How aggressive should the Leafs be at the deadline? Whimper or All In?

[Skullz]

We need to make a huge swing or do nothing. Team is fairly mid with excellent goaltending. Add a legitimate difference maker. I'm sick of all these small time moves that burn picks after picks. Get someone with term, and someone better than Scott freaking Laughton.

 

[Stephen]

I think the window is the next couple of years. For example, Toews and Kane didn't win anything after about age 28. How old are our guys? Exactly. You're not winning anything with huge contracts to aging players.

I don’t know if we’re on any timetable to win, but it’s sure as hell not Chicago. Chicago winning so early and often was unique and special to them and their decline was prematurely brought on by the cap crunch.

 

[Stephen]

We need to make a huge swing or do nothing. Team is fairly mid with excellent goaltending. Add a legitimate difference maker. I'm sick of all these small time moves that burn picks after picks. Get someone with term, and someone better than Scott freaking Laughton.

Yeah I agree that a difference maker would be preferable to death by a thousand transactions. The power outage this year is Matthews injuries and inconsistency. That leaves a huge hole in the lineup as far as star power.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I don’t know if we’re on any timetable to win, but it’s sure as hell not Chicago. Chicago winning so early and often was unique and special to them and their decline was prematurely brought on by the cap crunch.

I think you’re right for sure, but you need younger players to supplement the core as it ages. When Ovi won, he was 31 but Kuznetsov was 26. Can Knies be that guy, for example?

 

[Stephen]

I think you’re right for sure, but you need younger players to supplement the core as it ages. When Ovi won, he was 31 but Kuznetsov was 26. Can Knies be that guy, for example?

Well this is why I’m hesitant to sell off and help this current team.

Matthews is not up to standard and a shadow of the player he was entering the 2024 playoffs. Temporary injury plagued setback? Hopefully…

Tavares is hitting UFA status and I think we all agree he isn’t the best use of $11 million. Maybe he’s back at a reduced rate and we can allocate some of his savings to Knies re-signing or a modest upgrade, getting one player deeper.

Marner, assume we keep him. Nylander is Nylander.

So with everything at the top staying about the same we need Knies and McMann to keep growing, clean up some of the crap at the bottom six scum pond. And give ourselves a chance that Minten, Cowan and Grebenkin can push up and fill a spot here and there, form a next wave.

You cut that off for a Scott Laughton and it’s curtains for this era.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'd pay more for a player who has accomplished less, but has yet to hit his ceiling.

Really, hope they don't chase short term, declining players, but rather look longer term now players with untapped upside.

Wonder if there are some young players who've been on pathetic teams who just need a glimmer of hope to elevate and achieve their ceiling.

That seems to have been a major problem with the Leafs for many years - signing big name players past their prime and being surprised they can't do in their late 30s what they did in their 20s.

 

[thewave]

Crosby or bust

 

[boltsfan86]

Outside observer (Bolts fan) coming in peace. I am super biased in my take based on what I've seen Brisebois do and I understand that what worked once or twice in the past may not work again, but here is my $0.02 (that's probably worth even less).

1. If you're going after a rental and giving up assets, don't cheap out. You're just going to have to make the same trade next year (see: Edmundson, Schenn, Sandin for Gustafsson and a 1st, Dewar, Engvall, Lafferty, Acciari, all trades that basically got you the same guy four times over that cost assets every time)
2. Take a big swing at the player you want most if they're available, especially if they're still 20 something years old and under team control. It will require risk, and management needs to be a bit less risk-averse.
3. Unskilled depth adds alone won't get it done, even if they are technically upgrades. Whoever described the Leafs' approach as "death by a thousand roster moves" had it right. The Leafs need to figure out who their guy is, throw a draft class at the other team, and see what happens. At least if they come up short it will provide more clarity to management than basically putting the same team in the playoffs every year and not knowing what to do.
4. Stop spending assets at the deadline for diamonds in the rough/lottery picks. That's what the draft is for. It's way easier to go to the jeweler and buy the diamond, and just accept that it costs a lot to get one.

I think you guys have a really good team but it seems like management just copies and pastes the same deadline every year. The Core Four aren't getting any younger, and with Marner's future looking a bit uncertain, it's past time to take a big swing.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I hope I'm dead wrong but this team just doesn't excite me. Might have something to do with the last 8 years of course....

That said, time is short on this group. I think you gotta take a swing at the deadline.

 

[ULF_55]

Outside observer (Bolts fan) coming in peace. I am super biased in my take based on what I've seen Brisebois do and I understand that what worked once or twice in the past may not work again, but here is my $0.02 (that's probably worth even less).

1. If you're going after a rental and giving up assets, don't cheap out. You're just going to have to make the same trade next year (see: Edmundson, Schenn, Sandin for Gustafsson and a 1st, Dewar, Engvall, Lafferty, Acciari, all trades that basically got you the same guy four times over that cost assets every time)
2. Take a big swing at the player you want most if they're available, especially if they're still 20 something years old and under team control. It will require risk, and management needs to be a bit less risk-averse.
3. Unskilled depth adds alone won't get it done, even if they are technically upgrades. Whoever described the Leafs' approach as "death by a thousand roster moves" had it right. The Leafs need to figure out who their guy is, throw a draft class at the other team, and see what happens. At least if they come up short it will provide more clarity to management than basically putting the same team in the playoffs every year and not knowing what to do.
4. Stop spending assets at the deadline for diamonds in the rough/lottery picks. That's what the draft is for. It's way easier to go to the jeweler and buy the diamond, and just accept that it costs a lot to get one.

I think you guys have a really good team but it seems like management just copies and pastes the same deadline every year. The Core Four aren't getting any younger, and with Marner's future looking a bit uncertain, it's past time to take a big swing.

To paraphrase, my interpretation, "Go big or stay home."

I've stated many times, pay market rate for a permanent solution (okay semi-permanent as players are temps at the best of times).

Get a very good player(s) and your internal assets can be the depth players that already know your system.
or
Get depth players, that have to learn your system, and don't fill your greatest need anyway.

 

[boltsfan86]

To paraphrase, my interpretation, "Go big or stay home."

I've stated many times, pay market rate for a permanent solution (okay semi-permanent as players are temps at the best of times).

Get a very good player(s) and your internal assets can be the depth players that already know your system.
or
Get depth players, that have to learn your system, and don't fill your greatest need anyway.

Exactly what I was trying to say. I get that they landed McCabe at the deadline but just about every other deadline acquisition has come and gone. You have to make a splash to win more often than not. That might mean moving on from a player you really like. You can't always get it right, but going after nothing but mediocre rentals just ensures that you are never going to.

 

[PROUD PAPA]

Nice new thread title.

They whimper out, might as well whimper in as well.
There will be life after this core is finally finished. No point starting it with even fewer assets.

 

[banks]

Exactly what I was trying to say. I get that they landed McCabe at the deadline but just about every other deadline acquisition has come and gone. You have to make a splash to win more often than not. That might mean moving on from a player you really like. You can't always get it right, but going after nothing but mediocre rentals just ensures that you are never going to.

I'm still bummed and a bit angry that ROR didn't want to stay here. I figured that he would be a long term piece. But your point still stands. Too many picks have been sent out for players that come and go, and it's starting to show.

I'm fine going all-in at the deadline. But the players they bring in had better not just be on their last legs or players that don't move the needle like Laughton.

 

[boltsfan86]

I'm still bummed and a bit angry that ROR didn't want to stay here. I figured that he would be a long term piece. But your point still stands. Too many picks have been sent out for players that come and go, and it's starting to show.

I'm fine going all-in at the deadline. But the players they bring in had better not just be on their last legs or players that don't move the needle like Laughton.

I was going to mention O'Reilly, but it seemed like it might have been tough to fit him under the cap long-term. I honestly think the way that situation played out might be part of why Toronto GMs have been apprehensive about making a big move.

At the end of the day, you might as well either stand pat or shell out the assets you have for someone you know is a legit player with term and who will help the team win for the next couple of years.

It's unusual how many big names are out there this year, and I'd be surprised if the Leafs didn't make a hard push for some of them.

I agree on Laughton. Philly has wanted a first for him for what feels like three deadlines in a row now, and I don't see him being worth all that.

 

[Skullz]

Outside observer (Bolts fan) coming in peace. I am super biased in my take based on what I've seen Brisebois do and I understand that what worked once or twice in the past may not work again, but here is my $0.02 (that's probably worth even less).

1. If you're going after a rental and giving up assets, don't cheap out. You're just going to have to make the same trade next year (see: Edmundson, Schenn, Sandin for Gustafsson and a 1st, Dewar, Engvall, Lafferty, Acciari, all trades that basically got you the same guy four times over that cost assets every time)
2. Take a big swing at the player you want most if they're available, especially if they're still 20 something years old and under team control. It will require risk, and management needs to be a bit less risk-averse.
3. Unskilled depth adds alone won't get it done, even if they are technically upgrades. Whoever described the Leafs' approach as "death by a thousand roster moves" had it right. The Leafs need to figure out who their guy is, throw a draft class at the other team, and see what happens. At least if they come up short it will provide more clarity to management than basically putting the same team in the playoffs every year and not knowing what to do.
4. Stop spending assets at the deadline for diamonds in the rough/lottery picks. That's what the draft is for. It's way easier to go to the jeweler and buy the diamond, and just accept that it costs a lot to get one.

I think you guys have a really good team but it seems like management just copies and pastes the same deadline every year. The Core Four aren't getting any younger, and with Marner's future looking a bit uncertain, it's past time to take a big swing.

I have to say I think that you are exactly right.

 

[Racer88]

Exactly what I was trying to say. I get that they landed McCabe at the deadline but just about every other deadline acquisition has come and gone. You have to make a splash to win more often than not. That might mean moving on from a player you really like. You can't always get it right, but going after nothing but mediocre rentals just ensures that you are never going to.

You are correct but leafs management and some fans are paralyzed by fear to make significant changes.
Some think that without current player “A” or player “B” we are automatically worse and can’t win

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Outside observer (Bolts fan) coming in peace. I am super biased in my take based on what I've seen Brisebois do and I understand that what worked once or twice in the past may not work again, but here is my $0.02 (that's probably worth even less).

1. If you're going after a rental and giving up assets, don't cheap out. You're just going to have to make the same trade next year (see: Edmundson, Schenn, Sandin for Gustafsson and a 1st, Dewar, Engvall, Lafferty, Acciari, all trades that basically got you the same guy four times over that cost assets every time)
2. Take a big swing at the player you want most if they're available, especially if they're still 20 something years old and under team control. It will require risk, and management needs to be a bit less risk-averse.
3. Unskilled depth adds alone won't get it done, even if they are technically upgrades. Whoever described the Leafs' approach as "death by a thousand roster moves" had it right. The Leafs need to figure out who their guy is, throw a draft class at the other team, and see what happens. At least if they come up short it will provide more clarity to management than basically putting the same team in the playoffs every year and not knowing what to do.
4. Stop spending assets at the deadline for diamonds in the rough/lottery picks. That's what the draft is for. It's way easier to go to the jeweler and buy the diamond, and just accept that it costs a lot to get one.

I think you guys have a really good team but it seems like management just copies and pastes the same deadline every year. The Core Four aren't getting any younger, and with Marner's future looking a bit uncertain, it's past time to take a big swing.

You mean like Tampa threw a draft class at Tanner Jeanote?

look I believe EVERYTHING should be on the table, and when I say everything I mean EVERYTHING.

EVERY pick from now until about 2032.

EVERY prospect

EVERY young player, and yes that includes Knies if somebody wants to make a godfather offer, but he looks like he's going to score 30 baring injury so that would be tough but he shouldn't be off the table.

NOTHING short of Matthews should be off the table because the east is weaker then It's been since about 2015 even Florida doesn't look the same.

Everybody outside Washington is weaker, yes that includes your Bolts, I know you probably don't want to hear that but I feel It's true.

So I see this as the time to strike.

That being said that doesn't mean you just fire an entire draft class into the sun we saw Tampa do that, it very VERY did NOT work.

The Leafs need a #3 center and a top 9 winger.

For Example Yanni Groude and Kyle Palmeri.

Neither of those players, are going to cost you Cowan, they shouldn't cost you Minten and they probably don't cost you a 1st because they are both rentals.

If you added them both your top 9 becomes

Knies Matthews Marner

McMann Tavares Nylander

Domi Groude Palmeri

to me that's a good enough top 9 to compete with anybody and like I said it definitely wouldn't cost you Cowan, very likely doesn't cost you Minten and may not cost you a 1st, I don't think Palmeri gets a 1st, Groude might because he can play center and he's won.

On the other hand if It's a guy that's got term and/or is young enough then you absolutely put Cowan, Minten, a 1st, possibly an entire draft class on the table.

For example there was talk of Mason Mctavish being available earlier this season, I never believed it but if he were then you absolutely put Cowan and Minten, and future 1sts on the table because Mctavish is 21, maybe 22 and he can grow into your future #2 center, possibly even your #1 because Mctavish is not even 25 yet, he's not even close.

I would do everything I possibly could to avoid giving up Knies because I think you could build around Knies and Mctavish but beyond that if Mctavish were available you do whatever it takes to get it done.

It's not as simple as throw away an entire draft class that's not necessary, It's why I don't like the edit to the thread title because It's not about a whimper VS all in.

It's going as far as you NEED to, go, do whatever you NEED to do.

And that could be all in, and if it is so be it that's fine but in that case it better be ALL IN.

If you don't need to go that far then don't throw away an entire draft class because that doesn't work when you do it just to do it.

Tampa did it just to do it and it didn't work.

 

[thewave]

Marner for Crosby. That's what it's going to take.

 

[Nineteen67]

You mean like Tampa threw a draft class at Tanner Jeanote?

look Is believe EVERYTHING should be on the table, and when I say everything I mean EVERYTHING.

EVERY pick from now until about 2032.

EVERY prospect

EVERY young player, and yes that includes Knies if somebody wants to make a godfather offer, but he looks like he's going to score 30 baring injury so that would be tough but he shouldn't be off the table.

NOTHING short of Matthews should be off the table because the east is weaker then It's been since about 2015 even Florida doesn't look the same.

Everybody outside Washington is weaker, yes that includes your Bolts, I know you probably don't want to hear that but I feel It's true.

So I see this as the time to strike.

That being said that doesn't mean you just fire an entire draft class into the sun we saw Tampa do that, it very VERY did NOT work.

The Leafs need a #3 center and a top 9 winger.

For Example Yanni Groude and Kyle Palmeri.

Neither of those players, are going to cost you Cowan, they shouldn't cost you Minten and they probably don't cost you a 1st because they are both rentals.

If you added them both your top 9 becomes

Knies Matthews Marner

McMann Tavares Nylander

Domi Groude Palmeri

to me that's a good enough top 9 to compete with anybody and like I said it definitely wouldn't cost you Cowan, very likely doesn't cost you Minten and may not cost you a 1st, I don't think Palmeri gets a 1st, Groude might because he can play center and he's won.

On the other hand if It's a guy that's got term and/or is young enough then you absolutely put Cowan, Minten, a 1st, possibly an entire draft class on the table.

For example there was talk of Mason Mctavish being available earlier this season, I never believed it but if he were then you absolutely put Cowan and Minten, and future 1sts on the table because Mctavish is 21, maybe 22 and he can grow into your future #2 center, possibly even your #1 because Mctavish is not even 25 yet, he's not even close.

I would do everything I possibly could to avoid giving up Knies because I think you could build around Knies and Mctavish but beyond that if Mctavish were available you do whatever it takes to get it done.

It's not as simple as throw away an entire draft class that's not necessary, It's why I don't like the edit to the thread title because It's not about a whimper VS all in.

It's going as far as you NEED to, go, do whatever you NEED to do.

And that could be all in, and if it is so be it that's fine but in that case it better be ALL IN.

If you don't need to go that far then don't throw away an entire draft class because that doesn't work when you do it just to do it.

Tampa did it just to do it and it didn't work.

You go all in to find proven difference makers otherwise they should keep the assets

 

[boltsfan86]

You mean like Tampa threw a draft class at Tanner Jeanote?

look I believe EVERYTHING should be on the table, and when I say everything I mean EVERYTHING.

EVERY pick from now until about 2032.

EVERY prospect

EVERY young player, and yes that includes Knies if somebody wants to make a godfather offer, but he looks like he's going to score 30 baring injury so that would be tough but he shouldn't be off the table.

NOTHING short of Matthews should be off the table because the east is weaker then It's been since about 2015 even Florida doesn't look the same.

Everybody outside Washington is weaker, yes that includes your Bolts, I know you probably don't want to hear that but I feel It's true.

So I see this as the time to strike.

That being said that doesn't mean you just fire an entire draft class into the sun we saw Tampa do that, it very VERY did NOT work.

The Leafs need a #3 center and a top 9 winger.

For Example Yanni Groude and Kyle Palmeri.

Neither of those players, are going to cost you Cowan, they shouldn't cost you Minten and they probably don't cost you a 1st because they are both rentals.

If you added them both your top 9 becomes

Knies Matthews Marner

McMann Tavares Nylander

Domi Groude Palmeri

to me that's a good enough top 9 to compete with anybody and like I said it definitely wouldn't cost you Cowan, very likely doesn't cost you Minten and may not cost you a 1st, I don't think Palmeri gets a 1st, Groude might because he can play center and he's won.

On the other hand if It's a guy that's got term and/or is young enough then you absolutely put Cowan, Minten, a 1st, possibly an entire draft class on the table.

For example there was talk of Mason Mctavish being available earlier this season, I never believed it but if he were then you absolutely put Cowan and Minten, and future 1sts on the table because Mctavish is 21, maybe 22 and he can grow into your future #2 center, possibly even your #1 because Mctavish is not even 25 yet, he's not even close.

I would do everything I possibly could to avoid giving up Knies because I think you could build around Knies and Mctavish but beyond that if Mctavish were available you do whatever it takes to get it done.

It's not as simple as throw away an entire draft class that's not necessary, It's why I don't like the edit to the thread title because It's not about a whimper VS all in.

It's going as far as you NEED to, go, do whatever you NEED to do.

And that could be all in, and if it is so be it that's fine but in that case it better be ALL IN.

If you don't need to go that far then don't throw away an entire draft class because that doesn't work when you do it just to do it.

Tampa did it just to do it and it didn't work.

I actually had typed out "for every Brandon Hagel trade, there's a Tanner Jeannot trade, but deleted it. I know that move was really bad, but Brisebois also threw huge swaths of prospects and picks to land Coleman, Goodrow, Paul, and Hagel, and the team is better for it. Also people speculate they threw extra picks to get rid of Cal Foote in the Jeannot deal before the Team Canada scandal came out, but either way I sleep just fine at night knowing the GM did his job and took a swing to try and improve the team while the window was open. I'm not saying the Leafs need to trade a draft class but rather pool assets to get a big name instead of a ton of depth guys.

I'm fine with Brisebois making risky deals because his track record is ultimately very good and you don't need to hit on every single one of them if you happen to get a Brandon Hagel or someone along those lines that makes up for it.

 

[Its not your fault]

I'd be all-in without the slightest hesitation.

I don't get why everyone is so desperate for a #2C, though. Tavares more than fills that for this season, and we have players in the system that can be a good 3 and 4. I don't think C is a significant problem.

I'd be aiming for a winger who can also play C as an insurance move. Someone like Granlund would be perfect.

And I'd be trying to find a top pair defenceman, preferable someone with term who can stabilise Rielly a bit. This is the best the blueline has ever looked in this era. But adding a top guy to pair with Mo would make it one of the best in the league.

Feel this is correct probably want to add at least a 20 point hitting 4th line forward as well if possible.

 

[Sypher04]

I'd be all-in without the slightest hesitation.

I don't get why everyone is so desperate for a #2C, though. Tavares more than fills that for this season, and we have players in the system that can be a good 3 and 4. I don't think C is a significant problem.

I'd be aiming for a winger who can also play C as an insurance move. Someone like Granlund would be perfect.

And I'd be trying to find a top pair defenceman, preferable someone with term who can stabilise Rielly a bit. This is the best the blueline has ever looked in this era. But adding a top guy to pair with Mo would make it one of the best in the league.

I disagree.

A top pairing RHD isn’t really feasible within the cap and 3C is the bigger need.

I do think acquiring a new partner for Rielly makes sense as well if we want to keep Tanev and McCabe together, which we do, but aiming for a top pairing RHD isn’t at all likely

 

[ULF_55]

I'm still bummed and a bit angry that ROR didn't want to stay here. I figured that he would be a long term piece. But your point still stands. Too many picks have been sent out for players that come and go, and it's starting to show.

I'm fine going all-in at the deadline. But the players they bring in had better not just be on their last legs or players that don't move the needle like Laughton.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Laughton would really help us but not at expense of a 1st in 2025 and/or Minten .. Cowan straight up for Laughton yes .. Cowan may develop pro speed over da years but he may flop too