How are these pads allowed?

[Disengage]

Just going to leave this here.

 

[Siamese Dream]

The pads in the Patrick Roy era were wider, even though not as tall.

Also bigger is not always better. Big pads hinder movement.

 

[biturbo19]

These are no longer on modern goalie gloves. At all. Educate yourself.

Yeah, no Cheaters at all these days. Fortunately, they've replaced that slight deflector with just...more blocking surface in the palm area.

Trying to argue modern goaltending equipment isn't absurd, is a losing cause. You just cannot do it. Because it is legitimately absurd. It's insanely oversized. There are really no two-ways about it.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Yeah, no Cheaters at all these days. Fortunately, they've replaced that slight deflector with just...more blocking surface in the palm area.

Trying to argue modern goaltending equipment isn't absurd, is a losing cause. You just cannot do it. Because it is legitimately absurd. It's insanely oversized. There are really no two-ways about it.

That's not what you said at first though is it you were proven wrong, and are now deflecting the point.

And they have in fact significantly reduced the maximum circumference a glove is allowed to be in recent years. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

What are you going to do next? Post a picture of 2003 Giguere?

 

[biturbo19]

The pads in the Patrick Roy era were wider, even though not as tall.

Also bigger is not always better. Big pads hinder movement.

This is the most stupid argument.

And completely ignorant of the way modern pads function. If you're playing a contemporary style of goaltending where you live in a butterfly and your pads live flat on the ice..."mobility" and "movement" are at least equal to previous smaller pads, honestly quite superior...especially when they weigh a fraction as much and have foam compounds designed to much more effectively control rebounds. Anyone who has ever held a pad from the 90s compared to a pad from today...much less worn them, is going to know that there is an immense difference, and to claim "lesser mobility" with newer pads is asinine.

 

[Iceman]

I have a tough time seeing any difference between Hank, Price, Varlamov, Loungo's pads... or for that matter any other goalie, except the color.

If anyone is a cheater these days with these pads, then all goalies today are cheaters.

 

[Siamese Dream]

This is the most stupid argument.

And completely ignorant of the way modern pads function. If you're playing a contemporary style of goaltending where you live in a butterfly and your pads live flat on the ice..."mobility" and "movement" are at least equal to previous smaller pads, honestly quite superior...especially when they weigh a fraction as much and have foam compounds designed to much more effectively control rebounds. Anyone who has ever held a pad from the 90s compared to a pad from today...much less worn them, is going to know that there is an immense difference, and to claim "lesser mobility" with newer pads is asinine.

That's not what I was arguing. I meant having taller modern pads vs shorter modern pads. Not taller modern pads vs shorter older pads.

Also I'm not completely ignorant of the way modern pads function, since I do actually play goalie in real life. I once dropped 2 inches off the thigh rise of my pads and saw a significant increase in my mobility, which ultimately improved my game.

 

[Iceman]

Just going to leave this here.

Unless he is really short, the pads are just as big. He does have less pads and stuff around the legs and I bet around the rest of the body too, but the pads seems the same except being more chubby and round-ish.

 

[biturbo19]

That's not what you said at first though is it you were proven wrong, and are now deflecting the point.

And they have in fact significantly reduced the maximum circumference a glove is allowed to be in recent years. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

What are you going to do next? Post a picture of 2003 Giguere?

I'm not "proven wrong", it's just proven that you think a tiny deflector is somehow an exoneration of modern goaltending equipment featuring a "cheater" in a slightly altered form.

Every glove still has it, it's just less blatantly formed now, and lacks the extreme ramp-like deflective quality which is actually counterproductive to modern glove-usage anyway.

I'm not sure what argument you think you're trying to win here, but you will never ever win an argument suggesting that contemporary goaltending equipment isn't designed entirely to stop pucks...over pure protective value. Because it simply isn't.

 

[biturbo19]

That's not what I was arguing. I meant having taller modern pads vs shorter modern pads. Not taller modern pads vs shorter older pads.

Also I'm not completely ignorant of the way modern pads function, since I do actually play goalie in real life. I once dropped 2 inches off the thigh rise of my pads and saw a significant increase in my mobility, which ultimately improved my game.

And in what way does that not impact potential goals against at the highest level in hockey?

Taller modern pads, designed to fill a five-hole without stick placement, vs shorter modern pads. Vs massively smaller thigh rises of "old school pads", and the completely different rotating properties thereof.


The point is still...goaltending pads have "evolved" to a point where they cover a substantial portion of the net in and of themselves, regardless of goaltender at the helm. It's not a "skill" its a "size". And it completely dilutes the "skill" component of the goaltending position.

People want to know why less goals are scored? It's probably about directly proportionate percentage-wise to "amount of space goaltenders can occupy in the net". You can fiddle around with any number of other things you want...but ultimately, goaltending and the increasing size/efficiency of goaltending equipment is undeniably the cause of lower scoring rates.


You put Carey Price in net with Patrick Roy's pads, and he's literally THE WORST goaltender in the entire NHL. That's how extreme the difference is. And it's a problem.

 

[Siamese Dream]

It wouldn't be a goalie equipment bashing thread without someone posting this either, so again I'll save someone the trouble

Just ignore the massive difference in height between the two men, that isn't relevant at all. The modern equipment is HUGE and the old equipment is TINY!

 

[Siamese Dream]

And in what way does that not impact potential goals against at the highest level in hockey?

Taller modern pads, designed to fill a five-hole without stick placement, vs shorter modern pads. Vs massively smaller thigh rises of "old school pads", and the completely different rotating properties thereof.


The point is still...goaltending pads have "evolved" to a point where they cover a substantial portion of the net in and of themselves, regardless of goaltender at the helm. It's not a "skill" its a "size". And it completely dilutes the "skill" component of the goaltending position.

People want to know why less goals are scored? It's probably about directly proportionate percentage-wise to "amount of space goaltenders can occupy in the net". You can fiddle around with any number of other things you want...but ultimately, goaltending and the increasing size/efficiency of goaltending equipment is undeniably the cause of lower scoring rates.


You put Carey Price in net with Patrick Roy's pads, and he's literally THE WORST goaltender in the entire NHL. That's how extreme the difference is. And it's a problem.

So what's your point? The NHL should just ignore all technological advancements and make the goalies wear the crappy really heavy pads of the old days?

 

[biturbo19]

It wouldn't be a goalie equipment bashing thread without someone posting this either, so again I'll save someone the trouble

Just ignore the massive difference in height between the two men, that isn't relevant at all. The modern equipment is HUGE and the old equipment is TINY!

Play off the fact Panger was a ****** goaltender all you want...the fact is, people that sized could legitimately play at the highest level once upon a time, because it was about ability, not size.

And Terry Sawchuk was what, 5'11"? Goaltenders simply are not that short anymore, (less than half a dozen NHLers in the sub6-ft club really) because the position has become less about skill, reflexes, agility, all the rest...and more about "playing the percentages" by being extremely tall like Ben Bishop where you can wear extremely stupidly sized equipment.



Somewhere there IS a balance with respect for the massive improvement in shooting ability that has occurred in recent years. But it's not where goaltending equipment currently lies. The way goaltending as a position is headed, is moving alarmingly towards Wang's idiotic Sumo idea....and the equipment rules are conducive to that. Which is bad.


And it's just insane to suggest that current goaltender equipment is 100% about "protection" and has nothing to do with providing a "save making advantage".


That the motion is toward making a "bigger net", rather than just reducing goaltending equipment to something closer to what it once was when goals used to be scored...is idiotic.


People want "skill" to shine in every other area of the game...what's wrong with letting "skill" shine in net once again, like it did in the days of the great and memorable goaltenders of the prior age? The Haskek/Roy/Brodeur/Belfour/Richter/Joseph/Barasso/Vernon/Beezer/Ranford/Osgood/Potvin/Irbe/Hrudy/Hextall/McLean/Fuhr/Thibault/Tugnutt/Moog/Kidd/Puppa/Burke/Rhodes/Carey/etc. era...where goaltenders were completely distinct and "superstars" in their own right. Where they weren't just interchangeable sets of pads in the net. That was better. There was more scoring, there was more respect for the great goaltenders who could rise above the crop...it was just better.

 

[Micklebot]

It wouldn't be a goalie equipment bashing thread without someone posting this either, so again I'll save someone the trouble

Just ignore the massive difference in height between the two men, that isn't relevant at all. The modern equipment is HUGE and the old equipment is TINY!

Darren Pang was a midget for his era.. dudes 5'5" and I think that measurement might have been done with lifts.

I mean, it's fair to point out goalies are bigger now than they were then, but comparing an above average height goalie now to probably the shortest goalie of his era is a bit absurd.

When you look at old equipment from similar sized goalies from each era, there certainly is a difference. Posting pictures or Romano and Pang certainly isn't representative of the true difference in size, as both are 8 inches shorter than the average goalie today, but the pictures of Roy are certainly valid.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Play off the fact Panger was a ****** goaltender all you want...the fact is, people that sized could legitimately play at the highest level once upon a time, because it was about ability, not size.

And Terry Sawchuk was what, 5'11"? Goaltenders simply are not that short anymore, (less than half a dozen NHLers in the sub6-ft club really) because the position has become less about skill, reflexes, agility, all the rest...and more about "playing the percentages" by being extremely tall like Ben Bishop where you can wear extremely stupidly sized equipment.



Somewhere there IS a balance with respect for the massive improvement in shooting ability that has occurred in recent years. But it's not where goaltending equipment currently lies. The way goaltending as a position is headed, is moving alarmingly towards Wang's idiotic Sumo idea....and the equipment rules are conducive to that. Which is bad.


And it's just insane to suggest that current goaltender equipment is 100% about "protection" and has nothing to do with providing a "save making advantage".


That the motion is toward making a "bigger net", rather than just reducing goaltending equipment to something closer to what it once was when goals used to be scored...is idiotic.


People want "skill" to shine in every other area of the game...what's wrong with letting "skill" shine in net once again, like it did in the days of the great and memorable goaltenders of the prior age? The Haskek/Roy/Brodeur/Belfour/Richter/Joseph/Barasso/Vernon/Beezer/Ranford/Osgood/Potvin/Irbe/Hrudy/Hextall/McLean/Fuhr/Thibault/Tugnutt/Moog/Kidd/Puppa/Burke/Rhodes/Carey/etc. era...where goaltenders were completely distinct and "superstars" in their own right. Where they weren't just interchangeable sets of pads in the net. That was better. There was more scoring, there was more respect for the great goaltenders who could rise above the crop...it was just better.

Bigger people are more successful in a position where their primary objective is to block something?

Soccer goalies are generally taller guys nowadays too because they have a natural advantage, they don't wear any equipment at all except for small gloves and tiny shin pads and the goal is massive. The reason the trend is moving towards taller guys is more to do with the improvements in training and coaching. Back in your "good old days" goalie coaches weren't really a thing for younger guys. The number of good goalies overall was significantly less then than it was now, now with the wider availability of goalie specific coaching there is a much larger talent pool. You have alluded to the fact that guys like Brodeur, Hasek and Roy were superstars, because they were so much better than their peers, that isn't the case anymore because of the coaching and education available to guys these days, the talent pool is deeper, there is less disparity between goalies. Also when there are so many goalies to choose from when you're scouting and you can't see much of a difference in their abilities, you take the bigger one because size can't be taught and he has more chance of stopping the screened shots he can't see.

Size isn't everything, there are big goalies who absolutely suck. There is still a massive amount of talent and ability required to play the position. Look at a guy like Jason Missiaen for example, a 6'8" monster who can hardly hold down a place in the AHL, because he just isn't very good. Smaller goalies used to get to the NHL more often in the old days because there was less competition.

How do you account for people continuing to smash world records in athletics? It's because of the advancements in education of things like training, nutrition and coaching. People in the modern day are just better at sports.

 

[Noldo]

Yes, they are.

When a goalie is down on his knees, without that top third, the puck would hit them, and it would hurt, a lot.

I love it when people who have never played in goal think they can decide what is and isn't for protection.

Although I have not played hockey, and especially not as a goalie, I believe that the legpads a d pants could be designed to provide equal protection to the legs and knees also in butterfly without taking away as much net as they currently do for example by making the pads wrap around the leg more.

However, no manufacturer will make such innovations unless forced to since their customers are the goalies and understandably the goalies will use whatever legal equipment that allows them to perform best.

The league should define some parameters for safety (minimum padding/force absorbtion required in different locations and directions) and announce that smallest equipment that will meet those standards would be defined as maximum size of equipment, practically giving the manufacturer that manages to make smallest pads de facto monopoly for gear until the competitors manage to catch up. Re-evaluate every two or three years and let capitalism do what it does best making the manufacturers race to the bottom, resulting in smaller yet safe equipment.

 

[biturbo19]

Bigger people are more successful in a position where their primary objective is to block something?

Soccer goalies are generally taller guys nowadays too because they have a natural advantage, they don't wear any equipment at all except for small gloves and tiny shin pads and the goal is massive. The reason the trend is moving towards taller guys is more to do with the improvements in training and coaching. Back in your "good old days" goalie coaches weren't really a thing for younger guys. The number of good goalies overall was significantly less then than it was now, now with the wider availability of goalie specific coaching there is a much larger talent pool. You have alluded to the fact that guys like Brodeur, Hasek and Roy were superstars, because they were so much better than their peers, that isn't the case anymore because of the coaching and education available to guys these days, the talent pool is deeper, there is less disparity between goalies. Also when there are so many goalies to choose from when you're scouting and you can't see much of a difference in their abilities, you take the bigger one because size can't be taught and he has more chance of stopping the screened shots he can't see.

Size isn't everything, there are big goalies who absolutely suck. There is still a massive amount of talent and ability required to play the position. Look at a guy like Jason Missiaen for example, a 6'8" monster who can hardly hold down a place in the AHL, because he just isn't very good. Smaller goalies used to get to the NHL more often in the old days because there was less competition.

How do you account for people continuing to smash world records in athletics? It's because of the advancements in education of things like training, nutrition and coaching. People in the modern day are just better at sports.

I never once said "size is everything". I suggested that there is a "barrier to entry" now, that did not previously exist. And it's not just "training" and "skill" and "ability". It's size.


The importance of "size" vs "all other factors" has become extreme. And that, is bad.

Just take a look at how few sub 6' foot goaltenders still play in the NHL. And even fewer of them are "starting goaltenders". It's not by accident...it's by design. And that design, is the "imma take up the most space possible percentage wise" school of modern goaltender...which inherently favours bigger goaltenders with some modicum of athletic ability.

You're trying to skew this, but it is not skewable. Literally, bigger goaltenders and vastly bigger equipment take up more of the net and less goals are scored. It's extremely simple.

The primary objective of hockey goaltending has ALWAYS been to block things. And yet the average size of goaltenders has increased exponentially in recent years. That's not a coincidence or an "inherent function of the position". It's a factor related to equipment sizes. And a de-emphasis on "skills" like "reading the play", "anticipation", "reflexes". Replaced by an emphasis on "being bigger and getting in the way of things". And it's wholly intertwined with the changes that have happened in equipment sizes and design.

 

[Siamese Dream]

That's not a coincidence or an "inherent function of the position". It's a factor related to equipment sizes.

Soccer goalies disprove this.

I guarantee if the pads from the 80s were still being used, the average height of an NHL goalie would still have increased dramatically. It's because there's a larger talent pool, and taller guys have the advantage. It's literally absolutely nothing to do with the equipment. It wasn't just the equipment that evolved, it was the style of play. Playing the percentages and cutting down angles is a far more efficient way of playing the position than the "exciting" scrambling around and flailing your limbs style of play that traditionalists want to see, regardless of what equipment you're using.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Ironically Henrik Lundqvist is often the one guy singled out and picked on for the size of his equipment, when his style of play does not match the narrative of "playing the percentages and hoping it hits you" goaltending at all. He plays deep in the net and relies on reflexes.

 

[Evergreen]

Yes, they are.

When a goalie is down on his knees, without that top third, the puck would hit them, and it would hurt, a lot.

I love it when people who have never played in goal think they can decide what is and isn't for protection.

Dude, have you played goal? Because I have played goal for 20 years and while you do need some protection above the knee, you don't need nearly as much as many goalies have in the NHL. My pads have about 4 inches less protection above the knee than this and I've never gotten hit with a puck above the knee. That extra padding Lundqvist and others have is so that they can cover their entire five hole when down in butterfly.

 

[Evergreen]

This is THE "Butterfly Goalie" Messiah here. And you cannot even remotely equate those pads to what a guy like Lundqvist wears today. It's just a wildly different style of pads, if not just massively taller.


Current goaltending pads are designed in a completely different fashion than these plenty "protective" units of the past. Those Roy type pads are what i grew up with, and i'm acutely aware of how they differ from "contemporary" pad designs. I'm very acutely aware of where goaltending leg pads for example, diverged from "protective equipment" to "butterfly conducive equipment".


You obviously have to find the right balance...but as it stands now, the balance clearly favours "size" goaltending. Big body goaltenders with bigger pads to block more net area. The bigger the pads, the better. And that to me, is both a plague on the integrity of the goaltending position...and a real tangible contributor to the lowered scoring of the "modern era" of hockey.

You can inflate/deflate scoring all you want with PP opportunities...but ultimately, it's a roundabout way of trying to defeat oversized goaltending equipment by generating East-West Movement and unpredictable tip-ins from that, which can beat the percentages covered at the bottom of the net by the pads alone.

Perfect post.

 

[Wingman77]

The pads in the Patrick Roy era were wider, even though not as tall.

Also bigger is not always better. Big pads hinder movement.

The pads were also far heavier as well which makes the successful work some of the goalies pre 2005ish and their bodies of work all the more impressive

There are really no "wow" goaltenders in today's game, a number of solid and consistent ones, absolutely, but otherwise not much we haven't seen before.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Dude, have you played goal? Because I have played goal for 20 years and while you do need some protection above the knee, you don't need nearly as much as many goalies have in the NHL. My pads have about 4 inches less protection above the knee than this and I've never gotten hit with a puck above the knee. That extra padding Lundqvist and others have is so that they can cover their entire five hole when down in butterfly.

Yeah it's so they can cover their entire five hole when down in the butterfly so a puck can't get through and hit them in the knee.

Yes I do play goalie. I wear a +1 thigh rise and have been hit in the knee on several occasions when moving across in the butterfly and a puck gets deflected. Why do you think many goalies wear extra knee protection UNDER their "massive" pads?

 

[CaseyMitts37]

This is an MLL goalie

This is an NLL goalie

The nets, believe it or not, are the same size.

The difference in scoring between the two leagues is about 3 goals per game which in lacrosse is bumble**** nothing.

The nets are not nearly as big in indoor lacrosse

Also, indoor lacrosse is played on a hockey rink while outdoor lacrosse is played on a football field

 

[Love]

Equipment gets reduced. Lundqvist's stats get better. K.

No one is attacking Lundqvist. It's a league wide problem not a lundqvist problem.


People always try and make up stupid idea's about how to "fix" the game and increase scoring when in reality all you need to do is:

1) Call the game like it is written in the rule book.

2) Make goalie equipment about protection rather than being the Michelin Man on skates.

That picture of Roy on the first page is a perfect example. His pads are the size pads should be in todays game.