HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[TheDevilMadeMe]

DEADLINE TO SUBMIT YOUR LIST IS OCTOBER 1. THIS MAY BE EXTENDED, BUT DON'T COUNT ON IT

1. Eligibility
   • Any person who spent the majority of his career playing as a goaltender is eligible
   • Players will be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players
   • A player's accomplishments at his secondary position may be taken into account; it is up to the list maker to determine how to evaluate such players (probably not really applicable to goalies)
   • Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based on what they already did
2. Preliminary Discussion Thread
   • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not plan on taking part in the voting phase
   • Any goaltender may be discussed
   • Posters are encouraged to share information about goaltenders in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
   • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of Voting.
   • Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread.
3. Voting
   • Round 1
     • All participants submit a list of 60 goaltenders ranked in order
     • All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players
     • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Terry Sawchuk, not Terrance Gordon Sawchuk; Gump Worsley, not Lorne Worsley.
     • Lists may be submitted via email to [email protected] or via PM to me. Excel format is preferred, but a top to bottom list of 60 is fine too.
     • Deadline to submit lists is Oct 1. Please PM me if you can't make the deadline and would like to participate.
     • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
     • Players will be awarded 60 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a 60th place vote
     • An aggregate list of the top goaltenders will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
     • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
   • Round 2
     • The top 8 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
     • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
     • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active.
     • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, by email.
     • Top 4 players will be added to the list
     • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 40 goaltenders is obtained
     • The number of players available for discussion at once may increase from 8 as we move down the list, depending on the closeness of the aggregate list put together in Round 1
4. Quality Assurance
   • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
   • The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All Star Teams 1930-2012

Name|1st Teams|2nd Teams|Total
Glenn Hall|7|4|11
Frank Brimaek|2|6|8
Terry Sawchuk|3|4|7
Jacques Plante|3|4|7
Martin Brodeur|3|4|7
Bill Durnan|6|0|6
Dominik Hasek|6|0|6
Ken Dryden|5|1|6
Patrick Roy|4|2|6
Tony Esposito|3|2|5
Ed Giacomin|2|3|5
Charlie Gardiner|3|1|4
Tiny Thompson|2|2|4
Turk Broda|2|1|3
Ed Belfour|2|1|3
Tom Barrasso|1|2|3
Chuck Rayner|0|3|3
Harry Lumley|2|0|2
Bernie Parent|2|0|2
Tim Thomas|2|0|2
Dave Kerr|1|1|2
Gump Worsley|1|1|2
Mike Liut|1|1|2
Grant Fuhr|1|1|2
John Vanbiesbrouck|1|1|2
Roy Worters|0|2|2
Wilf Cude|0|2|2
Charlie Hodge|0|2|2
Rogie Vachon|0|2|2
Don Edwards|0|2|2
Glenn Resch|0|2|2
Roberto Luongo|0|2|2
John Ross Roach|1|0|1
Lorne Chabot|1|0|1
Normie Smith|1|0|1
Johnny Bower|1|0|1
Billy Smith|1|0|1
Pete Peeters|1|0|1
Pelle Lindbergh|1|0|1
Ron Hextall|1|0|1
Jim Carey|1|0|1
Olaf Kolzig|1|0|1
Miikka Kiprusoff|1|0|1
Evgeni Nabokov|1|0|1
Ryan Miller|1|0|1
Henrik Lundqvist|1|0|1
Earl Robertson|0|1|1
Paul Bibeault|0|1|1
Mike Karakas|0|1|1
Jim Henry|0|1|1
Gerry McNeil|0|1|1
Mario Lessard|0|1|1
Roland Melanson|0|1|1
Pat Riggin|0|1|1
Bob Froese|0|1|1
Darren Puppa|0|1|1
Kirk McLean|0|1|1
Chris Osgood|0|1|1
Byron Dafoe|0|1|1
Roman Turek|0|1|1
Roman Cechmanek|0|1|1
Jose Theodore|0|1|1
Marty Turco|0|1|1
Steve Mason|0|1|1
Ilya Bryzgalov|0|1|1
Pekka Rinne|0|1|1
Jonathan Quick|0|1|1

Vezina Trophy Shares 1982-2012

times = times a player received at least 1 vote from a GM
share = sum of seasonal Vezina shares

player|times|share
Martin Brodeur|15|5.4072
Dominik Hasek|11|4.7591
Patrick Roy|17|4.6216
Ed Belfour|11|2.5044
Tom Barrasso|7|1.9833
Grant Fuhr|8|1.5901
Roberto Luongo|7|1.5600
Tim Thomas|3|1.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck|9|1.5329
Henrik Lundqvist|7|1.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff|7|1.4333
Evgeni Nabokov|6|1.2267
Ron Hextall|5|1.0359
Curtis Joseph|8|1.0247
Pete Peeters|3|1.0190
Ryan Miller|2|0.8667
Pekka Rinne|2|0.8400
Pelle Lindbergh|1|0.8381
Olaf Kolzig|3|0.8368
Mike Vernon|8|0.8359
Darren Puppa|2|0.8234
Kirk Mclean|2|0.7528
Marty Turco|3|0.7200
Jose Theodore|1|0.7000
Mike Liut|5|0.6762
Bob Froese|2|0.6286
Billy Smith|3|0.6190
Illua Bryzgalov|2|0.5867
Rejean Lemelin|5|0.5800
Roman Turek|1|0.5643
Jim Carey|2|0.5154
Andy Moog|8|0.4970
Roman Cechmanek|2|0.4733
Byron Dafoe|3|0.4514
Pat Riggin|2|0.4476
Jonathan Quick|2|0.4267
Chris Osgood|4|0.4221
Kelly Hrudey|7|0.3742
Al Jensen|3|0.3524
Rollie Melanson|2|0.3333
Sean Burke|3|0.3138
Bryan Hayward|4|0.2857
Dan Bouchard|2|0.2857
Dion Mickel|1|0.2857
Nicklas Backstrom|3|0.2733
Mike Smith|1|0.2333
Steve Mason|1|0.2200
Mike Richter|5|0.2098
Murray Bannerman|1|0.2095
Clint Malarchuk|2|0.1714
Rick Wamsley|1|0.1714
Richard Brodeur|1|0.1524
Tomas Vokoun|4|0.1467
Felix Potvin|2|0.1450
Guy Hebert|3|0.1365
Jean-Sebastian Giguere|3|0.1333
Eldon Reddick|1|0.1238
Ron Tugnutt|1|0.1059
Don Beaupre|2|0.1048
Cam Ward|2|0.1000
Arturs Irbe|4|0.0977
Tommy Salo|3|0.0957
Glenn Resch|2|0.0952
Don Edwards|1|0.0952
Andrew Raycroft|1|0.0933
Patrick Lalime|2|0.0867
Ken Wregget|1|0.0846
Tim Cheveldae|2|0.0810
Carey Price|2|0.0800
Craig Anderson|1|0.0733
Trevor Kidd|1|0.0692
Dwayne Roloson|2|0.0667
Nikolai Khabibulin|2|0.0600
Glenn Hanlon|2|0.0571
Gilles Meloche|1|0.0476
Greg Millen|1|0.0476
Manny Legace|1|0.0400
Steve Penney|1|0.0381
Daniel Berthiaume|1|0.0381
Vincent Riendeau|1|0.0381
Chris Terreri|2|0.0377
Bill Ranford|2|0.0363
Brian Elliott|1|0.0333
Jon Casey|2|0.0286
Doug Keans|1|0.0286
Glenn Stefan|1|0.0286
Jaroslav Halak|2|0.0267
Christobal Huet|1|0.0267
Brian Boucher|1|0.0214
Manny Fernandez|2|0.0200
Tuukka Rask|1|0.0200
Marc-Andre Fleury|2|0.0133
Rick Dipietro|1|0.0133
Jimmy Howard|1|0.0133
Bob Janecyk|1|0.0095
Peter Sidorkiewicz|1|0.0095
Kay Whitmore|1|0.0083
Glenn Healy|1|0.0077
Jeff Hackett|1|0.0071
Martin Gerber|1|0.0067
Chris Mason|1|0.0067
Antti Niemi|1|0.0067

Data from hockeygoalies.org, except for 2011-12, which I calculated myself

Top 5 Hart finishes 1924-2012

name|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|total
Martin Brodeur|0|0|3|2|2|7
Dominik Hasek|2|1|2|0|0|5
Patrick Roy|0|1|1|1|2|5
Glenn Hall|0|0|0|2|3|5
Roy Worters|1|1|0|1|1|4
Terry Sawchuk|0|0|1|3|0|4
Tony Esposito|0|1|1|1|0|3
Frank Brimsek|0|1|1|0|1|3
Bill Durnan|0|1|1|0|1|3
Ken Dryden|0|1|0|2|0|3
Harry Lumley|0|1|0|1|1|3
Al Rollins|1|1|0|0|0|2
Chuck Rayner|1|0|0|1|0|2
Rogie Vachon|0|1|1|0|0|2
Mike Liut|0|1|1|0|0|2
Jacques Plante|1|0|0|0|1|2
Bernie Parent|0|1|0|1|0|2
John Ross Roach|0|0|2|0|0|2
Miikka Kiprusoff|0|0|1|1|0|2
John Vanbiesbrouck|0|0|1|0|1|2
Charlie Hodge|0|0|0|1|1|2
Jose Theodore|1|0|0|0|0|1
Johnny Bower|0|1|0|0|0|1
Ed Giacomin|0|1|0|0|0|1
Pete Peeters|0|1|0|0|0|1
Grant Fuhr|0|1|0|0|0|1
Roberto Luongo|0|1|0|0|0|1
Clint Benedict|0|0|1|0|0|1
Jim Henry|0|0|1|0|0|1
Gump Worsley|0|0|1|0|0|1
Pelle Lindbergh|0|0|1|0|0|1
Ed Belfour|0|0|1|0|0|1
Henrik Lundqvist|0|0|1|0|0|1
Tiny Thompson|0|0|0|1|0|1
Turk Broda|0|0|0|1|0|1
Gerry McNeil|0|0|0|1|0|1
Roger Crozier|0|0|0|1|0|1
Don Edwards|0|0|0|1|0|1
Kirk MacLean|0|0|0|1|0|1
Curtis Joseph|0|0|0|1|0|1
Olaf Kolzig|0|0|0|1|0|1
Roman Cechmanek|0|0|0|1|0|1
Steve Mason|0|0|0|1|0|1
Ryan Miller|0|0|0|1|0|1
Pekke Rinne|0|0|0|1|0|1
Mike Palmateer|0|0|0|0|1|1
Sean Burke|0|0|0|0|1|1
Ilya Bryzgalov|0|0|0|0|1|1
Tim Thomas|0|0|0|0|1|1
Jonathan Quick|0|0|0|0|1|1

 

[Epsilon]

All goaltenders in the Hockey Hall of Fame, with induction dates:

1945: Charles Robert "Chuck" Gardiner
1945: Georges Vezina
1958: Alex Connell
1958: Frederick Hugh Lehman
1958: Patrick Joseph "Paddy" Moran
1959: Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
1961: George Hainsworth
1961: Percy LeSueur
1962: William Milton "Riley" Hern
1962: John Bower "Bouse" Hutton
1964: William Ronald Durnan
1965: Clinton S. "Clint" Benedict
1966: Francis Charles Brimsek
1967: Walter Edward "Turk" Broda
1969: Roy Worters
1971: Terrance Gordon "Terry" Sawchuk
1972: Harry "Hap" Holmes
1973: Claude Earl "Chuck" Rayner
1975: Glenn Henry Hall
1976: John William Bower
1978: Joseph Jacques Plante
1980: Harry Lumley
1980: Lorne "Gump" Worsley
1983: Ken Dryden
1984: Bernard Marcel Parent
1985: Gerald Michael "Gerry" Cheevers
1987: Edward "Eddie" Giacomin
1988: Anthony James "Tony" Esposito
1989: Vladislav Tretiak
1993: William John "Billy" Smith
2003: Grant Fuhr
2006: Patrick Roy
2011: Ed Belfour

Among active or recently retired goaltenders, Dominik Hasek and Martin Brodeur are consensus locks to one day be HHOF inductees.

MOD: Early goalies mentioned in this thread who are not in the HHOF:

•Hal Winkler: most wins in WCHL history, 1 time WCHL All Star
•Tom Paton: standout pre-Stanley Cup goalie

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

International and European Domestic Accomplishments

USSR

Nikolai Khabibulin
•Olympics Best Goalie (2002)

Viktor Konovalenko
•Soviet League All Star (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970)
•Soviet Player of the Year (1970)
•World Championships All Star (1970)

Vladimir Myshkin
•Soviet League All Star (1985)
•Canada Cup All Star (1984)

Nikolai Puchkov
•Soviet League All Star (1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1962)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1959)

Vladislav Tretiak
•Soviet League All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984)
•Soviet Player of the Year (1974, 1975, 1976, 1982, 1983)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1974, 1979, 1983)
•World Championships All Star (1975, 1979, 1983)
•Canada Cup All Star (1981)
•Canada Cup MVP (1981)

CSSR

Note: not including Golden Stick finishes after NHL players became eligible

Vladimir Dzurilla
•CSSR Golden Stick 1st Among Goalies (1969, 1970, 1972, 1977)
•World Chanpionships Best Goalie (1965)
•World Championships All Star (1965, 1969)
•Three Gold Medals - starter in 1969, two behind Holecek

Dominik Hasek
•CSSR Golden Stick Winner (1987, 1989, 1990)
•CSSR Golden Stick 1st Among Goalies (1986, 1987, 1989, 1990)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1987, 1989)
•World Championships All Star (1987, 1989, 1990)
•Olympics Best Goalie (1998)

Jiri Holecek
•CSSR Golden Stick Winner (1974)
•CSSR Golden Stick 1st Among Goalies (1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Chanpionships Best Goalie (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
•World Championships All Star (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)
•Three Gold Medals as a starter over the powerful Soviet team

Jiri Kralik
•CSSR Golden Stick winner (1985)
•CSSR Golden Stick 1st Among Goalies (1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1985)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1982, 1985)
•World Championships All Star (1982, 1985)
•Gold Medal in 1985

Jaroslav Modry
•Gold Medals at the 1947 & 1949 World Championships
•Silver Medal at the 1948 Olympics
•Sentenced to Hard labor in the Uranium Mines in 1950 for allegedly wanting to defect

Tomas Vokoun
•World Chanpionships Best Goalie (2005)
•World Chanpionships All Star (2005)

Sweden

Leif Holmqvist
•Golden Puck winner (1968, 1970) - 1 of 3 players to win it twice
•7 consecutive Swedish All Star Teams
•World Championship Best Goalie (1969)

Peter Lindmark
•Golden Puck winner (1981)
•Named MVP by the players (1987)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1981, 1986)
•World Championships All Star (1981, 1986)
•Two Gold Medals (1987, 1991)

Henrik Lundqvist
•Golden Puck winner (2005)
•World Championships All Star (2004)
•Olympic Gold Medal in 2006

Tommy Salo
•Olympics All Star (1994)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1997, 1999)
•World Championships All Star (1997, 1998, 1999)

Finland

Antero Niitymaki
•Olmypics Best Player (2006)
•Olympics Best Goalie (2006)
•Olympics All Star (2006)

Canada

Martin Brodeur
•World Cup All Star (2004)
•Olympic Gold in 2002, World Cup Gold in 2004

Seth Martin
•World Chanpionships Best Goalie (1961, 1963, 1964, 1966)
•World Chanpionships All Star (1961, 1964, 1966)
•Gold Medal in 1961

Bill Ranford
•Canada Cup All Star (1991)
•Canada Cup MVP (1991)
•World Championships Best Goalie (1994)

Rogie Vachon
•Canada Cup All Star (1976)

USA

Roy Leblanc
•Olmypics All Star (1992)

Ryan Miller
•Olympics Best Player (2010)
•Olympics Best Goalie (2010)
•Olympics All Star (2010)

Mike Richter
•World Cup All Star (1996)
•World Cup MVP (1996)
•Olympics All Star (2002)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Relevant links:

Goalies before 1950 research thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1168191

Adjusted Save Percentage
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=718221

Adjusted Playoff Save Percentage
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1185967

Vezina Trophy Shares
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1256511

 

[steve141]

List of players elected best goaltender at the WC

Year Goaltender
1954: Don Lockhardt (CAN)
1955: Don Rigazio (USA)
1956: Willard Ikola (USA)
1957: Karel Straka (TCH)
1958: Vladimir Nadrchal (TCH)
1959: Nikolai Puchkov (URS)
1960: Jack McCartan (USA)
1961: Seth Martin (CAN)
1962: Lennart Häggroth (SWE)
1963: Seth Martin (CAN)
1964: Seth Martin (CAN)
1965: Vladimír Dzurilla (TCH)
1966: Seth Martin (CAN)
1967: Cark Wetzek (USA)
1968: Ken Broderick (CAN)
1969: Leif Holmqvist (SWE)
1970: Urpo Ylönen (FIN)
1971: Jiří Holeček (TCH)
1972: Jorma Valtonen (FIN)
1973: Jiří Holeček (TCH)
1974: Vladislav Tretiak (URS)
1975: Jiří Holeček (TCH)
1976: Jiří Holeček (TCH)
1977: Göran Högosta (SWE)
1978: Jiří Holeček (TCH)
1979: Vladislav Tretiak (URS)
1981: Peter Lindmark (SWE)
1982: Jiří Králík (TCH)
1983: Vladislav Tretiak (URS)
1985: Jiří Králík (TCH)
1986: Peter Lindmark (SWE)
1987: Dominik Hašek (TCH)
1989: Dominik Hašek (TCH)
1990: Artūrs Irbe (URS)
1991: Markus Ketterer (FIN)
1992: Tommy Söderström (SWE)
1993: Petr Bříza (CZE)
1994: Bill Ranford (CAN)
1995: Jarmo Myllys (FIN)
1996: Roman Turek (TCH)
1997: Tommy Salo (SWE)
1998: Ari Sulander (FIN)
1999: Tommy Salo (SWE)
2000: Roman Čechmánek (CZE)
2001: Milan Hnilička (CZE)
2002: Maxim Sokolov (RUS)
2003: Sean Burke (CAN)
2004: Ty Conklin (USA)[1][2]
2005: Tomáš Vokoun (CZE)
2006: Johan Holmqvist (SWE)
2007: Kari Lehtonen (FIN)
2008: Evgeni Nabokov (RUS)
2009: Andrei Mezin (BLR)
2010: Dennis Endras (GER)
2011: Viktor Fasth (SWE)
2012: Ján Laco (SVK)

 

[steve141]

List of goaltenders who have been elected Best goaltender at the World Championships multiple times

5 times
Jiří Holeček(TCH) - 1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978

4 times
Seth Martin (CAN) - 1961, 1963, 1964, 1966

3 times
Vladislav Tretiak (URS) - 1974, 1979, 1983

2 times
Dominik Hašek (TCH) - 1987, 1989
Jiří Králík (TCH) - 1982, 1985
Peter Lindmark (SWE) - 1981, 1986
Tommy Salo (SWE) - 1997, 1999

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

All goalies who have finished top 5 in Hart voting. There doesn't seem to be nearly as strong a pattern as there was with defensemen.

1924: 3. John Ross Roach
1925: 3. Clint Benedict
1926: 4. Roy Worters
1927: None
1928: 2. Roy Worters
1929: 1. Roy Worters
1930: None
1931: None
1932: None
1933: 3. John Ross Roach
1934: 5. Roy Worters
1935: None
1936: None
1937: 4. Tiny Thompson
1938: None
1939: None
1940: None
1941: None
1942: 3. Frank Brimsek
1943: 5. Frank Brimsek
1944: None
1945: None
1946: 3. Bill Durnan 4. Harry Lumley
1947: 4T. Turk Broda 4T. Chuck Rayner
1948: 2. Frank Brimsek
1949: 2. Bill Durnan
1950: 1. Chuck Rayner 5. Bill Durnan
1951: None
1952: 3. Jim Henry 4. Terry Sawchuk
1953: 2. Al Rollins 4. Gerry McNeil
1954: 1. Al Rollins 5. Harry Lumley
1955: 2. Harry Lumley
1956: 3. Gump Worsley
1957: 4. Terry Sawchuk
1958: 5. Glenn Hall
1959: 4. Terry Sawchuk
1960: 5. Glenn Hall
1961: 2. Johnny Bower 5. Glenn Hall
1962: 1. Jacques Plante
1963: 3. Terry Sawchuk 4. Glenn Hall
1964: 4. Charlie Hodge
1965: 4. Roger Crozier 5. Charlie Hodge
1966: 4. Glenn Hall
1967: 2. Ed Giacomin
1968: None
1969: None
1970: 2. Tony Esposito
1971: 5. Jacques Plante
1972: 2. Ken Dryden
1973: 4. Ken Dryden
1974: 2. Bernie Parent 4. Tony Esposito
1975: 2. Rogie Vachon 4. Bernie Parent
1976: 4. Ken Dryden
1977: 3. Rogie Vachon
1978: 4. Don Edwards
1979: 5. Mike Palmateer
1980: 3. Tony Esposito
1981: 2. Mike Liut
1982: None
1983: 2. Pete Peeters
1984: None
1985: 3. Pelle Lindbergh
1986: 5. John Vanbiesbrouck
1987: 3. Mike Liut
1988: 2. Grant Fuhr
1989: 4. Patrick Roy
1990: 5. Patrick Roy
1991: 3. Ed Belfour
1992: 2. Patrick Roy 4. Kirk MacLean
1993: None
1994: 2. Dominik Hasek 3. John Vanbiesbrouck 5. Patrick Roy
1995: 3. Dominik Hasek
1996: None
1997: 1. Dominik Hasek 4. Martin Brodeur
1998: 1. Dominik Hasek 4. Martin Brodeur
1999: 3. Dominik Hasek 4. Curtis Joseph
2000: 4. Olaf Kolzig
2001: 4. Roman Cechmanek 5. Martin Brodeur
2002: 1. Jose Theodore 3. Patrick Roy 5. Sean Burke
2003: 3. Martin Brodeur
2004: 3. Martin Brodeur 4. Miikka Kiprusoff
2006: 3. Miikka Kiprusoff
2007: 2. Roberto Luongo 3. Martin Brodeur
2008: 5. Martin Brodeur
2009: 4. Steve Mason
2010: 4. Ryan Miller 5. Ilya Bryzgalov
2011: 4. Pekka Rinne 5. Tim Thomas
2012: 3. Henrik Lundqvist 5. Jonathan Quick

 

[vecens24]

So is the purpose of this thread simply information, or can we try to tease out some stuff here too.

For instance, I know that I am struggling with Connell/LeSueur/Hutton and where to rank all of them in the grand scheme of things. Is this thread a place for that discussion?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So is the purpose of this thread simply information, or can we try to tease out some stuff here too.

For instance, I know that I am struggling with Connell/LeSueur/Hutton and where to rank all of them in the grand scheme of things. Is this thread a place for that discussion?

Yes. You can discuss anything relating to goalies in this thread. The only thing you can't do (other than stray too far off topic) is post your actual list or parts of it

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah I realized that after but TDMM took care of it in his post.

I think having a single post of when guys were inducted into the HHOF would be helpful

 

[steve141]

I'll start off the discussion: Does anyone have any smart ideas on how to compare European goalies to North American?

Even if the quality of play in the NHL was better than in Europe during the 70s and 80s, I don't think we can say that there weren't any elite goaltenders in Europe.

There is a tendency on this board to only value play against NHL players. I suspect, for example, that most will rank Tretiak over Holecek, based on the Summit Series. However, when these two players played against each other in the WC (1971-1981) Holecek was named best goaltender five times compared to Tretiak's two. How do we know that Tretiak is better, if Holecek regularily outperformed him?

 

[vecens24]

Yes. You can discuss anything relating to goalies in this thread. The only thing you can't do (other than stray too far off topic) is post your actual list or parts of it

Okay, then let's start.

LeSueur, Connell, Hutton. Go!

 

[Epsilon]

I'll start off the discussion: Does anyone have any smart ideas on how to compare European goalies to North American?

Even if the quality of play in the NHL was better than in Europe during the 70s and 80s, I don't know that we can say that the goaltenders were necessarily better. Can we?

There is a tendency on this board to only value play against NHL players. I suspect, for example, that most will rank Tretiak over Holecek, based on the Summit Series. However, when these two players played against each other in the WC (1971-1981) Holecek was named best goaltender five times compared to Tretiaks two. How do we know that Tretiak is better, if Holecek regularily outperformed him?

This is certainly something worth considering, but there are definitely some questions that aren't answered simply by looking at who won the best goaltender award:

-How were the awards chosen, and if they were by vote, who were the voters and how many where there?

-Was there any tendency from the voters to award players for a particular reason? For instance with the WJCs at least, we have seen players win the "best goaltender" award due to playing on hopelessly overmatched teams where they may have lost most of their games and given up lots of goals, but were facing 50-60 shots or more per game. Could Holecek have benefited in the voting compared to Tretiak by virtue of the fact that his team was not as strong as the Soviet team and he was viewed as being more valuable to his team's success?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hasek

List of goaltenders who have been elected Best goaltender at the World Championships multiple times

5 times
Jiří Holeček(TCH) - 1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978

4 times
Seth Martin (CAN) - 1961, 1963, 1964, 1966

3 times
Vladislav Tretiak (URS) - 1974, 1979, 1983
Dominik Hašek (TCH) - 1987, 1989

2 times
Jiří Králík (TCH) - 1982, 1985
Peter Lindmark (SWE) - 1981, 1986
Tommy Salo (SWE) - 1997, 1999

Hasek only two times.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Okay, then let's start.

LeSueur, Connell, Hutton. Go!

Nobody even profiled Hutton, so it's hard to say much about him. Based in my readings from the era, he seems to be less prominent than other HHOFers of the time - Moran, Leseuer, and Hern. But that could just be because nobody ever took the time to research him

 

[Epsilon]

With regards to the Hart voting TDMM posted, and the comparison with the obvious patterns that can be observed for the defensemen data, it's tricky to say why that is. Besides the fact that goaltenders obviously got more Hart consideration as a group post-Norris trophy than defensemen did, there's also a much greater willingness for the voters to reward goaltenders in the Hart voting for one-off/"fluke" seasons, even guys who had no previous pedigree (or even further, guys like Cechmanek who the media routinely bashed). Some possible reasons:

-Because the GMs vote on the Vezina rather than the writers, they feel less like the goaltenders have already gotten their due from then, compared to the defensemen where they vote on the Norris?

-The obvious "value" a goaltender has to their team, relative to any other single position? (and I mean in the average or abstract, not for specific players or exceptional cases like Gretzky and Orr).

-The likelihood that a goaltender having a great season will make more appearances in the highlight reels for big, game-changing saves, compared to a defenseman?

-Other possibilities?

 

[steve141]

-Was there any tendency from the voters to award players for a particular reason? For instance with the WJCs at least, we have seen players win the "best goaltender" award due to playing on hopelessly overmatched teams where they may have lost most of their games and given up lots of goals, but were facing 50-60 shots or more per game. Could Holecek have benefited in the voting compared to Tretiak by virtue of the fact that his team was not as strong as the Soviet team and he was viewed as being more valuable to his team's success?

I don't know the answer to this.

I suspect that this is a possible tendency in all goalie award voting though, especially the ones from earlier eras where stats like save percentage were not available.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not that I am surprised because lets face it the guy has never got a whole lot of credit. But no Chris Osgood anywhere on this page is pretty funny. I know he was a second team all-star in 95-96 when the Wings goalies won the Jennings so he should have been on that list. In any event the guy never got a whole lot of credit, but sits top 10 in a lot of categories, most specifically he has a sterling playoff resume. If you are making a top 40 list and his name isn't on it a mistake has been made in my opinion. Whether you think the Wings carried him or not, he cracks that list on his accomplishments. I hope people give him a serious look and don't just write him off as is so often done with Osgood.

 

[Epsilon]

Not that I am surprised because lets face it the guy has never got a whole lot of credit. But no Chris Osgood anywhere on this page is pretty funny. I know he was a second team all-star in 95-96 when the Wings goalies won the Jennings so he should have been on that list. In any event the guy never got a whole lot of credit, but sits top 10 in a lot of categories, most specifically he has a sterling playoff resume. If you are making a top 40 list and his name isn't on it a mistake has been made in my opinion. Whether you think the Wings carried him or not, he cracks that list on his accomplishments. I hope people give him a serious look and don't just write him off as is so often done with Osgood.

The list TDMM provided specified 2 2nd team all-star finishes, so Osgood wasn't omitted from it due to oversight.

As far as him being on the top 40, he was picked 53rd in the last All-Time Draft, so while his name should probably be in the conversation there's no way he should be regarded as a given.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

funny that he thinks the omission of Osgood and not Cujo was the grevious mistake. I wanted a more objective criteria to the list than "he was drafted at spot x in the All Time Draft" and 1 2nd team all star would bring in a ton of guys who would never be considered. I might just add the top goalies in terms of career wins so modern goalies like Cujo, Vernon, and Osgood who played for a long time at a high level but never recorded individual awards are captured

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

funny that he thinks the omission of Osgood and not Cujo was the grevious mistake. I wanted a more objective criteria to the list than "he was drafted at spot x in the All Time Draft" and 1 2nd team all star would bring in a ton of guys who would never be considered. I might just add the top goalies in terms of career wins so modern goalies like Cujo, Vernon, and Osgood who played for a long time at a high level bit never recorded individual awards are captured

It could be the cup wins, I just think Osgood is criminally underrated. I think all three guys should be on a top 60 list. I don't expect everyone to agree, to each his own. There is this notion that the Wings carried Osgood to everything. Well when Cujo failed with a championship caliber roster in Detroit did that not say something. When Hasek failed in his second go round and Osgood came in and won nobody wanted to credit him there. Osgood made four stanley cup finals apperances, he has fabulous post-season numbers. No team he ever played on failed to make the playoffs including some average teams in Long Island and St. Louis. If the Wings don't blow a 3-2 lead in 2009 he wins the Conn Smythe. In fact it could be argued he was robbed of the Conn Smythe when Zetterberg won it the year before. In any event he is basically a lock for the HHOF if they hold on to the 09 series. They didn't so unfortunately he probably won't make the HHOF, but it isn't because his resume is lacking.

Posted earlier on a thread around here go look at his playoff numbers they are not worlds different than Brodeur, Belfour and many of his more celebrated contemporaries. I didn't say he was a lock, I just have feeling if I put him on the list I would have to explain it. I think he has earned the right to have a seat at the table in this discussion.

I have always blamed a part of why he is left out of this discussion on the Wings fan-base itself. I can think of very few places where someone who has accomplished what he has, that he wouldn't be fully embraced. It is unfortunate, I just wanted to point out a name I didn't see that I think is worth mentioning. I am not saying put him in the top 10 which is where his postseason numbers are across the board. I am more pointing out don't write off the guy and explain it as just luck and Red Wings dominance. He was a part of what helped them win, they didn't win inspite of him.

Since I pointed out the Conn Smythe it is worth pointing out that Vernon does have one of those. I consider that a pretty big award in terms of career achievements.

 

[Michael Farkas]

As an outsider's point of view on Detroit and Osgood, the weakest link on the 2008 team was Osgood. They rolled through the West and the only thing that kept the Pens alive in the Finals was Osgood, right down to the very last second when Crosby and Hossa nearly stuffed one home as time expired...

 

[tombombadil]

I'd be disappointed, as a Wings fan, if Osgood made it. Truly, many voters DO go off of accolades, and he has those - Team ones.

He took over from Hasek and won, yes. Hasek was 43 years old. We start making excuses for other guys long before that.

Osgood was a passibly able goalie on great teams. The quality and quantity of his shots were both low.

Anyways, this isn't my gig, I was just passing through....

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

As an outsider's point of view on Detroit and Osgood, the weakest link on the 2008 team was Osgood. They rolled through the West and the only thing that kept the Pens alive in the Finals was Osgood, right down to the very last second when Crosby and Hossa nearly stuffed one home as time expired...

I know we just had this argument elsewhere. But false.

They were on their way to getting eliminated by Nashville in the first round with Hasek in net. Osgood came in at the end of game 4 as Nashville tied the series with all the momentum and the rest as they say is history.


GP:19 GA:1.55 SV%.930

18 Starts - 14-4

He won his next nine starts. He started the stanley cup finals with two straight shutouts. I think he is the fourth player in the history of the NHL to accomplish that feat if I remember right. He was probably runner up to Zetterberg for Conn Smythe and an easy argument can be made he deserved the award. They don't have a banner without Chris Osgood in 08.

He split time with Hasek during which the two won the Jennings award that season. By the way he played the more games in both the years the Jennings was won over both Vernon and Hasek. But he actually had the lowest GAA average in the league in both the regular season and playoffs in 2008.

Osgood Stat accomplishments read

4th all time in NHL wins percentage
10th all time in Wins
7th all time in GAA
Two Jennings
Two Stanley Cups as a starter (One as a backup)
Five Stanley Cup finals (One as a backup)
He is also in the top ten of virtually every playoff stat, SO, Wins, SV%, GAA.

You can say he never jumped out at you as elite, fine that is true of a lot of players. That is why he doesn't belong near the top ten and is a fringe hall of fame candidate. But his credentials speak for themselves. I can make a case for putting him somewhere in the low 20's and do so with a straight face and not just blind homerism. I will have to sit down and do it, but I cannot see him not coming in somewhere in the 30's even when I examine this more closely. I was blessed to see Vernon, Hasek, Cujo and Osgood all in a short time period. I can tell you he belongs with those guys. It is more than just watching Wings games I have long thought Osgood belonged under the tier of Hasek, Roy and Brodeur. Belfour who I saw a lot, I would not take over Osgood and I realize I am in the minority, but they have similar credentials. Belfour did get his Vezina's though. He belongs in the discussion, where he ranks at that point is personal opinion. Obviously Hasek is out in front in terms of Wings goalies (mostly from his Sabres days) but my point is Osgood was a great goalie. He just never got enough credit.

My point was I wanted to see him added to the list which he was. I also feel like his name would be questioned because if he didn't make the preliminary list and I handed in a spread sheet with him on it. I would be questioned for it and I think his case should be made because he is undersold a lot. I thought we were encouraged to do that.