefore, they "weren't landmines".

 

[QnebO]

Or maybe I was kidding.. who knows.. the point is, I think some times some parties do like that, and it really isn't following the rules if you ask me.

 

[Theokritos]

Wow I never knew this, you would think the NHL would have liked the opportunity to play in Calgary in 88, a rematch of sorts from the previous year.

Is there any documented reason as to why it took the NHL until 1998?

I'm not aware of all the details, but the schedule break and its lenght was obviously a major issue for many NHL owners. It took prolonged negotiations until the NHL, IIHF and IOC finally reached an agreement in autumn 1995 ("Budapest Accord") which included the remake of the Canada Cup as "World Cup" and Olympic participation by the NHL.

 

[Theokritos]

Or maybe I was kidding.. who knows

Two minutes after the last post. What happened in the meantime, did you get a call from the Finnish military intelligence service?

 

[Fantomas]

"Shamateurs," they used to be called in North America.

Those were the Soviet/Czech teams who did nothing but play hockey all year and had "army jobs" that they didn't have to attend. This somehow made them "amateurs" and permitted them to compete against (and usually destroy) real amateur players from Canada, USA, Sweden, and Finland in the Olympics.

Yet when Canada challenged the best Soviet pros in 1972 and at the Canada Cups, the same guys showed up!

How was this cheating allowed to proceed for so many years by the IOC and IIHF? As I understand it, using inelligable players (ie. pros in an ameteur event) leads to disqualification, and every Soviet Olympic team from 1954 to at least 1984 was inelligable.

I'm inclined to think that today's Russian struggles at the elite level are the Karma Gods exacting revenge for all those phony Olympic wins of the past.

How about knowing what you're talking about next time before you post?

 

[Fantomas]

No, they were paid to be police or army officers.

Had they been paid to train and play, that would have made them ineligible.

The Soviet players barely made anything and couldn't support their families. Tretiak had to retire at 31 to take care of his family.

Yeah, they were amateurs.

 

[Canuckistani]

The Soviet players barely made anything and couldn't support their families. Tretiak had to retire at 31 to take care of his family.

Yeah, they were amateurs.

Totally irrelevant. You don't cease to be an professional if the pay is low.

What were they being paid to do if not play hockey? And don't pretend it was for training with their army units unless by "army unit" you're referring to a hockey team.

 

[Hoser]

The Soviet players barely made anything and couldn't support their families.

Yeah, they were amateurs.

They didn't "barely make anything" because they were amateurs: they "barely made anything" because they were Soviets.

 

[jekoh]

Riiight. That's like saying an Apache pilot isn't a professional pilot. He's paid by the Army to be a soldier, therefore an amateur pilot. Or a sniper isn't a professional sniper, as his Army designation might be Light Infantry or some other such nonsense. Yet in rifle competitions Army snipers are considered professionals.

No it's not. An army pilot is paid to be a pilot.

Hockey players were not paid to be hockey players. There were just left with a lot of time to practice their sport, much like NCAA players with an athletic scholarship who were allowed as well.

Untrue, if you're working for a corporation and part of the requirement is to play hockey it has to be in your human resource signed contract, therefore you're a professional player.

Where in Soviet players' contracts did it say their requirement was to play hockey? Please do tell us.

 

[QnebO]

Where in Soviet players' contracts did it say their requirement was to play hockey? Please do tell us.

You can't be that blind? Did you know they practiced all the time as a team and did nothing but played hockey? Of course their contracts didin't have hockey player, they were cheating the rules, that's the whole point.