How did the Communist states used to get away with those "amateur" teams?

[Canuckistani]

"Shamateurs," they used to be called in North America.

Those were the Soviet/Czech teams who did nothing but play hockey all year and had "army jobs" that they didn't have to attend. This somehow made them "amateurs" and permitted them to compete against (and usually destroy) real amateur players from Canada, USA, Sweden, and Finland in the Olympics.

Yet when Canada challenged the best Soviet pros in 1972 and at the Canada Cups, the same guys showed up!

How was this cheating allowed to proceed for so many years by the IOC and IIHF? As I understand it, using inelligable players (ie. pros in an ameteur event) leads to disqualification, and every Soviet Olympic team from 1954 to at least 1984 was inelligable.

I'm inclined to think that today's Russian struggles at the elite level are the Karma Gods exacting revenge for all those phony Olympic wins of the past.

Click to read more...

 

[jekoh]

Those were the Soviet/Czech teams who did nothing but play hockey all year and had "army jobs" that they didn't have to attend. This somehow made them "amateurs" and permitted them to compete against (and usually destroy) real amateur players from Canada, USA, Sweden, and Finland in the Olympics.

Yet when Canada challenged the best Soviet pros in 1972 and at the Canada Cups, the same guys showed up!

Canada did not challenge the best Soviet pros, they challenged the best Soviets.

How was this cheating allowed to proceed for so many years by the IOC and IIHF? As I understand it, using inelligable players (ie. pros in an ameteur event) leads to disqualification, and every Soviet Olympic team from 1954 to at least 1984 was inelligable.

The Soviet players were not paid to play hockey, so they were eligible.

Training 24/7 does not make you a pro, getting paid to train does.

It could be argued that college players and Team Canada players were not exactly amateurs either.

 

[Canuckistani]

Training 24/7 does not make you a pro, getting paid to train does.

They were paid to train, and play. All their time was detoved to hockey while their supposed "army jobs" somehow didn't require attention.

They were pros, and everyone knew it at the time.

 

[jekoh]

They were paid to train, and play. All their time was detoved to hockey while their supposed "army jobs" somehow didn't require attention.

They were pros, and everyone knew it at the time.

No, they were paid to be police or army officers.

Had they been paid to train and play, that would have made them ineligible.

 

[nikonsniper*]

Like everything that happens with them over there, they ignored the spirit of the rules.

 

[Theokritos]

As long as you were not openly professional the IOC usually didn't have much leverage against you, so for all practical purposes "shamateurism" was more or less ignored, whether it concerned Soviet "state amateurs" or Swedish hockey players or NCAA beneficiaries or Canadian National Team members. Unfortunately for Canada they were the one hockey nation with openly professional leagues & openly professional players - which made their best players ineligible, while the best players of other countries remained eligible for a long time as they were amateurs on paper. Hence the unfair disadvantage Canada was put at in international hockey.

 

[Canuckistani]

No, they were paid to be police or army officers.

Had they been paid to train and play, that would have made them ineligible.

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you seriously accept that Soviet players were soldiers who just played some amateur hockey on the side?

 

[An Argument For]

As long as you were not openly professional the IOC usually didn't have much leverage against you, so for all practical purposes "shamateurism" was more or less ignored, whether it concerned Soviet "state amateurs" or Swedish hockey players or NCAA beneficiaries or Canadian National Team members. Unfortunately for Canada they were the one hockey nation with openly professional leagues & openly professional players - which made their best players ineligible, while the best players of other countries remained eligible for a long time as they were amateurs on paper. Hence the unfair disadvantage Canada was put at in international hockey.

Let's not forget that for a little while.. professional players were allowed to play. As long as they weren't professional NHL players. Any other league was fine.. just not the NHL. If that isn't trying to take the piss out of Canada I don't know what is.

 

[Theokritos]

Let's not forget that for a little while.. professional players were allowed to play. As long as they weren't professional NHL players. Any other league was fine.. just not the NHL. If that isn't trying to take the piss out of Canada I don't know what is.

You need to realize that the IIHF had to deal with the Canadian demand to use professionals on one side and with the stance of the IOC (which was: "no pros allowed, and those who play against pros aren't allowed either") on the other side. So what the IIHF tried to do was to water down the ban by allowing a couple of pros from the minor leagues to play in the 1969 World Championship. They thought the IOC would swallow that. Unfortunately the IOC was having none of it and swiftly issued an ultimatum: No pros in the WChs or else everybody who plays there becomes ineligible for the Olympic Games.

 

[jekoh]

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you seriously accept that Soviet players were soldiers who just played some amateur hockey on the side?

I don't see how it is playing the devil's advocate to note that the Soviet players did not have a professional hockey contract.

You make it sound like the IOC had a different set of rules for the Soviets, but that's just not the case. Any other full-time hockey player anywhere else without a pro contract was allowed as well.

 

[An Argument For]

I don't see how it is playing the devil's advocate to note that the Soviet players did not have a professional hockey contract.

You make it sound like the IOC had a different set of rules for the Soviets, but that's just not the case. Any other full-time hockey player anywhere else without a pro contract was allowed as well.

Just because they didn't have a "professional hockey contract" doesn't mean they weren't professional players.

It's very much a case of substance over form. You can call something equity all you want but if it acts like debt, and trades like debt, you better will account for it as debt.

Capesh?

 

[saskganesh]

Are you playing devil's advocate or do you seriously accept that Soviet players were soldiers who just played some amateur hockey on the side?

You may not like it, but that was essentially the IOC line. It doesn't make Canuckistani a troll.

Yes, yes, it was unfair. We can all agree. And it's history now.

Now some people want NHL pros to leave the Olympics. There must be a grievance shortage or something.

 

[lamini]

Well, one thing is to know someone is cheating and another to prove it. You have refrigerator repairman that plays hockey in his free time. It's hard to prove wheather his amateur that plays for fun or professional

 

[jekoh]

Just because they didn't have a "professional hockey contract" doesn't mean they weren't professional players.

Yes in the eyes of the IOC it certainly did.

 

[Zine]

Why is this limited to the Communist block?

The Swedes were 'amateurs' up until the formation of the Elitserien in 1975.

 

[Canuckistani]

Well, one thing is to know someone is cheating and another to prove it. You have refrigerator repairman that plays hockey in his free time. It's hard to prove wheather his amateur that plays for fun or professional

But suppose this refrigerator repairman never repaired refrigerators, and instead spent all his time playing hockey as part of his nation's state-run elite league, and state-run national team. And the whole time the state kept depositing money into his account and paying his bills.

When you don't attend your "real" job and still get paid, it probably isn't your real job.

 

[lamini]

But suppose this refrigerator repairman never repaired refrigerators, and instead spent all his time playing hockey as part of his nation's state-run elite league, and state-run national team. And the whole time the state kept depositing money into his account and paying his bills.

When you don't attend your "real" job and still get paid, it probably isn't your real job.

Yea, but how you prove that he never repaired single refrigerator...the company where he works can provide documents about thousands refrigerators he repaired (they would be false, but it's hard to prove it)

Edit: also, this league where he plays isn't state-run (at least not officially), neither is the national team - both are run by national hockey association (ofcourse real decisions are made elsewhere)

 

[Canuckistani]

Yea, but how you prove that he never repaired single refrigerator...the company where he works can provide documents about thousands refrigerators he repaired (they would be false, but it's hard to prove it)

Sure it's hard to prove the truth when dealing with a system willing to fabricate jobs for their professional players, as the Soviets were. But everyone at the IOC and IIHF knew the truth and just played dumb.

In no other country do "army officers" find the time to play a fully domestic league hockey schedule, as well as several international events, plus daily practice time.

You almost have to respect the Soviets for having the gall to present such a cover story.

 

[kdfsjljklgjfg]

Sure it's hard to prove the truth when dealing with a system willing to fabricate jobs for their professional players, as the Soviets were. But everyone at the IOC and IIHF knew the truth and just played dumb.

In no other country do "army officers" find the time to play a fully domestic league hockey schedule, as well as several international events, plus daily practice time.

You almost have to respect the Soviets for having the gall to present such a cover story.

So what do you propose? They accuse the Soviet Union of lying and ban them from attending the games? What makes you think that hurling such accusations (though everyone knows they're true) would have any kind of beneficial effect?

 

[lamini]

In no other country do "army officers" find the time to play a fully domestic league hockey schedule, as well as several international events, plus daily practice time.

Šebrle, first man to get over 9000 points in decathlon is army officer, Železny - 3 time olympic winner and recordholder in jawelin throwing is army officer...many athletes even now are in army

 

[Xokkeu]

Sure it's hard to prove the truth when dealing with a system willing to fabricate jobs for their professional players, as the Soviets were. But everyone at the IOC and IIHF knew the truth and just played dumb.

In no other country do "army officers" find the time to play a fully domestic league hockey schedule, as well as several international events, plus daily practice time.

You almost have to respect the Soviets for having the gall to present such a cover story.

If the Canadians and NHL cared enough they could have set up the same thing. Bobby Orr getting paid to clean the arena on his off days, just playing hockey for fun. Oh the arena is dirty, darn...

They didn't do it because they didn't really care enough.

 

[Frank the Tank]

So what do you propose? They accuse the Soviet Union of lying and ban them from attending the games? What makes you think that hurling such accusations (though everyone knows they're true) would have any kind of beneficial effect?

Because IIHF president Bunny Ahearne had no problem repeatedly hurling such accusations at Canadian players.

The bias the IIHF demonstrated towards European based teams for decades is one of the main reasons there exists such a disconnect between the IIHF and NHL to this day.

If the Canadians and NHL cared enough they could have set up the same thing. Bobby Orr getting paid to clean the arena on his off days, just playing hockey for fun. Oh the arena is dirty, darn...

They didn't do it because they didn't really care enough.

Canada did care about this issue and had numerous run-ins with the IIHF regarding player eligibility. There are examples of former pro players looking represent Canada and the IIHF refused to allow them to play in IIHF tournaments because of organizational bias against North American teams.

 

[Canuckistani]

So what do you propose? They accuse the Soviet Union of lying and ban them from attending the games? What makes you think that hurling such accusations (though everyone knows they're true) would have any kind of beneficial effect?

Yes, if the IOC was being honest they would have banned the Soviet pros from amateur events.

It's a little late for that now, obviously, and I'm not calling for the IIHF/IOC to strip away the old Soviet golds. But I can't help but marvel at how such dishonesty was ever allowed to stand in the first place.

No one in their right mind honestly thought that those players were being paid to be in the Soviet Army and that their hockey playing was being done in their spare time after their normal duties at the artillery range were complete.

 

[Phil Parent]

Well, one thing is to know someone is cheating and another to prove it. You have refrigerator repairman that plays hockey in his free time. It's hard to prove wheather his amateur that plays for fun or professional

Vladimir Dzurilla! Fridge repairman, fat, unathletic, best goalie in Czechoslovakia before Hasek!

And yes, he really repaired fridges for a living!

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Vladimir Dzurilla! Fridge repairman, fat, unathletic, best goalie in Czechoslovakia before Hasek!

And yes, he really repaired fridges for a living!

Yep. Also, he originally played for a smaller team in Slovakia's capital before he went to Slovan Bratislava in exchange for 20 hockey sticks and 20 pucks.