Holland Extended 4 Years

[Actual Thought*]

I would be happy if they would get players that they know would improve the team. Instead of signing players they already know don't.

Call me crazy.

What data besides a stat sheet do you use to determine which players make the team better? What do you know about the chemistry of the team? Personalities of players? What roles do you have in mind for what players and in what time frame? What progress do you see based on your everyday observation and personal interaction with your players? What is the developmental status of the prospects? How does their maturity level fit into the team? How does their personality fit in? What is their dedication level both on and off the ice? Do they understand how to conduct themselves as NHL players? If so do they have the talent to fill a role and what role?

There is much more to think about than will I make headlines with a blockbuster trade. Besides I don't see many blockbuster trades happening anywhere around the league. I don't see many huge impact UFAs either. You act as if Holland has tons of killer deals on the table every day but he is dumb so he tells his staff nice work but no.

You are going to look pretty silly as Holland's cards play out.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I wouldn't call letting Q and Cleary go and signing Carle in their place being aggressive, and I'm not sure why that would lead to us missing the playoffs. I think we make the playoffs either way, but we're a better team and organization if we pare off Q/Cleary/etc., promote as needed from within and/or make a harder push for a real upgrade in free agency.

Maybe the staff isn't as enamored with Carle as others? Maybe they feel they have another player that can fill that role? Maybe they know more than us about the character of players and roles that they want filled behind the scenes. These aren't stupid men making these decisions and I don't think they are conspiring to keep the team down.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

What data besides a stat sheet do you use to determine which players make the team better? What do you know about the chemistry of the team? Personalities of players? What roles do you have in mind for what players and in what time frame? What progress do you see based on your everyday observation and personal interaction with your players? What is the developmental status of the prospects? How does their maturity level fit into the team? How does their personality fit in? What is their dedication level both on and off the ice? Do they understand how to conduct themselves as NHL players? If so do they have the talent to fill a role and what role?

There is much more to think about than will I make headlines with a blockbuster trade. Besides I don't see many blockbuster trades happening anywhere around the league. I don't see many huge impact UFAs either. You act as if Holland has tons of killer deals on the table every day but he is dumb so he tells his staff nice work but no.

You are going to look pretty silly as Holland's cards play out.

Dan Cleary by all accounts doesn't provide a single positive attribute to the team at this point.

You are handwaving away better alternatives because "well maybe they wouldn't work out." Yet you continue to ignore the potential issues that will potentially (and most likely) arise from re-signing guys like Quincey and Cleary and keeping the kids from getting their due in the NHL and with more ice time.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Dan Cleary by all accounts doesn't provide a single positive attribute to the team at this point.

You are handwaving away better alternatives because "well maybe they wouldn't work out." Yet you continue to ignore the potential issues that will potentially (and most likely) arise from re-signing guys like Quincey and Cleary and keeping the kids from getting their due in the NHL and with more ice time.

Nonsense. I am handwaving the opinion that Holland doesn't have sound reasoning in his decisions based on information and knowledge that he and his staff has and we don't.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Nonsense. I am handwaving the opinion that Holland doesn't have sound reasoning in his decisions based on information and knowledge that he and his staff has and we don't.

I am about as big as a Holland honk as you will find.

With that said both Babcock and Holland could barely come up with a passable reason beyond we do these things. They didn't offer anything, Babcock went second realizing the less than warm reception Holland and the team got in terms of the news and offered some miracle U of M doctor. But they could barely keep straight faces, the Quincey one is different. I wish they had not done it, but there are points that I vehemently disagree with but can be acknowledged. Cleary's signing is indefensible, there is no acceptable reason, this is a business and the dressing room was not going to fracture from his dismissal and if it was it is time to start shipping guys. He would have been around the guys anyway in a different front office role, it stinks to high heavens there is simply no justification.

With that said, he is on the team and he loves this city and organization. I wish him the best and hope the U of M magic guy squeezes something out of him, but it was a truly dreadful decision and the fact they couldn't even muster positive comments spoke to them knowing full well how terrible it was and that to me is a huge problem and for the first time has rocked my faith in Holland. People take cheap shots at him, but this fit that narrative it was just so out of touch, it still boggles my mind over a month later.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Dan Cleary by all accounts doesn't provide a single positive attribute to the team at this point.

You are handwaving away better alternatives because "well maybe they wouldn't work out." Yet you continue to ignore the potential issues that will potentially (and most likely) arise from re-signing guys like Quincey and Cleary and keeping the kids from getting their due in the NHL and with more ice time.

By "All accounts" you mean the anti Holland contingent here. The Wings signed him to a contract. That means that a good percentage of the staff feels he has value to the team. But hey, what do they know?

 

[Mort Divine]

By "All accounts" you mean the anti Holland contingent here. The Wings signed him to a contract. That means that a good percentage of the staff feels he has value to the team. But hey, what do they know?

Not much if they think Cleary will improve the team

 

[Actual Thought*]

Not much if they think Cleary will improve the team

You are right. They just forgot everything about hockey. That makes more sense.

 

[odin1981]

This is exactly what I would like answered. There have been several passionate arguments from both sides, but nobody wants to nail down exactly what constitutes a successful season for them as a fan.

As for me, 8 playoff victories, period. Unless you've just completely blown up your team, and you're playing nothing but kids who haven't learned to shave yet, you either make the conference finals or you can't call it a successful year. There can be reasons for not achieving success (injuries, etc.), but it doesn't change the fact that less than 8 wins in the big dance is a failure.

I'd love to hear SPECIFIC thresholds for other people, preferably on both sides of the Holland argument.

A successful season to me is getting to the conference finals or better. You cannot because of many variables project past that point. Granted with the way the team is currently constructed (defensive short comings) cannot expect more than a potential second round appearance.

However one of the ever maddening things about this team is right now a good case can be made that our current third pairing is worse than a duo that will more than likely be an improvement over them (Marchenko and XO). Kindl + whoever (seems to be smith given last year) or kindl lashoff is pretty much a down grade. I am not a fan of the lineup pairings Babs often does especially the second pairing inevitability of KFQ-Dekeyser but a lineup of Kronwall-Big Rig, Dekeyser-Smith, Marchenko-XO with Lashoff as a 7th is much better than what we will see of first pairing unchanged, KFQ-Dekeyser, Kindl-Smith.

I worry that Smith will get the kindl treatment and flop due to confidence issues. And Smith beats the **** out of KFQ in the puck moving department and would have DD to cover his weaker areas. And going forward the wings will more than likely need DD and smith in there entering into there primes when Big Rig and Kronner are approaching the 33-36 age bracket. Also by playing a rookie third pairing we would start to get value on both of those players so if the organization felt they wouldn't end the way they wanted we could flip them for value (picks) from the 15-16 and going forward.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

You are right. They just forgot everything about hockey. That makes more sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

 

[Chance on Chance]

By "All accounts" you mean the anti Holland contingent here. The Wings signed him to a contract. That means that a good percentage of the staff feels he has value to the team. But hey, what do they know?

Then there's no bad contracts anywhere in the NHL. They know more then us. Clarkson contract is solid, teammates like his and the leafs staff wanted him. Your gonna look pretty sill when Holland's master plan doesn't work out

 

[Actual Thought*]

Then there's no bad contracts anywhere in the NHL. They know more then us. Clarkson contract is solid, teammates like his and the leafs staff wanted him. Your gonna look pretty sill when Holland's master plan doesn't work out

We don't know what the opening night roster will even be. However I don't see myself looking back and saying "We would have won the cup if it weren't for that Cleary contract". I see them waltzing into the playoffs and being a tough out if their best players are healthy.
I am not saying Holland is a perfect human or that the contract is a good one. I am saying that calling a guy like Holland a fool is a little over the top. I don't know what language is written into the contract. I don't know if Cleary is healthy enough to contribute. I do know that he appears to be an important "character type" that the Wings value.

 

[kdfsjljklgjfg]

Then there's no bad contracts anywhere in the NHL. They know more then us. Clarkson contract is solid, teammates like his and the leafs staff wanted him. Your gonna look pretty sill when Holland's master plan doesn't work out

You're missing the point. Not that I agree that we should have signed Cleary, but he's saying that Cleary does have some kind of value that he provides to the team, not that an informed staff signed the deal, so it's a good deal, just that they ARE getting something out of it, even if it might be disproportionate to the pay.

 

[rx7dryver]

If cleary got league minimum maybe someone could argue that his cheap contract was worth the possible upside. However, look at his body of work for the last few years, then look at his caphit. That is an atrocious contract no matter how you look at it. I have always been a supporter of holland but that deal is a fireable offense IMO.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If cleary got league minimum maybe someone could argue that his cheap contract was worth the possible upside. However, look at his body of work for the last few years, then look at his caphit. That is an atrocious contract no matter how you look at it. I have always been a supporter of holland but that deal is a fireable offense IMO.

No, the deal is a big mistake, but definitely not a fireable offense. If he had signed Dan Cleary to a David Clarkson type contract... that would be a fireable offense.

For as mind-numbingly stupid as giving Dan Cleary 2.5M this year is, the contract is done after this year. And I know the retort will be "They're just gonna re-sign him again", but there isn't a promise or a we'll take care of you along with this deal.

They weren't precluded from making moves because of Dan Cleary. They signed him after most of the dealing had already been done for the summer. Could they have been better if they signed Dany Heatley or Brad Richards? Definitely... but are those the kind of guys that are going to push them into being a contender?

I was wildly disappointed with them bringing back Quincey and Cleary... but those moves were made after the external guys they wanted were already signed.

If Dan Cleary was truly hurt and was playing hurt... and Babcock is certain that he'll come back and be better... I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. (Babcock, that is. I think Cleary is garbage.)

And seriously, if guys like Jurco and Pulkkinen are supposed to be so good, shouldn't they be able to outplay a guy who provides literally zero value like Cleary? I'm sure that is what part of Holland's thinking process is. If the kids aren't good enough to supplant Dan Cleary on this roster, they're not good for anything.

 

[Frk It]

"They're just gonna re-sign him again", but there isn't a promise or a we'll take care of you along with this deal.

None of us know the details on the terms of the unofficial, unreported "promise". If you believe the philly offer was real, and Holland made a similar "promise", that would include being brought next year.

So absolutely in the realm of possibly he'll be back.

It's not like there any kind of a threshold for "if he's this bad; then we won't bring him back".

He was awful 100% of last year. He was awful 90% of the year before. He is above any kind of objectivity. He will play here for as long as he wants, he has the front office wrapped around his finger. They can't say no to him.

 

[Actual Thought*]

No, the deal is a big mistake, but definitely not a fireable offense. If he had signed Dan Cleary to a David Clarkson type contract... that would be a fireable offense.

For as mind-numbingly stupid as giving Dan Cleary 2.5M this year is, the contract is done after this year. And I know the retort will be "They're just gonna re-sign him again", but there isn't a promise or a we'll take care of you along with this deal.

They weren't precluded from making moves because of Dan Cleary. They signed him after most of the dealing had already been done for the summer. Could they have been better if they signed Dany Heatley or Brad Richards? Definitely... but are those the kind of guys that are going to push them into being a contender?

I was wildly disappointed with them bringing back Quincey and Cleary... but those moves were made after the external guys they wanted were already signed.

If Dan Cleary was truly hurt and was playing hurt... and Babcock is certain that he'll come back and be better... I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. (Babcock, that is. I think Cleary is garbage.)

And seriously, if guys like Jurco and Pulkkinen are supposed to be so good, shouldn't they be able to outplay a guy who provides literally zero value like Cleary? I'm sure that is what part of Holland's thinking process is. If the kids aren't good enough to supplant Dan Cleary on this roster, they're not good for anything.

Holland is an idiot. Babcock is a mean guy. Cleary sucks.

 

[Chance on Chance]

We don't know what the opening night roster will even be. However I don't see myself looking back and saying "We would have won the cup if it weren't for that Cleary contract". I see them waltzing into the playoffs and being a tough out if their best players are healthy.
I am not saying Holland is a perfect human or that the contract is a good one. I am saying that calling a guy like Holland a fool is a little over the top. I don't know what language is written into the contract. I don't know if Cleary is healthy enough to contribute. I do know that he appears to be an important "character type" that the Wings value.

It more would I rather have Cleary and Quincey or Matt Moulson and Marchenko/XO. Cap apace would be nice for the deadline too. Last year with out Cleary andnmore of Nyquist and Tatar we'd probably play the penguins who we'd have abetter chance against

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Dan Cleary sucks... but he's a lunch bucket guy. He'll give you 100% of his effort all day every day. To keep myself sane about seeing him on the team, I'm gonna hope that Ken Holland is just seeing Cleary like he's Rudy.

"Goose, if you had a tenth of the heart that Clears has, you'd be MVP."

But I'm not about to crucify one of the best GMs in hockey for having a love affair with a player who will work his ass off and can potentially pass along that mindset to a young kid coming up. That even if you're not playing well, bust your ass because management sees and likes that.

I've been a Detroit sports fan since I was a kid and I've seen terrible GMs. Ken Holland is not one of them.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It more would I rather have Cleary and Quincey or Matt Moulson and Marchenko/XO. Cap apace would be nice for the deadline too. Last year with out Cleary andnmore of Nyquist and Tatar we'd probably play the penguins who we'd have abetter chance against

That is a reasonable point and I agree with you. It is really stupid that we're tying up ~$7M this season in Cleary and Quincey.

E: My only explanation for Holland doing it is that he doesn't want to toss Marchenko/XO out there to sink or swim in their first full year. That's something that the Wings have pretty much been consistent with forever. Given a choice, they're not going to lean on rookies. The only way they want Marchenko or Ouellet out there on a regular basis is if those guys outplay the players above them... or they have absolutely no choice.

 

[Frk It]

Dan Cleary sucks... but he's a lunch bucket guy. He'll give you 100% of his effort all day every day. To keep myself sane about seeing him on the team, I'm gonna hope that Ken Holland is just seeing Cleary like he's Rudy.

"Goose, if you had a tenth of the heart that Clears has, you'd be MVP."

But I'm not about to crucify one of the best GMs in hockey for having a love affair with a player who will work his ass off and can potentially pass along that mindset to a young kid coming up. That even if you're not playing well, bust your ass because management sees and likes that.

I've been a Detroit sports fan since I was a kid and I've seen terrible GMs. Ken Holland is not one of them.

That has a price though. And I don't think 1.5 million dollars and a roster spot justifies those intangibles.

You could bring him in for pre-season, give him a front office job, or find ways to keep him involves so he can help relay that to the up and coming generation.

Also I'm pretty sure those qualities are already represented in abundance by Datsyuk, Zetterberg , and Kronwall. Enough so to where I don't feel Cleary is necessary.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That has a price though. And I don't think 1.5 million dollars and a roster spot justifies those intangibles.

You could bring him in for pre-season, give him a front office job, or find ways to keep him involves so he can help relay that to the up and coming generation.

Also I'm pretty sure those qualities are already represented in abundance by Datsyuk, Zetterberg , and Kronwall. Enough so to where I don't feel Cleary is necessary.

I agree with you on this. I hate the signing. I think it is a mistake for him to have signed Cleary to it. I was sick to my stomach coming on here and seeing the story "Cleary signs with Red Wings".

However, I'm not about to call for Holland's job for making a decision that I don't agree with.

 

[odin1981]

I agree that trying to spin everything like there is a logical reason behind it is a fool's errand.

However, there has been an equal amount of OMG FIRE HOLLAND NOW reactions from what seems like the majority of the board. Ken Holland has made many mistakes these last couple years as the GM. However, whenever he does anything, everyone is calling for his head and acting like he's some moron who has no clue what he's doing.

He has made very questionable personnel decisions, but he's also stocked the cupboard to have one of the top prospect pools in hockey while never missing the playoffs.

I don't think you will find many even attempting to criticize his drafting and development. You can't. But given the past 4-5 years you can give criticism to his ufa signings and absolute lack of trying to trade anything on this roster. The UFA signings sans alfie have been horrid so one can question nhl scouting. And the inability to make a deal with a cap floor team to grab just a 5-7th rounder for whatever required wasted bag of flesh to your liking is most of what is harped upon.

Though we are about to enter a time period where the biggest next critique is going to come online. The horrid management of assets. Because over the next two years we have quite a few assets reaching to waiver wire to be sent down basis. And one can reason with the absolute frequency are coaches on either ahl or nhl level get snatched up you can bet that the players who get shipped to waiver will get snatched up (not ferraro or callahan 4th line scrubs) but whoever of XO, Sproul, Marchenko, Backman, and Nick Jensen for defense and Pulks on offense. Yet we continue to have dead weight on the roster when the spots can be filled by players who can be assets if we choose not to hold unto them.

 

[Winger98]

Maybe the staff isn't as enamored with Carle as others? Maybe they feel they have another player that can fill that role? Maybe they know more than us about the character of players and roles that they want filled behind the scenes. These aren't stupid men making these decisions and I don't think they are conspiring to keep the team down.

I wasn't as enamored with Carle, either. He was, and is, still an upgrade over Quincey, Kindl, and Lashoff. Arguably Smith, unless Smith progresses this season.

They don't have to be stupid, or trying to sink the club, for some of their decisions to be wrong. Blowing around $10m last year on guys we either benched or shipped outright to GR showed that Holland&Co. clearly screwed up somewhere down the line in their work. They aren't infallible, and I think signing Cleary and Quincey is something that can definitely be questioned.

 

[Actual Thought*]

I wasn't as enamored with Carle, either. He was, and is, still an upgrade over Quincey, Kindl, and Lashoff. Arguably Smith, unless Smith progresses this season.

They don't have to be stupid, or trying to sink the club, for some of their decisions to be wrong. Blowing around $10m last year on guys we either benched or shipped outright to GR showed that Holland&Co. clearly screwed up somewhere down the line in their work. They aren't infallible, and I think signing Cleary and Quincey is something that can definitely be questioned.

Question away. I don't think you will find any opposition here.