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HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

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TheDevilMadeMe said:
I think Roach getting votes as a top 2 goalie from 2 of 10 managers (they weren't called general managers then, just managers) is somewhat significant.
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Somewhat, but not very. 7 voters agreed that Worters was the best in the league, based on the eye test. I can see Hainsworth's argument, even if it was misguided as illustrated in the research thread, based on wins and GAA. Connell was right up there that season too, so it's not a shock to see him show up on a minority of ballots. Which leaves us with the ever-present "what are you smoking?" votes for Roach. Even in the face of an overwhelming eye test and clear stats, there's always a certain amount of that, like Ray Whitney getting Selke votes.

Does anyone know who selected the WCHL/WCL All Stars? Winkler's record isn't particularly impressive there given the relatively weak competition among goalies.

Winkler won a lot of games for the Edmonton Eskimos in the WCHL, but he was playing behind the best defenseman (Bullet Joe Simpson) and best forward (Duke Keats) in the league, both of who are in the HHOF mostly for their WCHL exploits.
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That's valuable info.
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Winkler won a lot of games for the Edmonton Eskimos in the WCHL, but he was playing behind the best defenseman (Bullet Joe Simpson) and best forward (Duke Keats) in the league, both of who are in the HHOF mostly for their WCHL exploits.
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I don't think either of them are particularly famous for lowering their team's GAA, though.
 
Are we allowed in either Round 1 or Round 2 to rank two players at the same spot if we cannot decide who is better?

For example:
1. Player A
2. Player B/Player C
4. Player D

With Player B and C both getting the same amount of points, which would be an average of the points awarded to the 2nd and 3rd spots.


EDIT: I thought of this after the "almost crisis" with the Top 70 list. IMO the toughest choice is between Orr and Howe for the #2 spot...Gretzky is my clear #1 and Lemieux my clear #4...this might be an instance where I would rank Orr and Howe tied...especially with how difficult they are to compare, it's really not about the players it's peak vs. longevity.
 
I'll start putting together a table of All-Star voting records for all the goaltenders selected in the last ATD (Top 5 finishes only, with a minimum of 2 votes).

If anyone already has this info or wants to help please let me know.
 
Goaltender NHL All-Star Voting Top 5 Finishes
(Thanks to BBS for a lot of this data)
[table="css=transp;head"]Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | Total
Terry Sawchuk | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 14
Glen Hall | 7 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 13
Martin Brodeur | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 12
Tony Esposito | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 5 | 12
Jacques Plante | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 11
Patrick Roy | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 10
Tiny Thompson | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 10
Ed Belfour | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 9
Dominik Hasek | 6 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 8
Frank Brimsek | 2 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8
Turk Broda | 2 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 8
Bill Durnan | 6 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 7
Ken Dryden | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 7
Bernie Parent | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 7
Gump Worsley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 7
Johnny Bower | 1 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 7
Harry Lumley | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 6
Roy Worters | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 6
Ed Giacomin | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5
Tom Barrasso | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 5
Pete Peeters | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 5
Chuck Rayner | 0 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 5
Roberto Luongo | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 5
Chico Resch | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 5
Don Edwards | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5
Andy Moog | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Charlie Gardiner | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4
Grant Fuhr | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 4
Dave Kerr | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 4
Mike Liut | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 4
Henrik Lundqvist | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4
Miikka Kiprusoff | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 4
Rogie Vachon | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 4
Charlie Hodge | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 4
Roger Crozier | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3
Evgeni Nabokov | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3
Ron Hextall | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3
Marty Turco | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3
Mike Vernon | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3
George Hainsworth | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3
Curtis Joseph | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Tim Thomas | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
John Vanbiesbrouck | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
Johnny Mowers | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2
John Ross Roach | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2
Billy Smith | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2
Lorne Chabot | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2
Al Rollins | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Gerry Cheevers | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Mike Richter | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Olaf Kolzig | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Normie Smith | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Ryan Miller | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Chris Osgood | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Alec Connell | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1

[/table]

*One of Roy Worters finishes that is listed as a 4th could be a 3rd due to a discrepancy in the results for 1934-35.
 
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Hawkey Town 18 said:
Goaltender NHL All-Star Voting Top 5 Finishes
(Thanks to BBS for a lot of this data)
[table="css=transp;head"]Player | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | Total
Terry Sawchuk | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 14
Glen Hall | 7 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 13
Martin Brodeur | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 12
Tony Esposito | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 5 | 12
Jacques Plante | 3 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 11
Patrick Roy | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 10
Tiny Thompson | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 10
Ed Belfour | 2 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 9
Dominik Hasek | 6 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 8
Frank Brimsek | 2 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8
Turk Broda | 2 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 8
Bill Durnan | 6 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 7
Ken Dryden | 5 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 7
Bernie Parent | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 7
Gump Worsley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 7
Johnny Bower | 1 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 7
Harry Lumley | 2 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 6
Roy Worters | 0 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 6
Ed Giacomin | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5
Tom Barrasso | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 5
Dave Kerr | 1 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 5
Pete Peeters | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 5
Chuck Rayner | 0 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 5
Roberto Luongo | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 5
Don Edwards | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 5
Andy Moog | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Charlie Gardiner | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4
Grant Fuhr | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 4
Mike Liut | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 4
Henrik Lundqvist | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4
Miikka Kiprusoff | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 4
Rogie Vachon | 0 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 4
Charlie Hodge | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 4
Roger Crozier | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 3
Evgeni Nabokov | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3
Ron Hextall | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 3
Mike Vernon | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3
George Hainsworth | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 3
Curtis Joseph | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 3
Tim Thomas | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
John Vanbiesbrouck | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
Johnny Mowers | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2
Billy Smith | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2
Lorne Chabot | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2
Al Rollins | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 2
Gerry Cheevers | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 2
Mike Richter | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2
Olaf Kolzig | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Normie Smith | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Ryan Miller | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Chris Osgood | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1
Alec Connell | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1
Chico Resch | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
[/table]

*One of Roy Worters finishes that is listed as a 4th could be a 3rd due to a discrepancy in the results for 1934-35.
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Here's a metric that can overrate a few goalies (Sawchuk really sticks out on this one, considering there was only 6 regular goalies for most of his career), and underrate a few.

But then, you have a guy whose resume is extremely Top-Heavy and YET ends up higher than where I would have ranked him. That's Ed Giacomin, of course.
 
Hawkey Town 18 said:
Henrik Lundqvist | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4
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i never noticed this before, but lundqvist's AST finishes suggest that the hype about lundqvist being a vezina candidate his first three years is probably overstated (in that two of those thirds were well behind the top two and interchangeable with a couple of other guys).
 
There seems to be some data missing from the chart.

Resch 2nd team 78-79
Lessard 2nd team 80-81
Melanson 2nd team 82-83
Riggin 2nd team 83-84
Lindbergh 1st team 84-85

Dafoe, Cechmanek, Carey, Turek, Turco?

Resch is the only one even on the list.
 
vadim sharifijanov said:
i never noticed this before, but lundqvist's AST finishes suggest that the hype about lundqvist being a vezina candidate his first three years is probably overstated (in that two of those thirds were well behind the top two and interchangeable with a couple of other guys).
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Shows that GMs like him better than writers
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Shows that GMs like him better than writers
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i don't know about that, TDDM. they look like two of the least meaningful third place vezina finishes to me--


2007

VEZINA: Pts. 1st-2nd-3rd
1. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 122 (16-14-0)
2. Roberto Luongo, VAN 116 (14-15-1)
3. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 7 (0-0-7)
Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 7 (0-0-7)
5. Dominik Hasek, DET 5 (0-0-5)
6. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 4 (0-1-1)
7. Ryan Miller, BUF 4 (0-0-4)
8. Rick DiPietro, NYI 2 (0-0-2)
J-S Giguere, ANA 2 (0-0-2)
10. Chris Mason, NSH 1 (0-0-1)

GOALTENDER: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd) Career All-Star Selections
1. MARTIN BRODEUR, N.J. 607 (91-50-2) 3 First Team, 3 Second Team
2. Roberto Luongo, VAN 521 (52-86-3) 0 First Team, 2 Second Team
3. Dominik Hasek, DET 58 (0-3-49)
4. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 25 (0-2-19)
5. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 23 (0-0-23)
6. Ryan Miller, BUF 17 (0-0-17)
7. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 13 (0-0-13)
8. Marty Turco, DAL 10 (0-1-7)
9. J.S. Giguere, ANA 7 (0-1-4)
10. Rick DiPietro, NYI 4 (0-0-4)
11. Ed Belfour, FLA 1 (0-0-1)
Cristobal Huet, MTL 1 (0-0-1)


2008

VEZINA: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 113 {15-12-2}
2. Evgeni Nabokov, S.J. 106 {13-13-2}
3. Henrik Lundqvist. NYR 13 {1-0-8)
4. J.S. Giguere, ANA 11 {0-1-8)
5. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 7 {1-0-2)
6. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 6 (0-2-0)
7. Roberto Luongo, VAN 5 (0-1-2)
8. Cristobal Huet, WSH 4 (0-1-1)
9. Carey Price, MTL 2 (0-0-2)
Tim Thomas, BOS 2 (0-0-2)
11. Chris Osgood, DET 1 (0-0-1)

GOALTENDER: Pts. (1st-2nd-3rd)
1. EVGENI NABOKOV, S.J. 523 (71-55-3)
2. Martin Brodeur, N.J. 475 (56-61-12)
3. J.S. Giguere, ANA 82 (3-8-43)
4. Henrik Lundqvist, NYR 74 (1-6-51)
5. Roberto Luongo, VAN 12 (1-1-4)
6. Miikka Kiprusoff, CGY 11 (0-1-8)
7. Chris Osgood, DET 9 (1-1-1)
8. Pascal Leclaire, CBJ 4 (0-0-4)
9. Dan Ellis, NSH 3 (0-0-3)
10. Tim Thomas, BOS 2 (0-0-2)
11. Niklas Backstrom, MIN 1 (0-0-1)
Ty Conklin, PIT 1 (0-0-1)

my point isn't that he hasn't been an elite goalie his entire career (which he has been), just that the "he has three vezina nominations in his first three years-- unprecedented-- HHOF" talk doesn't look nearly as strong when you look at the voting.
 
my point isn't that he hasn't been an elite goalie his entire career (which he has been), just that the "he has three vezina nominations in his first three years-- unprecedented-- HHOF" talk doesn't look nearly as strong when you look at the voting.
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True. I know I'm going to struggle a lot with how to rank Lundqvist

Any other active goalies deserve consideration other than the obvious choice in NJ?
 
Yeah I'll be ranking Thomas somewhere for sure, probably somewhere in the top 40-45. His peak is probably too good to ignore once you get to a certain point. Luongo will be interesting the further we get down the list.

Kiprusoff and Nabokov might be interesting the further down the top 60 you get, but they might not be quite there for a top 40.

EDIT: I guess I didn't realize how good Kiprusoff's record was:

Kiprusoff: 3rd, 4th , 20th, in Hart, 1st, 2nd , 3rd, 5th, 7th (with one vote), 8th, in Vezina, 1st, 4th , 4th, 6th, 8th in AST

Nabokov: 7th , 16th in Hart, 2nd , 4th, 4th, 4th , 5th, 6th in Vezina, 1st ,4th, 5th, 6th, 7th , 9th (with a vote) in AST,

Luongo: 2nd, 6th , 10th, 12th , 17th in Hart, 2nd, 3rd , 3rd, 4th, 7th, 7th , 10th(with a vote) in Vezina, 2nd, 2nd , 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 8th in AST,

Out of those three: I guess I'd rank Luongo ahead of Kiprusoff by this metric (mostly due to what I'd consider a pretty impressive Hart record), who are both ahead of Nabokov.
 
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BM67 said:
There seems to be some data missing from the chart.

Resch 2nd team 78-79
Lessard 2nd team 80-81
Melanson 2nd team 82-83
Riggin 2nd team 83-84
Lindbergh 1st team 84-85

Dafoe, Cechmanek, Carey, Turek, Turco?

Resch is the only one even on the list.
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The list was only of guys that were selected in the last ATD. I will fix Resch for sure (don't know how that is so far off). Turco's record is definitely good enough to be on there, but are any of the others worthy of a sniff at the Top 60?

EDIT: Fixed Resch and added Turco
 
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MXD said:
Here's a metric that can overrate a few goalies (Sawchuk really sticks out on this one, considering there was only 6 regular goalies for most of his career), and underrate a few.

But then, you have a guy whose resume is extremely Top-Heavy and YET ends up higher than where I would have ranked him. That's Ed Giacomin, of course.
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Agree with this. The AST finishes should just be a small piece of the puzzle when determining rankings, and they really need to be taken in the context of the era they were earned. As far as I'm concerned, anything less than a 3rd place in the O6 era isn't worth much at all.
 
Hawkey Town 18 said:
The list was only of guys that were selected in the last ATD. I will fix Resch for sure (don't know how that is so off). Turco's record is definitely good enough to be on there, but are any of the others worthy of a sniff at the Top 60?
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I'd expect to see Lindbergh on the list of a few people honestly. But I'm not sure it's necessary to include him within that metric for obvious reasons.
 
Added John Ross Roach to the AST table (He's one of those guys who likely gets underrated by this metric due to him playing before the NHL had AST's).
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
True. I know I'm going to struggle a lot with how to rank Lundqvist

Any other active goalies deserve consideration other than the obvious choice in NJ?
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Aside from the guys already mentioned, consideration could be given to J.S. Giguere, Nikolai Khabibulin, Cam Ward and Ryan Miller. I personally can't see any of them hitting the top 40, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them on someone's top 60 list.
 
Anyone who highly values peak should definitely have Kipper in their top 60. Fantastic 3-4 year peak.

Giguere is an interesting case
 
TheDevilMadeMe said:
Anyone who highly values peak should definitely have Kipper in their top 60. Fantastic 3-4 year peak.

Giguere is an interesting case
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Isn't that the truth.

Imagine if he got the Conn Smythe in 2007.

I really thought at the time the voters didn't want to give it to him because they didn't want the Michelin Man to be mistaken as an all-time great. He was only 29 at the time, what if he won another Smythe after that?
 
Dennis Bonvie said:
Isn't that the truth.

Imagine if he got the Conn Smythe in 2007.

I really thought at the time the voters didn't want to give it to him because they didn't want the Michelin Man to be mistaken as an all-time great. He was only 29 at the time, what if he won another Smythe after that?
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Conversely, what if Brodeur won it in 2003...would we care about Giguere one iota? I don't think Giguere was a feasible option for the trophy in 2007 to be perfectly honest.
 
Mike Farkas said:
Conversely, what if Brodeur won it in 2003...would we care about Giguere one iota? I don't think Giguere was a feasible option for the trophy in 2007 to be perfectly honest.
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I think there were about 5 feasible options... I was definitely on the Pahlsson bandwagon at the time, looking back. Who knows how close giguere came to winning that one? No one, unfortunately, because they don't release this stuff - plus I'm pretty sure they all get to make just one first place vote :(
 
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