How did Peter Stastny separate himself so much from Marian and Anton when that wasn't the case in the Czechoslovakian league?

[Felidae]

Didn't want to derail the other thread with this question, but I'm legitimately curious. If you look at how they did in the Czechoslovakian league, Marian and Anton were just as productive as Peter, and that wasn't the case when they arrived in the NHL. They all played on the same team too, which makes it all the more interesting.

Let's look at Marian Stastny's production before Anton and Peter joined the team (or before the stats were available for them)

In 74-75, he was 21 years old. 63 points, 36 goals in 43 games. He was 3rd in the league in both goals and points.

75-76, Peter Stastny's stats are available as a 19 year old. Marian and Peter both finish the season with 28 points.


In 76-77, Marian was only 2 points behind Stastny. (48 to 50). Basically the same amount of games played, with Marian scoring 4 more goals.


In 77-78, Marian leads the team in points with 56, Peter is only 3 points behind. Anton enters the picture as an 18 year old with a solid 36 point campaign. They are all within 1 or two games of each other.



78-79, Marian has a 19 point lead over Peter with 74 points. Anton Stastny has 51 points, only 4 behind Peter despite being 3 years younger.

And in 79-80 (their final season), Anton leads the team in points with 56, 6 ahead of Peter. Marian only plays 22 games but actually leads the team in PPG. (A 65 point pace had he played the same amount of games)

So Marian's 21 and 25 year old seasons in the czechoslovakian league are the best between the 3 players. Yes, Peter left at 23 years old, but his 21 and 22 year old seasons don't come close to Marian's 21 year old season.

And Anton's trajectory seemed to be better than Peter's. Outproducing Peter's 19 year old season by 51 to 28. Even Anton's 18 year old season was more productive (36 to 28). Then in their final season together, 20 year old Anton eventually outproduces both Peter and Marian.

Then they all enter the NHL, and the rest is history.. neither Anton nor Marian even reach the 100 point mark in the NHL, Peter goes on to have 7 100 point seasons (Though Marian likely would have in his 29 year old season, finished 9th in PPG). Marian at least has the excuse of being older and dealing with some injuries at the time, though Peter still managed 5th and 6th place point finishes at 29 and 31..

So what gives? What was it that made Peter separate himself so much from Anton and Marian production wise when that wasn't really the case in the czechoslovakian league?

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[VanIslander]

Irbe has a similar perception problem...

Irbe was honoured as the best goalkeeper of the 1990 tournament. He refused to play for the Soviet Union in 1991 because Latvia had proclaimed independence from the Soviet Union on 4 May 1990 and the Soviet government attempted to use military force in January 1991 to stop Latvia's independence. When the Moscow government sent tanks rolling to Riga, Irbe was among those who took to the streets and put up barriers to protect buildings, radio stations, TV towers, and historical landmarks.

 

[JackSlater]

Wouldn't hurt that Peter was the biggest of the brothers. Talent gaps also don't always become apparent until players go up to a higher level. It's not provable but I'm confident that various NHLers through history that people consider comparable would have a sizable gap if there were a tougher league for them to go to, sort of like how there are junior scoring stars that people just know won't amount to much once the NHL hits.

Peter was also selected as Czechoslovakian player of the year in 1980 even though Anton comfortably outscored him (Marian missed half the year but had much better points per game) but I assume some of that is Peter having a better Olympic tournament. Even then however Novy outscored Peter both in the league and at the Olympics.

 

[Felidae]

Wouldn't hurt that Peter was the biggest of the brothers. Talent gaps also don't always become apparent until players go up to a higher level. It's not provable but I'm confident that various NHLers through history that people consider comparable would have a sizable gap if there were a tougher league for them to go to, sort of like how there are junior scoring stars that people just know won't amount to much once the NHL hits.

Peter was also selected as Czechoslovakian player of the year in 1980 even though Anton comfortably outscored him (Marian missed half the year but had much better points per game) but I assume some of that is Peter having a better Olympic tournament. Even then however Novy outscored Peter both in the league and at the Olympics.

Hmm..

It does make sense, but I think i'd be more convinced if they were 18-19 year olds and not fully developed as players. (Marian and Peter)

Anton was just entering his prime, and Marian and Peter were already in theirs when they entered the NHL. Granted, Marian was 29 years old, so he was on the backend of his.

Interestingly, Marian did not play hockey in 1980-81. I'm not sure why, but that couldn't have helped his transition entering a completely new league.

Im his 2nd year however, he went from 25th in PPG to 9th in PPG, so maybe he shook off the rust and acclimated. Unfortunately, he also missed 22 games that season, so I wonder if that injury contributed to him not coming close to a PPG ever again, as he would continue to miss 14 and 32 games the following 2 seasons.

Another part of the puzzle as you said, is that peter was heavier and taller than the others.

Peter had 2 inches and 5 pounds on Marian, and an inch and 12 pounds on Anton.

A noticeable amount for sure, but not overly so. I'm not sure I entirely buy that explanation. Or at least, not to the degree that it would fully explain the gaps in their production at the NHL level.

 

[MadLuke]

Carbonneau said Peter was the player he hated playing against the most, Gretzky-Lemieux were better with more vision and harder in a way, but playing against Peter physically hurt, he had quite the mean streak and incredibly strong.

There could be more nhl style and the bigger, but Marian entered the league the age Anton was out of it, his numbers in Czech league had already going down and took an off year ?

How big of a difference there was could be exaggerated by him being post his peak by the time he enters the nhl.

 

[Overrated]

It was just Anton who underwhelmed.

Marian did not play for a year before defecting yet when he came back out of retirement in his first two NHL seasons which happened from 28 to 30 so already post peak he was 15th in PPG. I think that's quite impressive. Old Marian wasn't that much worse than Kurri, Messier or Nilsson. It shows how weak the forwards were back then. It's obvious Makarov Krutov or the KPM troika in the 1970s would dominate the NHL.

 

[blogofmike]

It was just Anton who underwhelmed.

Marian did not play for a year before defecting yet when he came back out of retirement in his first two NHL seasons which happened from 28 to 30 so already post peak he was 15th in PPG. I think that's quite impressive. Old Marian wasn't that much worse than Kurri, Messier or Nilsson. It shows how weak the forwards were back then. It's obvious Makarov Krutov or the KPM troika in the 1970s would dominate the NHL.

Usage matters too.

Kurri and Messier are significantly better even strength scorers, but they scored fewer PP points. Edmonton had the best PP% in the league, but there weren't enough spots for Kurri and Messier and Anderson.

While all 3 were better even strength scorers, and they played more games, none equaled the PP production of Marian Stastny.

The same effect can be observed within the Nordiques, as Marian outscored Michel Goulet. Goulet was easily a superior ES scorer, but because the Stastny brothers were the main PP unit, Goulet scores fewer points overall.

Peter was the superstar player. He was the catalyst, the one who scored the most, and the one who kept scoring even after 1983. He adjusted very well to the NHL for an Eastern Bloc player.

Look at Makarov. The reigning Soviet MVP walks into the Hakan Loob spot on the defending Stanley Cup champions - and he's just good. Makarov is statistically indistinguishable from the similarly aged Joe Mullen who played for the same team.

 

[The Panther]

I like the point (above) that a harder League (also more physical grind and longer schedule) means that the superior player will often emerge and distinguish himself. I think this is the case with Peter Stastny in the NHL, as compared to his brothers or other Czech stars in Europe.

It's a bit like how Pat Lafontaine outscored Mario Lemieux in uhe QMJHL and easily out-performed him during each's first 20-or-so NHL games. Then, the reality of the NHL caught up..,

 

[Overrated]

Usage matters too.

Kurri and Messier are significantly better even strength scorers, but they scored fewer PP points. Edmonton had the best PP% in the league, but there weren't enough spots for Kurri and Messier and Anderson.

While all 3 were better even strength scorers, and they played more games, none equaled the PP production of Marian Stastny.

The same effect can be observed within the Nordiques, as Marian outscored Michel Goulet. Goulet was easily a superior ES scorer, but because the Stastny brothers were the main PP unit, Goulet scores fewer points overall.

Sure I am not arguing for Marian being better than them but he was still competitive even after not playing for a year and not being in his prime anymore.

Peter was the superstar player. He was the catalyst, the one who scored the most, and the one who kept scoring even after 1983. He adjusted very well to the NHL for an Eastern Bloc player.

Look at Makarov. The reigning Soviet MVP walks into the Hakan Loob spot on the defending Stanley Cup champions - and he's just good. Makarov is statistically indistinguishable from the similarly aged Joe Mullen who played for the same team.

The green liners failed due to how dumb the coaches were and how they couldn't utilize them. Bowman put together a significantly inferior unit in 95 and they became arguably the best line in the world overnight. Makarov was the best Russian player ever.

 

[Overrated]

I like the point (above) that a harder League (also more physical grind and longer schedule) means that the superior player will often emerge and distinguish himself. I think this is the case with Peter Stastny in the NHL, as compared to his brothers or other Czech stars in Europe.

It's a bit like how Pat Lafontaine outscored Mario Lemieux in uhe QMJHL and easily out-performed him during each's first 20-or-so NHL games. Then, the reality of the NHL caught up..,

He didn't do too well internationally either though at least numbers wise unlike someone like Martinec.

 

[Felidae]

For those who watched the 3 at the NHL level (I assume no one here watched them in the czechoslovakian league..)

We know the stats, but what were the traits that Peter Stastny had over Marian and Anton other than being physically stronger?

On the other hand, were there any skills Marian and Anton had over Peter?

Lastly, does anyone what the czechoslovakian league was like at the time? (And the quality of it)

As others have said, perhaps it really was just Peter Stastny being more physically dominant and fit that allowed him to endure the 82 season grind. They only played 50+ games in their Czechoslovakian league after all

 

[Crosby2010]

Peter was 24 when he entered the NHL. He was obviously better career wise than the other two but I am just thinking that sometimes this is when a player really hits his stride. You look at NHL history and you often see this as the age where a player plays some of the best hockey of his life. That could have been what separated them at that point.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Peter in the nhl played with Michel Goulet and that helped. Also, Peter stayed healthy

Anton was a pt per game player but went back to Europe at 29. Marian got injured if I am not mistaken

 

[The Panther]

He didn't do too well internationally either though at least numbers wise unlike someone like Martinec.

I dunno, seems not bad...?

At the Olympics, he had 23 points in 14 games.

At the World Championships (if I'm reading this correctly), 35 points in 37 games. Most of those games are before his prime years, too.

His Canada Cup numbers are kinda underwhelming, but I'm not sure how strong the 1976 Czech team was, and in 1984 he played for Canada. Does anyone who watched Canada Cup '84 remember his deployment? Was he on, like, the fourth line or something?

 

[Overrated]

For those who watched the 3 at the NHL level (I assume no one here watched them in the czechoslovakian league..)

We know the stats, but what were the traits that Peter Stastny had over Marian and Anton other than being physically stronger?

On the other hand, were there any skills Marian and Anton had over Peter?

Lastly, does anyone what the czechoslovakian league was like at the time? (And the quality of it)

As others have said, perhaps it really was just Peter Stastny being more physically dominant and fit that allowed him to endure the 82 season grind. They only played 50+ games in their Czechoslovakian league after all

In 78/79 they won the league and thus qualified for the European Cup 79/80. In 79/80 their league performance wasn't as strong but they were still 3rd.

Well they played CSKA in the final group of 79/80. Interestingly the game has survived:



It was of course an absolute massacre 11:1. The Czech league was a minor league.

Poldi Kladno qualified for the next year's tournament. Again their season was somewhat underwhelming and they didn't win and ended up third again.

They faced CSKA in the final group too. 12:2 for CSKA. It got much closer some of the other years but the Czech champion was never able to beat CSKA.

81/82 CSKA Moscow 4:3 TJ Vitkovice
82/83 CSKA Moscow 3:1 Dukla Jihlava
83/84 CSKA Moscow 4:3 Dukla Jihlava
84/85 CSKA Moscow 6:4 Dukla Jihlava
85/86 CSKA Moscow 9:3 Dukla Jihlava
86/87 CSKA Moscow 9:0 TJ VSZ Kosice
87/88 CSKA Moscow 2:1 Tesla Pardubice
88/89 CSKA Moscow 6:2 TJ VSZ Kosice

 

[Overrated]

I dunno, seems not bad...?

At the Olympics, he had 23 points in 14 games.

Not terrible but way worse than the top Soviet forwards of the late 1970s. At the Olympics he scored 5 points against France and Italy in 94 and in 1980 he got 13 out of his 14 points against Norway, Romania, West Germany & the amateur Canadian team. In WC PPG he was 22nd. If I only count people who played multiple WCs from 76 to 79 he was 15th.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/league/wc/stats/all-time?from=1975-1976&to=1978-1979&sort=ppg

 

[Overrated]

A good tough game featuring Marian and Peter Stastny where he scored against the USSR