How Did Colorado Pass Edmonton?

[ORLY]

Duchene=Hall>>Landy>>RNH=O'Reilly>>Yak.

It's just math guys.

 

[DarioinDenver]

Always be drafting centers. If there's any doubt, grab the centerman. Avs built up the middle. Edmonton has put their picks and salary cap in to wings. (See Toronto and Calgary). Hall is a monster, he's a fantastic winger. But they could have still used Seguin to play that center position and built up the middle of their lineup.

 

[klozge]

Duchene=Hall>>Landy>>RNH=O'Reilly>>Yak.

It's just math guys.

And then there's also this MacKinnon kid.

Edit: I also think you're underrating RNH and especially O'Reilly.

 

[cgf]

Always be drafting centers. If there's any doubt, grab the centerman. Avs built up the middle. Edmonton has put their picks and salary cap in to wings. (See Toronto and Calgary). Hall is a monster, he's a fantastic winger. But they could have still used Seguin to play that center position and built up the middle of their lineup.

So Chicago did it wrong? And Edmonton have drafted more high end centers than Chicago did.

Drafting at the top was the only thing they did right, unfortunately management was so proud of itself for not screwing up it's top picks that it became terrified of challenging them or making a necessary trade.

 

[KCC]

Previous GM Tambellini for Edmonton never did jack all when he had the reigns. The team drafted and he just sat on his ass and never surrounded the kids with the help you need. He basically made them do everything themselves and it just doesn't work that way.

The current Gm MacTavish has done a lot since last year. He's actually trying to do what should have been done at the very start of the rebuild. Acknowledging the weakness, trying to plug the holes and surround the kids with help.

The coach is the only question mark, but I don't believe last year was a good measuring stick. Long story short with so many coaches turning over every year, every year the team has to learn from scratch. Combine that with not bringing in any help, most teams would be pretty darn bad as well. lol. This year the majority of the team knows the coach, knows the system and if they can actually get some friggin goaltending, this year should be their biggest jump up the standings since the rebuild. Won't be enough to get into the playoffs in the tough West, but there may finally be some light at the end of this dark, depressing 8 year tunnel. =/

 

[RTN]

So Chicago did it wrong? And Edmonton have drafted more high end centers than Chicago did.

Drafting at the top was the only thing they did right, unfortunately management was so proud of itself for not screwing up it's top picks that it became terrified of challenging them or making a necessary trade.

Well, Chicago did have a pretty good centre in Toews and a good group of D-men (Keith/Seabrook/Campbell/Buf) - which both count for building up the middle. I believe Sharp has the ability to play centre, but I don't follow them enough to know how often he does.

 

[DarioinDenver]

So Chicago did it wrong? And Edmonton have drafted more high end centers than Chicago did.

Drafting at the top was the only thing they did right, unfortunately management was so proud of itself for not screwing up it's top picks that it became terrified of challenging them or making a necessary trade.

Chicago drafted who is arguably the greatest center in the entire NHL. I'd say they did it right. They continue to pad their center depth by acquiring veteran depth up the middle just about every offseason, including this year with Richrdson. Centers win cups.

 

[AvsGuy]

It's no where near that simple. Yes we got a more diverse skillset with Landy in there, but those three players are far from the only reason things went so differently for us.

Beyond the trades, the Avs tried to ease our top picks in, let them work on their games in the best possible circumstances available to the club and establish themselves before really taking over the club. Hall, Ebs and RNH were handed the keys to the team, organization and city from day one. Add management that sat on Its hands re: rounding out the core or supporting cast, and that constantly changed coaches to ill effect so that the players never got any consistent direction, even if it was often poor direction as came from the legendary Tank Commander, Joseph of Sacco. And the reasons for our divergent paths is a lot more than we got Landeskog with our picks and they got a third scorer.

I'm not sure what that sentence means, but getting 3 franchise players in Duchene, MacK and Landeskog makes a world of difference, and it's got everything to do with our scouting and drafting as opposed to theirs.

Call Hall and Duchene a wash if you will. Is there legitimately a GM in the league who would still pick Nugent-Hopkins over Landeskog today? Highly doubt it. Kevin Lowe's pillow is tear soaked when he thinks of these two teams having back-to-back 1st overall picks, and the Oilers end up with Yakupov and we get MacKinnon. That's a back-breaker.

In any regard, yes there are a ton of things Colorado did much more wisely than Edmonton. The most crucial one, to me, was drafting well when they drafted high.

 

[cgf]

Chicago drafted who is arguably the greatest center in the entire NHL. I'd say they did it right. They continue to pad their center depth by acquiring veteran depth up the middle just about every offseason, including this year with Richrdson. Centers win cups.

Sure, but if the reason Edmonton failed is because they should've picked more centers then chicago should fail as well. I love Toews and all, but they've had pretty craptacular center depth behind him and have never added a draisaitl to be their number 2c like Edmonton did. Which is why it seems silly to me to try to argue that edmonton's struggles come entirely from only using two of their last 5 top 10 picks on centers.

Those top 10 picks are the biggest thig they've gotten right, if only they had the courage to trade Eberle for someone like Gudbranson to partner nurse on the top pairing down the line, and to replace Ebs on the top line with an actually leader like Ladd.

 

[cgf]

I'm not sure what that sentence means, but getting 3 franchise players in Duchene, MacK and Landeskog makes a world of difference, and it's got everything to do with our scouting and drafting as opposed to theirs.

Call Hall and Duchene a wash if you will. Is there legitimately a GM in the league who would still pick Nugent-Hopkins over Landeskog today? Highly doubt it. Kevin Lowe's pillow is tear soaked when he thinks of these two teams having back-to-back 1st overall picks, and the Oilers end up with Yakupov and we get MacKinnon. That's a back-breaker.

In any regard, yes there are a ton of things Colorado did much more wisely than Edmonton. The most crucial one, to me, was drafting well when they drafted high.

I love Landy he's my favorite player on the team, plays the NHL caliber version of how I played growing up, we're even around the same size, and I've told my sister who's studying in bolder repeatedly to use her powers of getting to know anyone she wants to find Gabe and marry him. I was on here praying we could add him more than a year before his draft, but no one in their right mind would've taken Landy over RNH. Edmonton have developed RNH poorly, but that doesn't change that he was the right pick at the time. I mean can you imagine the outrage if they passed on a #1c with the talent to put up multiple 90+ point seasons for a third winger? They'd never lived that down, not with Gagner and horcoff as the top two centers for hall, Landy and Eberle.

Same for Yakubov, that kid is a better shooter than MacK, and a great skater in his own right so while MacK is surely a cut above, size, center and even better speed, but Yakubov was also the right pick at the time, it just needed to be followed up with them trading Eberle for a defender and adding some gritty vets who could play with the kids and mentor them, not by trading for another scoring winger (Perron) and hoping washed up 4 the liners like Ryan smyth would lead them. With no defense.

 

[ABasin]

They had so many more first picks than us.

I believe it's two simple things: The Avs got a goaltender, and the Avs got a coach to pull it all together.

I think there are other possible factors, in that Colorado used most of its high picks on centers, while Edmonton drafted a few wings in there. Both teams had highly drafted guys come right in and produce, both teams have highly drafted guys who haven't contributed much yet. That comes into play also.

But in the end, I think it comes down to the two things above. Give Edmonton a Veniza-capable goaltender and a coach who could get the most out of their guys, and they'd compete for a playoff spot.

 

[cgf]

I believe it's two simple things: The Avs got a goaltender, and the Avs got a coach to pull it all together.

I think there are other possible factors, in that Colorado used most of its high picks on centers, while Edmonton drafted a few wings in there. Both teams had highly drafted guys come right in and produce, both teams have highly drafted guys who haven't contributed much yet. That comes into play also.

But in the end, I think it comes down to the two things above. Give Edmonton a Veniza-capable goaltender and a coach who could get the most out of their guys, and they'd compete for a playoff spot.

Those two factors as well as management that wasn't so in love with our youth that they feared making trades (EJ and Varly), and having Stastny to help shepherd Duchene and later MacK into the NHL in sheltered roles, are the four points that separate us.

Snagging Barrie and ror later is a big part of it to but they got Eberle with a late first that was near where we got ROR, and they got Klefblom and Marincin who are similar in raw talent to Barrie and Bigras.

 

[ABasin]

having Stastny to help shepherd Duchene and later MacK into the NHL in sheltered roles.

Great point. This was certainly important.

 

[AvsGuy]

I love Landy he's my favorite player on the team, plays the NHL caliber version of how I played growing up, we're even around the same size, and I've told my sister who's studying in bolder repeatedly to use her powers of getting to know anyone she wants to find Gabe and marry him. I was on here praying we could add him more than a year before his draft, but no one in their right mind would've taken Landy over RNH. Edmonton have developed RNH poorly, but that doesn't change that he was the right pick at the time. I mean can you imagine the outrage if they passed on a #1c with the talent to put up multiple 90+ point seasons for a third winger? They'd never lived that down, not with Gagner and horcoff as the top two centers for hall, Landy and Eberle.

Same for Yakubov, that kid is a better shooter than MacK, and a great skater in his own right so while MacK is surely a cut above, size, center and even better speed, but Yakubov was also the right pick at the time, it just needed to be followed up with them trading Eberle for a defender and adding some gritty vets who could play with the kids and mentor them, not by trading for another scoring winger (Perron) and hoping washed up 4 the liners like Ryan smyth would lead them. With no defense.

I'm gonna disagree hard, on one main point: I don't consider RNH to be a #1 center, and I don't think he's ever going to be one. He's yet to break 20 goals or 60 points, while Landeskog is a good bet for a 30-45-75 season, plays hard-nosed, and is our captain to boot. The disparity already at their young ages is eye-opening. If I'm Edmonton, I'm massively disappointed with that pick, and I don't have half the boner for Landy that you do. Edmonton would be significantly ahead of where they are now if you flip those picks.

Yakupov was the right pick at the time because he was the most talented, not because he was the best fit - Edmonton was loaded with young talented forwards in 2012. At risk of getting ahead of myself, he won't have a fraction of the career MacKinnon does, totally comfortable with saying that.

 

[cgf]

Oh I don't think he's a #1 right now either, but coming out that's what RNH profiled to become if his development wasn't butchered. And that's why they had to take him over Landy.

As for yak, I agree it wasn't a great fit since they don't follow it up with trading Eberle like they should've. But with the first pick you always draft the best talent even if you're stacked at the position like we were at C and oilers at W.

 

[henchman21]

You need to have a #1C in the NHL to be truly successful... so,RNH over Landy was the right pick considering they took Hall over Seguin, which was a mistake. If they made the right choice to begin with, they would have Seguin/Landy over Hall/RNH.

 

[Freudian]

You need to have a #1C in the NHL to be truly successful... so,RNH over Landy was the right pick considering they took Hall over Seguin, which was a mistake. If they made the right choice to begin with, they would have Seguin/Landy over Hall/RNH.

Or Seguin/Nugent-Hopkins as a 1-2 punch down the middle.

 

[henchman21]

Or Seguin/Nugent-Hopkins as a 1-2 punch down the middle.

Or that.

Hall over Seguin and Yak over Murray were the two drafting mistakes. Especially when you pair that with management that is not willing to make the trades to fill out the roster.

 

[DarioinDenver]

Or Seguin/Nugent-Hopkins as a 1-2 punch down the middle.

Precisely my point.

Also, to the previous point above on Chicago.. Sharp as a #2 center for Chicago in their Stanley cup runs was key, as well as continued center depth with Kruger, Bolland, Shaw...

Goalie, Centers and top pairing D are the common ground of every Stanley Cup champion and even then not all of them have amazing goal tenders. Got to get that top center and preferably top two centers.

 

[oilerbear]

They had so many more first picks than us.

Th Colorado avalanche were a 6-10 west team in 12-13.
They lucked out having key injuries like a top 30 box d. Hedja.
If it is a full season the players return an Colorado is out of the lottery.
Instead you get mckinnon added to a playoff team.
Zero Roy majic!

When you look at all the past cup winners. Their is a standard model.
1. Top 30 fwd scoring
2 deep top 90 fwd scoring
3. Deep top 180 fwd scoring in top 9
4. 2 tough zone start forward pairs.
5. 4+ top 40 box protection d
6. A high box save % & low rebound rate goalie.
If less than 4+ box d.

Mact knew the model.
He started his BOLD Gm work.

June 13 to camp 13 he added
Perron
Ference
Arcobello
Gordon
Gazdic
Jeonsuu

Mid jan 14
Marincin
Scrivens
Hendricks
Fasth

June 14
Draisatl
Nikitin
Purcell
Pouliot
Fayne
Aulie

The only roster position being fought for is 4 RW.

When we had 2 + of our top 180 forwards injured the oilers were 1-11 against east and bottom of west.
We added 2 more top 180.
When we had less than 2 injured 19-7-5

Were 1-20-2 with dubnyk, smid, n. Schultz, belov versus the best of west.

With scrivens and Marincin. 7 - 7

In 13 months Mact added 17 new roster positions.

Retained Petry, Eberle, Hall, Rnh, Yak, J. Schultz
Answer?
Pre Katz drafting was terrible.

He used the cup model to change 74% of the roster.

1. Top 30. (2)
Hall #6
Eberle #26

2. Top 90. (5)
Peron #56
Rnh #59
Purcell #74

3. Top 180. (7)
Pouliot #154
Yakupov #161

4. D Zone start fwd pairs. (2)
Hendricks - Gordon 13-14 EDM
Pouliot - Purcell 12-13 TMP

5. Top 40 Box protection d. (5)
Petry 11-12, 12-13
Ference BOS cup to mid jan (pectoral tear)
Marincin mid jan. On #3 behind Chara, Lovejoy
Nikitin #1 2nd comp last 3 yr
Fayne #2 2nd comp last 3 yr

6. Box save% low rebound goalie last 3 years.
1. Bishop
2. Lundquist
3. Reimer
4. Scrivens
5. Rask
6. Lehtonen
7. Quick

Looking at any records before jan. 14 has zero to do with the current oilers.

Other than 700% versus the east and bottom west.
500% versus best of west.

Now add
Draisatl
Purcell
Nikkitin
Pouliot

 

[Gigantor The Goalie]

Sacco wasn't taking this team anywhere. He was the Lacriox's puppet boy. Roy and Sakic came in and tore the Franchise from it's decayed roots and pretty much reinvigorated the team and organization. Roy comes in bringing in a new culture and structure to the team. He brings in an actual full time goalie coach who is creating a goalie coach system in the whole organization. Roy brings in new ideas and structure. He brings in players like Holden and Benoit to provide a stop gap. Roy takes O'Reilly from centre and puts him on Duchene's wing because he believed that O'Reilly could be good there like Forsberg was. What do you know, it worked. Roy gave everyone a chance to prove themselves.

MacKinnon probably would have been benched and scratched with any other coach. Yet Roy kept throwing him out there. "Hey kid you made a mistake, learn from it and do better". He was able to turn Duchene into a Gold Medal Olympian. Roy has also brought in Iginla. Two years ago if it was brought up that the Avs would be signing Iginla, everyone on these boards would laugh uncontrollably. Now though Roy has made everything possible.

The impact Roy has had can not be understated. Sure he walked into a seemingly favourable situation. However this team and organization was a mess. Sacco didn't have a plan, the Lacriox's didn't have a plan and neither did ownership.

I applaud MacT for the job he's done so far. He's slowly turning the ship around but it's going to take a bit longer. They have no EJ. They have no starting goalie. Their top 6 is unproven and unpredictable. I just don't see the Oilers making the strides the Avs did last season. Plus that Benoit Pouliout signing? Yuck.

 

[cgf]

Great point. This was certainly important.

It's part of the big problem in Edmonton, those kids weren't brought along patiently but thrown straight into the fire with all of the responsibility. RNH probably shouldn't even have been in the NHL his rookie, instead profiting from a druoin like development, hall, Eberle and yak have never had a good and gritty winger to learn from. Someone to show them how to create but also defend and pressure their opponents. Without that example for young players to learn from the onus gets put on coaching. And edmonton's carousel of coaches has not helped a bad situation.

That's why I think they made the right picks with hall-seguin being the only debateable one, they just completely botched the development of those picks so far. And if they don't add a legit Twoway c to hold down the second line for a while, like Vermette or goc, they're about to do it to draisaitl as well and I'll never forgive them for it. Our country doesn't produce enough special talents for the one we do put out to be ruined.

 

[oilerbear]

Or that.

Hall over Seguin and Yak over Murray were the two drafting mistakes. Especially when you pair that with management that is not willing to make the trades to fill out the roster.

Micro analysis of picks is wonderful.

But sometimes a great Gm's moves make it a wasted discussion.

Example: RNH or Landeskog

Mact traded for Perron

Post lockout results:
Landeskog 117gm 35G 82P #56fwd

Perron 128gm 38G 82P 56 fwd

17 of 23 roster positions changed.

Mgmt not willing to change roster?

#1 producing LW in the game. Mistake?

 

[dahrougem2]

Micro analysis of picks is wonderful.

But sometimes a great Gm's moves make it a wasted discussion.

Example: RNH or Landeskog

Mact traded for Perron

Post lockout results:
Landeskog 117gm 35G 82P #56fwd

Perron 128gm 38G 82P 56 fwd

17 of 23 roster positions changed.

Mgmt not willing to change roster?

#1 producing LW in the game. Mistake?

You can't compare those two at all though seeing as Landeskog is infinitely better than Perron in literally everything else, so the fact that they can put up the same amount of points is a bonus for us. Physicality, two-way play, leadership, Landeskog does it better. There is no comparison to be made. Points aren't everything. In fact. it's part of the reason the Oilers are where they are, because of misleading statistics from Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, etc

 

[oilerbear]

It's part of the big problem in Edmonton, those kids weren't brought along patiently but thrown straight into the fire with all of the responsibility. RNH probably shouldn't even have been in the NHL his rookie, instead profiting from a druoin like development, hall, Eberle and yak have never had a good and gritty winger to learn from. Someone to show them how to create but also defend and pressure their opponents. Without that example for young players to learn from the onus gets put on coaching. And edmonton's carousel of coaches has not helped a bad situation.

That's why I think they made the right picks with hall-seguin being the only debateable one, they just completely botched the development of those picks so far. And if they don't add a legit Twoway c to hold down the second line for a while, like Vermette or goc, they're about to do it to draisaitl as well and I'll never forgive them for it. Our country doesn't produce enough special talents for the one we do put out to be ruined.

There was no veteran depth to keep them off.
Mackinnon was on the team cause he increased the top 90 depth on the team to the best in the league.

Same reason he gives COL the same top 90 depth in the game.
SJS. 3 top 30. 5 top 90
CHI 2 top 30. 5 top 90
EDM. 2 top 30. 5 top 90
COL 1 top 30. 5 top 90

Playing a 6'2" 215 lb in between the #23 EVG wing and the #90 EVG wing.

Wrecking him?