Holy Cross may join Hockey East and play at DCU Center

[john03]

Lowell fills their barn. Smaller city. Averaging more than North Dakota is unlikely they fill their 11500 rink but the next spots are up for grabs Wiscy was #3 last year despite being horrible and Minnesota should stay at 2 despite also being bad right now.

So lets just say that top 5 NCAA attendance is very very doable.

Lot of people live near Worcester 18 home games a year against big name college hockey opponents and cheap tickets and free tickets to not only HC students but Worcester State, WPI, Clark, Assumption and I think they could average over 10k. Make a Frozen Four and it could be filled.

Enrollment for UMass Lowell is 17,500 compared to 2,900 for Holy Cross. Tsongas has a seating capacity of 6,500 compared to 14,800 for the DCU making Tsongas a much better environment for college hockey. DCU is cavernous for hockey, especially if it's more than 1/2 empty.

I'm sorry, but students from Worcester State, WPI, Clark, and Assumption aren't going to care about Holy Cross hockey, at least not enough to make a difference.

Holy Cross can't sell out a current capacity of 1,400 and going to Hockey East isn't going to put them in the top 5 in the NCAA. The attendance for Holy Cross football averages about 6,500, which would barely makes the top 5 for NCAA Hockey. Hockey is not going to come close to the top 5.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Enrollment for UMass Lowell is 17,500 compared to 2,900 for Holy Cross. Tsongas has a seating capacity of 6,500 compared to 14,800 for the DCU making Tsongas a much better environment for college hockey. DCU is cavernous for hockey, especially if it's more than 1/2 empty.

I'm sorry, but students from Worcester State, WPI, Clark, and Assumption aren't going to care about Holy Cross hockey, at least not enough to make a difference.

Holy Cross can't sell out a current capacity of 1,400 and going to Hockey East isn't going to put them in the top 5 in the NCAA. The attendance for Holy Cross football averages about 6,500, which would barely makes the top 5 for NCAA Hockey. Hockey is not going to come close to the top 5.

See, I disagree entirely I already addressed the enrollment by saying give all local college kids free access to Hockey East hockey. They don't need to be HC students to enjoy a night out downtown and a high end college hockey game. HC regardless of being a small school has a huge endowment that dwarfs the flagship state schools that are in the league probably bigger than Maine UNH and UVM combined.

Do you have any clue how many people live much closer to DCU than other Hockey East barns like Conte, Agganis, Tsongas??? They don't even need people to be HC fans fans of other teams would go.


Chosing AHL over Hockey East is fine. ECHL hockey is not good its not AA hockey very few players make it the AHL isn't even that good. Just a shame they would be a fabulous replacement for Notre Dame identical academics and ideal geographic location.

 

[john03]

See, I disagree entirely I already addressed the enrollment by saying give all local college kids free access to Hockey East hockey. They don't need to be HC students to enjoy a night out downtown and a high end college hockey game. HC regardless of being a small school has a huge endowment that dwarfs the flagship state schools that are in the league probably bigger than Maine UNH and UVM combined.

Do you have any clue how many people live much closer to DCU than other Hockey East barns like Conte, Agganis, Tsongas??? They don't even need people to be HC fans fans of other teams would go.


Chosing AHL over Hockey East is fine. ECHL hockey is not good its not AA hockey very few players make it the AHL isn't even that good. Just a shame they would be a fabulous replacement for Notre Dame identical academics and ideal geographic location.

Last time I checked, Agganis is in Boston, which has a slightly higher population than Worcester, where the DCU is located. Lowell's population isn't too shabby compared to Worcester's population either.

And what does endowment have to do with attendance? See Harvard that ranked 37th in NCAA attendance last. Is it any coincidence that HC is in the process of a huge athletic facility upgrade and a new/better hockey arena wasn't included??

I think that the attendance would be better if they have a 4,000-6,000 seat area on campus which would create a more intimate and better setting.

Also, look at the Holy Cross basketball attendance with an on-campus area... not too good.

I remain skeptical that HC would ever average above 11,000 to get #1 (your original assertion) or even above 6,000 (top 5)... The Worcester Sharks never got above 5,000 paid attendance, not to mention the number of actual attendance. HC hosted Merrimack in 2014 and Northeastern in 2013 and the attendance numbers were 990 & 801.

I think you're over estimating the excitement that would be generated in Worcester by the move to the Hockey East at the DCU. Have you seen the attendance numbers for the NCAA tournaments lately?

I guess we can check back after the 10/15 & 10/22 games against Providence and BC, although I would think the attendance of a couple one-off games would be better than a full season.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Last time I checked, Agganis is in Boston, which has a slightly higher population than Worcester, where the DCU is located. Lowell's population isn't too shabby compared to Worcester's population either.

And what does endowment have to do with attendance? See Harvard that ranked 37th in NCAA attendance last. Is it any coincidence that HC is in the process of a huge athletic facility upgrade and a new/better hockey arena wasn't included??

I think that the attendance would be better if they have a 4,000-6,000 seat area on campus which would create a more intimate and better setting.

Also, look at the Holy Cross basketball attendance with an on-campus area... not too good.

I remain skeptical that HC would ever average above 11,000 to get #1 (your original assertion) or even above 6,000 (top 5)... The Worcester Sharks never got above 5,000 paid attendance, not to mention the number of actual attendance. HC hosted Merrimack in 2014 and Northeastern in 2013 and the attendance numbers were 990 & 801.

I think you're over estimating the excitement that would be generated in Worcester by the move to the Hockey East at the DCU. Have you seen the attendance numbers for the NCAA tournaments lately?

I guess we can check back after the 10/15 & 10/22 games against Providence and BC, although I would think the attendance of a couple one-off games would be better than a full season.

Well a true representation would be if the PC game was in Worcester last year. PC-HC was banner night. Obviously expensive and sold out Schneider is tiny. So if they played @HC the next week or week prior to the banner game being against someone else it would have drawn more interest.

I will be at Boston College 10/22 to watch them play Syracuse in football that day thats not good timing either going head to head with a Habs Bruins game and BC football at home.


You have to think how many fans Providence College would have drawn in the Dunk last year off the National Championship if the Providence Bruins had left and there was no pro hockey. Probably 8-10k for certain games. 5k average.


Hockey East is popular and people do seriously show up around here when the home team is good and they play a big time opponent. But this isn't North Dakota with nothing else going on.


Holy Cross could do what UML and PC did and commit themselves to proven USHL recruits they'd attract good recruits probably some draft picks and be upper half. Plenty of people would pack the minivan and take the family if they were legit b/c doing that for the Boston Bruins costs 10x more. If the team was good.


Just a Hockey East fan who thinks they would be a good fit.

 

[RoughEmUp]

Love the enthusiasm, BGB, but no. For reference, see recent attendance at the Beanpot. 4 schools with loong histories in a great city with all kinds of restaurants and public transportation. About one billion college students within a few T stops. Local and national press coverage. Games are played on Mondays in February against little competition.

And yet...Garden hovers from nearly empty to maybe 2/3 full at peak. I bought Tix on the street last year for $10 each.

I wish it were different, but there are simply not that many college hockey fans.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Love the enthusiasm, BGB, but no. For reference, see recent attendance at the Beanpot. 4 schools with loong histories in a great city with all kinds of restaurants and public transportation. About one billion college students within a few T stops. Local and national press coverage. Games are played on Mondays in February against little competition.

And yet...Garden hovers from nearly empty to maybe 2/3 full at peak. I bought Tix on the street last year for $10 each.

I wish it were different, but there are simply not that many college hockey fans.

I think the Grizz OT winner title game was about 90% full 2 years ago.

If there is another NHL lockout and NU is good and BC and BU still are the Beanpot will sell out and be a somewhat tough ticket.

Holy Cross would be another UML, MC, PC just a better closer opponent than UConn or Umass where interest is non existent. Get to fill an AHL void. Good Hockey East is a better product than AHL hence why UML does way better than the Lockmonsters/Devils. Huge percentage of the Boston metro area can get to DCU easier than Agganis/Conte and there is an AHL void to fill.

But I guess there isn't room for an ECHL team and a full college slate. Shame.

 

[john03]

Hockey East is popular and people do seriously show up around here when the home team is good and they play a big time opponent. But this isn't North Dakota with nothing else going on.


Holy Cross could do what UML and PC did and commit themselves to proven USHL recruits they'd attract good recruits probably some draft picks and be upper half. Plenty of people would pack the minivan and take the family if they were legit b/c doing that for the Boston Bruins costs 10x more. If the team was good.


Just a Hockey East fan who thinks they would be a good fit.

I do think HC would be a good fit, if they had a better on campus arena. I just think that the attendance projections I this thread for the DCU are overrated. Just look at the football and basketball attendance in the 80's and 90's. For some reason, HC decided that sports weren't a priority and essentially "downgraded" their athletic programs.

As far as HE being popular and people showing up... check the attendance for the NCAA tournament last year in Worcester with 2 HE teams and Harvard, 6682 for the first night and 4572 for the finals. Not a strong turnout... There is a reason that 2 AHL teams left... poor attendance.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

I do think HC would be a good fit, if they had a better on campus arena. I just think that the attendance projections I this thread for the DCU are overrated. Just look at the football and basketball attendance in the 80's and 90's. For some reason, HC decided that sports weren't a priority and essentially "downgraded" their athletic programs.

As far as HE being popular and people showing up... check the attendance for the NCAA tournament last year in Worcester with 2 HE teams and Harvard, 6682 for the first night and 4572 for the finals. Not a strong turnout... There is a reason that 2 AHL teams left... poor attendance.

Lowell wouldn't be able to make the tournament every year if there wasn't an old AHL arena they can use and they had a small local rink like Merrimack has. Small rink works for PC because the Bruins AHL affiliate is the most popular hockey team in town.


I think the Ivy's will break away from the ECAC sooner or later now that the Big Ten has created their own. Got to imagine they want 2 weekends a year against each other vs 1. Holy Cross might get their step up when that happens. Get the DCU if/when ECHL fails and see if they can find a better league.


HC would have similar though not quite as good as PC if they had joined the Big East as a charter member for basketball in the 70s when offered. Might be some bad crowds here and there but the Centrum/DCU would be filled vs Cuse/Nova/Uconn. Would be due to the city and local area enjoying big time sports not the students/alums not enough of them. Maybe they'd be like Uconn or St Johns and play games against lesser teams on campus and only use DCU for bigger opponents.

 

[Woo Hockey]

There is a reason that 2 AHL teams left... poor attendance.

Not true.

IceCats were bought by the St. Louis Blues and we're moved to Peoria so they could have an AHL team closer, making callups taking only a few hours at most if they needed to call someone up, instead of waiting a day or two for them to fly there.

The Worcester Sharks left for California like the LA Kings, Anaheim Ducks, Calgary Flames, and the Edmonton Oilers did with their AHL teams. It was all in one off season and these moves had absolutely nothing to do with attendance, it was all for having the AHL team closer for callups. You could even make the argument that they can have a better eye on their prospects too.

Both teams had similar attendance rates to other AHL teams which everyone seems to get wrong when this argument gets brought up. NHL teams do not care about attendance rates or any business for the AHL just as long as their breaking even which they did in Worcester. They care about developing and having decnet players to call up when needed.

 

[john03]

Not true.

IceCats were bought by the St. Louis Blues and we're moved to Peoria so they could have an AHL team closer, making callups taking only a few hours at most if they needed to call someone up, instead of waiting a day or two for them to fly there.

The Worcester Sharks left for California like the LA Kings, Anaheim Ducks, Calgary Flames, and the Edmonton Oilers did with their AHL teams. It was all in one off season and these moves had absolutely nothing to do with attendance, it was all for having the AHL team closer for callups. You could even make the argument that they can have a better eye on their prospects too.

Both teams had similar attendance rates to other AHL teams which everyone seems to get wrong when this argument gets brought up. NHL teams do not care about attendance rates or any business for the AHL just as long as their breaking even which they did in Worcester. They care about developing and having decnet players to call up when needed.

Worcester was consistently in the bottom 25% of attendance, so I wouldn't say that there were similar attendance rates... While geography may have contributed to the Ice Cats and Sharks moving, if Worcester was in the top 25% in attendance they would have an AHL team the way that franchises move around.

I know that making money isn't necessarily the driving force in the AHL, but if Worcester was generating a lot of income, there would AHL franchises lining up to get into Worcester. Take a look at Hershey as an example.... multiple changes in NHL affiliations, but Hershey always had and will have a team...

So you can say that attendance is not a factor, but it is certainly is a factor. See below from an article in the T&G. Not a ringing endorsement for Worcester as a hockey market...

http://www.telegram.com/article/20150809/SPORTS/150809351

“According to attendance numbers released by the Sharks, they averaged 3,847 fans at the DCU Center last season, the second fewest in their nine seasons in Worcester and 23rd among the AHL’s 30 teams last year.

Ms. Dunn said those numbers reflected paid attendance, but included season ticket holders and others who didn’t always show up. Counting only what she called, ‘bodies through the door,’ Ms. Dunn said the Sharks actually averaged fewer than 2,300 fans a game last season.

‘I report bodies through the door because that’s what counts to me,’ Ms. Dunn said, ‘feet on the street and how many sodas I was able to sell. If they had a ticket and they didn’t come, they (the Sharks) have ticket revenue, but I don’t have anything because they didn’t come through my door.’

According to Ms. Dunn’s ‘bodies through the door’ figures, the Sharks’ best attendance year in Worcester fell short of the worst attendance year for their AH predecessor at the DCU Center, the IceCats.â€

 

[BigGoalBrad]

Right.... so a perfect place to put high level college hockey. Would be like MC and PC but MC is only about 10 miles from Lowell and I'd guess college hockey fans a bit north of them would drive to Durham if they wanted to go to a college game before Lawlor. PC is located where the Boston Bruins prospects play. Holy Cross is located somewhere smack dab in the geographical footprint and hotbed while having a huge amount of people close by in the immediate area for whom driving to another Hockey East arena is a royal pain in the butt. In Hockey East they'd recruit pretty well.

 

[Woo Hockey]

Worcester was consistently in the bottom 25% of attendance, so I wouldn't say that there were similar attendance rates... While geography may have contributed to the Ice Cats and Sharks moving, if Worcester was in the top 25% in attendance they would have an AHL team the way that franchises move around.

I know that making money isn't necessarily the driving force in the AHL, but if Worcester was generating a lot of income, there would AHL franchises lining up to get into Worcester. Take a look at Hershey as an example.... multiple changes in NHL affiliations, but Hershey always had and will have a team...

So you can say that attendance is not a factor, but it is certainly is a factor. See below from an article in the T&G. Not a ringing endorsement for Worcester as a hockey market...

http://www.telegram.com/article/20150809/SPORTS/150809351

“According to attendance numbers released by the Sharks, they averaged 3,847 fans at the DCU Center last season, the second fewest in their nine seasons in Worcester and 23rd among the AHL’s 30 teams last year.

Ms. Dunn said those numbers reflected paid attendance, but included season ticket holders and others who didn’t always show up. Counting only what she called, ‘bodies through the door,’ Ms. Dunn said the Sharks actually averaged fewer than 2,300 fans a game last season.

‘I report bodies through the door because that’s what counts to me,’ Ms. Dunn said, ‘feet on the street and how many sodas I was able to sell. If they had a ticket and they didn’t come, they (the Sharks) have ticket revenue, but I don’t have anything because they didn’t come through my door.’

According to Ms. Dunn’s ‘bodies through the door’ figures, the Sharks’ best attendance year in Worcester fell short of the worst attendance year for their AHL predecessor at the DCU Center, the IceCats.â€

In the AHL, attendance isn't a factor in where teams end up and whether or not the team stays and even if Worcester was #1 you wouldn't be see teams lining up to get their team in Worcester unless it was Providence or another team in the North East, even though most of the AHL teams in the North East are for the most part, close as they're going to get to their NHL affiliate.

Teams that are in the upper 50% range of attendance get moved and don't get replaced with an AHL team, Manchester didn't get a replacement AHL team and got switched with the LA Kings ECHL affiliate, which was also owned by the LA Kings.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=AHL1941&sid=2015

Hershey has had AHL hockey and the team's stayed there despite several affiliation changes because they're locally owned. The Worcester Sharks were owned by their NHL affiliate and the IceCats were owned by Roy Boe (who owned the NY Islanders, Jets, and the Bridgeport Sound Tigers) and eventually sold the team to the NHL affiliate of the team. The huge difference when you have a local owner as opposed to someone who lives in a different state is that a local owner is involved in the team and has dedication to making the team work. When you don't live in the same state as the team you own you're not going to care how the team is operated because there's no way of you effectively keeping an eye on it.

 

[john03]

Right.... so a perfect place to put high level college hockey. Would be like MC and PC but MC is only about 10 miles from Lowell and I'd guess college hockey fans a bit north of them would drive to Durham if they wanted to go to a college game before Lawlor. PC is located where the Boston Bruins prospects play. Holy Cross is located somewhere smack dab in the geographical footprint and hotbed while having a huge amount of people close by in the immediate area for whom driving to another Hockey East arena is a royal pain in the butt. In Hockey East they'd recruit pretty well.

Agreed.. I think that HC would fair pretty well in the Hockey East, especially with an on-campus rink. I think that the attendance would be right on par with MC or PC, probably maxing out at about a 3K average.

I just doubt that they would crack the top 5 in NCAA attendance...

 

[john03]

In the AHL, attendance isn't a factor in where teams end up and whether or not the team stays and even if Worcester was #1 you wouldn't be see teams lining up to get their team in Worcester unless it was Providence or another team in the North East, even though most of the AHL teams in the North East are for the most part, close as they're going to get to their NHL affiliate.

Teams that are in the upper 50% range of attendance get moved and don't get replaced with an AHL team, Manchester didn't get a replacement AHL team and got switched with the LA Kings ECHL affiliate, which was also owned by the LA Kings.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph_season.php?lid=AHL1941&sid=2015

Hershey has had AHL hockey and the team's stayed there despite several affiliation changes because they're locally owned. The Worcester Sharks were owned by their NHL affiliate and the IceCats were owned by Roy Boe (who owned the NY Islanders, Jets, and the Bridgeport Sound Tigers) and eventually sold the team to the NHL affiliate of the team. The huge difference when you have a local owner as opposed to someone who lives in a different state is that a local owner is involved in the team and has dedication to making the team work. When you don't live in the same state as the team you own you're not going to care how the team is operated because there's no way of you effectively keeping an eye on it.

We've obviously got off topic from the thread... but attendance for Manchester had decreased over the last several years.... And the reason that there is no AHL team is because, as you point out, the Kings owned both teams and simply switched leagues. Manchester was not going to get a AHL team with an ECHL team already there. Not really seeing any teams that were tops in attendance that were moved

I'm sorry, but if Worcester was consistently #1 in attendance, they would have an AHL team no matter what.... There are obviously reasons to keep affiliates closer to the NHL club, but there are enough teams on the East Coast that would gladly move to Worcester is it was #1 in attendance and meet the objective of a closer affiliate while making a tidy profit too...

And my original comment/point was that HC will never lead the NCAA in average attendance... North Dakota averages more that 11,000 and if anyone thinks HC will surpass that figure simply doesn't have a clue...

 

[Bruins1233]

I don't think we need to worry about Holy Cross not being able to Compete with Hockey East, they scored 3 goals on Niagara last night, in 33 seconds.

 

[BigBadBruin8]

Unfortunately this is moot (for now) as HEA ADs have decided not to add anyone to the conference at the current time.

 

[Bruins1233]

Unfortunately this is moot (for now) as HEA ADs have decided not to add anyone to the conference at the current time.

Maybe they are holding out for Bentley's new stadium, Worcester is quite the road trip for BC/BU and Northeastern

 

[Fenway]

Maybe they are holding out for Bentley's new stadium, Worcester is quite the road trip for BC/BU and Northeastern

You are not far off when you suggest that. The Bentley rink would be on a par with Merrimack so it is in play.

The team Hockey East wants is Quinnipiac but I can't see them leaving the ECAC.

 

[BigGoalBrad]

You are not far off when you suggest that. The Bentley rink would be on a par with Merrimack so it is in play.

The team Hockey East wants is Quinnipiac but I can't see them leaving the ECAC.

Hard to see what happens to QU if they were in Hockey East and came back down to earth and were just an average team.


Bentley would be great but the new arena isn't planned to be anything special. Good location close to the other area teams people would go to the away game at Bentley the other night if they were busy and couldn't go to the home game Fri/Sat. Hockey East has a 4k capacity minimum. The new Bentley arena is supposed to be smaller than Lawlor. I sort of think Bentley needs to build something that feels more like an arena than a nicer/newer rink like Ryan to drum up some enthusiasm. I'd let them in if its over 3k and doesn't feel like a high school rink (no folding bleachers) nice bar somewhere etc etc. Some of the ISL schools have super nice hockey rinks that are like that even if they don't have big seating areas.

Could NEVER send Hockey East schools to play conference games at Ryan. I've played there plenty before/after Bentley games the teams have no room goalies need to change in the halls etc etc. It used to be super ghetto changing in the lobby with tons of people around because Bentley had a game after and they took all your crap out of the locker rooms while you were on the ice.

 

[BigBadBruin8]

Maybe they are holding out for Bentley's new stadium, Worcester is quite the road trip for BC/BU and Northeastern

Right, because Orono, Maine is around the corner....

Worcester is a quick trip from Boston, quicker than other locations in HEA.

You are not far off when you suggest that. The Bentley rink would be on a par with Merrimack so it is in play.

The team Hockey East wants is Quinnipiac but I can't see them leaving the ECAC.

I don't think Bentley is going to be the team that takes spot #12. Holy Cross is still probably in the lead, it's just up to the other HEA schools to decide on replacing ND.

Quinnipiac has no desire or need to leave the ECAC. They won't make the move.

 

[Bruins1233]

If anyone was wondering HC vs PC drew 2,142 people.
Which is 153% their on campus rink capacity but very empty at the DCU Center.

 

[john03]

If anyone was wondering HC vs PC drew 2,142 people.
Which is 153% their on campus rink capacity but very empty at the DCU Center.

I would not be surprised if that was paid tickets and not actual attendance too. I tried to buy tickets yesterday in sections 107, 108, or 109 and there were only a few single tickets available. At the game, those sections were probably 25% full. The atmosphere was relatively quiet there. Had the game been at Hart Center, it would have been a much louder and better atmosphere. I still think an on campus rink with 4-6K seats would be much better than the DCU.