HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dr John Carlson]

1. Eligibility
   • Any person who spent the majority of his career playing as a goaltender is eligible
   • Players will be judged only on their accomplishments as hockey players
   • Players currently active are eligible, but should be ranked based only on what they've already done
2. Preliminary Discussion
   • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if they do not plan on taking part in the voting phase
   • Any goaltender may be discussed - no matter when or where they played, or for how long
   • Posters are encouraged to share information about goaltenders in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
   • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of voting
   • Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread
3. Voting
   • Round 1
     • All participants submit a list of 80 goaltenders ranked in order
     • All eras MUST be considered, and consideration should be given to both NHL and non-NHL players
     • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Terry Sawchuk, not Terrance Gordon Sawchuk; Gump Worsley, not Lorne Worsley
     • Lists must be submitted via pm to @Dr John Carlson
     • Deadline to submit lists is September 20
     • Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
     • Players will be awarded 80 points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for an 80th place vote
     • An aggregate list of the top goaltenders will be compiled, ranking them in order of the most total points
     • Participants MUST submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible for Round 2
   • Round 2
     • The top 10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
     • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
     • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
     • Final voting will occur for two (2) days, by PM. A 1st-place vote is equal to 10 points. A 2nd-place vote is equal to 9 points. A 10th-place vote is equal to 1 point. Unranked players receive 0 points
     • Top 5 players will be added to the list - this number is flexible in extreme cases of large gaps or small margins between players
     • Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 goaltenders is obtained
     • The number of players available for discussion at once may increase from 10 as we move down the list, depending on the closeness of the aggregate list put together in Round 1, or proximity to the end of the project
     • Anyone may participate in these threads, but voting is reserved only for those who submitted lists in Round 1
4. Quality Assurance
   • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
   • This is not meant to deter participation; we merely want to ensure that voters are considering all eras and the complete geography of hockey's history
   • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
   • The submitter of a questionable list will be given an opportunity to defend or justify any selection under question or to correct errors and resubmit
5. Useful Resources
   • To help with the potentially daunting task of assembling 80 goaltenders onto one list, the following HFBoards-related resources can be considered starting points:
     • The 2012 edition of the project
     • All Time Draft biographies (sorted by era, then by position)
     • Historical goalie data
     • International goalie data and awards
     • Pre-1950 goalie research
     • Adjusted save percentage (1956-2022)
     • Adjusted playoff save percentage (1984-2022)
     • The Hockey News's Top 100 Goaltenders (2018)
   • Any suggestions for additions to the above list are welcome

Click to read more...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The Hockey News' Top 100 Goaltenders list could be a reference - there were a few HoH regulars that contributed there.

 

[Professor What]

I'm going to suggest what I think is a balanced approach to expansion of the list. A top 60 final product with a top 80 initial list. It does expand the list and I don't think it runs too high of a risk of burnout.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm curious on any arguments to break up what is usually considered a clear top 8 for goalies. Vezina came out of the pre merger project looking really good.

I would love to get away from save percentage as our baseline. GSAA is ultimately still based on this, so it's a small step up.

Price is going to be ranked all over the place. By contemprary reputation he's in the 10-15 range. By award voting he's outside the top 30. I think the truth is in the middle.

A lot of the discussion in recent years has been centred on strong systems insulating goalies. It's why Benedict fell so hard in the pre merger. It's why guys like Lundqvist look strong and guys like Thomas look weak.

I look forward to Mike Farkas and Tim Thomas.

 

[Professor What]

I'm curious on any arguments to break up what is usually considered a clear top 8 for goalies. Vezina came out of the pre merger project looking really good.

I would love to get away from save percentage as our baseline. GSAA is ultimately still based on this, so it's a small step up.

Price is going to be ranked all over the place. By contemprary reputation he's in the 10-15 range. By award voting he's outside the top 30. I think the truth is in the middle.

A lot of the discussion in recent years has been centred on strong systems insulating goalies. It's why Benedict fell so hard in the pre merger. It's why guys like Lundqvist look strong and guys like Thomas look weak.

I look forward to Mike Farkas and Tim Thomas.

If Vezina has a shot to break up the top 8, then surely Brimsek does too. He was almost a steal pick in the pre-WW2 draft until sportsmanship took preeminence (still a move I applaud even though I didn't think it necessary), and I think the feeling generally was that if such a draft were to happen again, that he'd be the first goalie taken.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

As you can see, there are some TBDs in the first post, so please be sure to vote in the poll so we can decide what we're doing regarding the length of the list. If there are any eager beavers who are thinking about submitting a list soon, please sit on it until we figure that out. The poll is set to last for a week, and you can change your vote, so we'll make a decision by then if it hasn't already been made apparent.

Since there were no objections to the Friday, September 20th start date, that's what we're going with. We won't kick you to the curb if you need an extra day or two to submit, for whatever reason.

---

I intend on diving into some of these pre-WW2 goalies who spent a lot of time in amateur hockey to see if anything can be gleaned from their years outside of the NHL. I started on this a few weeks ago, as I figured the goalie project would win out. Bill Durnan was first on my list and I've only got couple seasons left to look through. George Hainsworth will be next. I wish I'd have started with him instead - not a lot of newspaper coverage on 'Bull' Durnan up in Kirkland Lake...

 

[bobholly39]

Should someone make a thread on the general boards to bring attention to this project? The more participants the better I feel. Lots of very knowledgeable hockey fans and historians who don't post in this section as often.

Also - I voted top 60 only. Some of the comments in the last thread convinced me that's probably a good # for goalies.

 

[rmartin65]

@BenchBrawl and @ResilientBeast come join the project!

 

[bobholly39]

Price is going to be ranked all over the place. By contemprary reputation he's in the 10-15 range. By award voting he's outside the top 30. I think the truth is in the middle.

I know the draft year doesn't work since Crosby/Price are in the same year - but still, imagine Price somehow ends up on Pittsburgh instead of Fleury? I could see him carving out a Martin Brodeur like career, with an even better peak. Injuries of course hurt him - but he didn't have a ton of them per se, it was more about the bad timing of them.

Doesn't have to be Pittsburgh - it's just the easiest team to think of since they made playoffs each year and were constantly a contender with Crosby/Malkin. But put Price on a consistent contender (maybe Boston or something, or even Washington) and his potential for a greater career is tremendous. He was also rock solid in playoffs.

Not sure how that translates to ranking him on this list though, or where he should slot.

 

[Michael Farkas]

We quickly identify how team dependent a goalie's accolades are...that's good. The margin is really thin. Six forwards and four d-men make postseason AS teams, the Vezina ballot has only been voted on for a fraction of its history and even that has just three slots, the available goalie stats are few and generally less important than other positions' numbers...it's very tough.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

• Players will be assigned a point value on the list based on ranking
• Players will be awarded [TBD] points for a 1st place vote down to 1 point for a [TBD]th place vote

I know I've made this point before, but I REALLY don't think we're well-served by this ordering of the preliminary list. It inordinately places relatively higher value on a player ranked really highly on the preliminary list of one or two people, as opposed to someone listed comparatively lower, but by a greater number of people.

A good thumbnail example of this phenomenon can be found in the latest top-100 project, where Dale Hawerchuk placed higher on the prelim list than Mike Modano (to cite two players playing the same position), despite Modano appearing on double the number of lists. When time came to discuss their cases in detail during the 'top-200' project, Modano wound up placing over a dozen slots higher, surprising neither myself nor terribly many other people.

I believe a "constant" should be applied to all players listed. It doesn't have to be a big number- maybe something easy for the Project Co-Ordinators to work with, like '10.' So (to take our earlier example), this would have been enough to move Modano ahead of Hawerchuk on the previous prelim list, and would have increased the likelihood of having him come under discussion before Hawerchuk, which seems just.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The Hockey News' Top 100 Goaltenders list could be a reference - there were a few HoH regulars that contributed there.

Looking at this list I can see why 100 is too many.

 

[The Macho King]

I'm curious on any arguments to break up what is usually considered a clear top 8 for goalies. Vezina came out of the pre merger project looking really good.

I would love to get away from save percentage as our baseline. GSAA is ultimately still based on this, so it's a small step up.

Price is going to be ranked all over the place. By contemprary reputation he's in the 10-15 range. By award voting he's outside the top 30. I think the truth is in the middle.

A lot of the discussion in recent years has been centred on strong systems insulating goalies. It's why Benedict fell so hard in the pre merger. It's why guys like Lundqvist look strong and guys like Thomas look weak.

I look forward to Mike Farkas and Tim Thomas.

I wasn't part of the pre-merger project but like... how is his time on the Maroons not something that bolsters his resume? The team in front of him was not nearly as strong as in Ottawa.

IDK I guess we're going to get there in a few months so I'll stay my tongue until then.

 

[The Macho King]

I know I've made this point before, but I REALLY don't think we're well-served by this ordering of the preliminary list. It inordinately places relatively higher value on a player ranked really highly on the preliminary list of one or two people, as opposed to someone listed comparatively lower, but by a greater number of people.

A good thumbnail example of this phenomenon can be found in the latest top-100 project, where Dale Hawerchuk placed higher on the prelim list than Mike Modano (to cite two players playing the same position), despite Modano appearing on double the number of lists. When time came to discuss their cases in detail during the 'top-200' project, Modano wound up placing over a dozen slots higher, surprising neither myself nor terribly many other people.

I believe a "constant" should be applied to all players listed. It doesn't have to be a big number- maybe something easy for the Project Co-Ordinators to work with, like '10.' So (to take our earlier example), this would have been enough to move Modano ahead of Hawerchuk on the previous prelim list, and would have increased the likelihood of having him come under discussion before Hawerchuk, which seems just.

Instead of 1-80 points, maybe points based on the area of the vote they appear? 8 for top 10, 1 for 71-80. Won't completely fix it but should at least make it less significant.

 

[overpass]

I intend on diving into some of these pre-WW2 goalies who spent a lot of time in amateur hockey to see if anything can be gleaned from their years outside of the NHL. I started on this a few weeks ago, as I figured the goalie project would win out. Bill Durnan was first on my list and I've only got couple seasons left to look through. George Hainsworth will be next. I wish I'd have started with him instead - not a lot of newspaper coverage on 'Bull' Durnan up in Kirkland Lake...

I hope you don't mind if I post some of what I have on Bill Durnan. I've used some French-language sources.

First, an overview of Durnan's hockey career. The best sources here are his NHL Top 100 page and a 1947 article in Le Petit Journal (French).

Minor/junior hockey

• Durnan started playing goal as a boy in the Toronto area. He played for Westmoreland United Church, where his coach encouraged him to develop his ambidextrous style.
• At age 15, in 1931-32, he joined the North Toronto juniors and his club won the league championship.
• The next year, 1932-33, he joined the Sudbury Junior Wolves. Sudbury had won the Memorial Cup the previous season, led by the departing Toe Blake. They won the Northern Ontario championship in 32-33, but lost to the Newmarket Redmen in the playoffs. The Montreal Gazette described the 17 year old Durnan as "one of the most polished goaltenders in junior hockey." (The 1947 article in Le Petit Journal says Durnan won the Memorial Cup with Sudbury, but I don't think that's accurate.)

Senior amateur hockey

• Durnan moved on to senior hockey at age 18. In 1934-35, he played for the O.H.A. champion Toronto club. However, he suffered a painful knee injury off the ice in 1935, and Toronto dropped him. Durnan had previously been pursuing an NHL career and hoped to play for the Leafs, but this experience embittered him and he decided to leave his NHL dreams behind. Durnan didn't play hockey in the 1935-36 season.
• Bill Brydge, formerly of the New York Americans, recruited Durnan to play senior hockey in the mining town of Kirkland Lake. Durnan played for the Kirkland Lake Blue Devils for four seasons, 1936-37 through 1939-40.
• In the summer Durnan played for the Kirkland Lake fast pitch softball team as a pitcher. Some said he was the best pitcher in Canada, and a better pitcher than a goaltender. (He was banned from pitching in a Toronto league because he was too good.) Durnan always said he preferred softball, but hockey paid him seven thousand a year and softball paid him nothing.
• In the 1939-40 season, the Kirkland Lake team added a couple of ringers and loaded up for a run at the Allan Cup. (Senior amateur hockey at this point had been amateur in name only for years, and player movement was common.) They were initially not viewed as a favourite for the Allan Cup, but they dominated the playoffs, getting better as they went on, with an 11-1-2 playoff record and 66 goals scored against 28 allowed. They beat the Toronto Goodyears and then the Sydney Millionaires and the Montreal Royals. After beating the Royals they were finally recognized as an outstanding team, and they blew out Calgary in 3 games with scores of 8-5, 9-1, and 7-1. Marty Burke, the former NHLer who coached Calgary, said Kirkland Lake was the greatest senior amateur team he had ever seen, even better than the 1924 Toronto Granites of Harry Watson, Hooley Smith and Dunc Munro. The Kirkland Lake team was voted team of the year by the Canadian Press at the end of 1940, ahead of football's Winnipeg Blue Bombers.
• The Montreal Canadiens were coming off a 1939-40 season where they finished in the basement of the NHL, and they vigorously pursued top amateur players in the 1940 offseason to restock their club. Even before before the Allan Cup playoffs were over, the Canadiens were reported to have Durnan's rights, and he was believed to be in line to replace Bourque or Cude on the big club. Durnan reported to Montreal training camp in September as part of a group of 30 amateurs signed by the Canadiens. Spots on the NHL club and the New Haven AHL club were available, and the rest would get a chance to play with the associated Montreal Royals senior amateur team. Other amateurs at this camp were Elmer Lach, Ken Reardon, and Joe Benoit from out west, and Butch Bouchard and Paul Bibeault from Montreal - quite a haul for Montreal!
• The Canadiens did move on from Claude Bourque and Wilf Cude in goal. But they traded for Bert Gardiner from the AHL's Philadelphia Ramblers to fill their starting goalie position, and Durnan was assigned to the Montreal Royals. Durnan played for the Royals for three seasons, 1940-41 through 1942-43. He nearly won the Allan Cup for a second consecutive season in 1941, but lost to the Sydney Millionaires (who were led by Dick Kowcinak and John McCreedy, Durnan's former teammates from Kirkland Lake.)
• Paul Bibeault replaced Bert Gardiner in goal for the Canadiens in 1941-42, and Durnan continued to play for the Royals.
• Why did Durnan play three seasons for the Montreal Royals, and only join the Canadiens at the age of 27 for the 1943-44 season? It sounds like it was his choice. Durnan later said that he was torn between hockey and business and wasn't ready to commit to hockey, and also that he had always dreamed of playing for his hometown Toronto Maple Leafs, not the Canadiens.
• Per the NHL Top 100 writeup, Dick Irvin Jr remembers the most frustrating thing for his father (Montreal coach Dick Irvin Sr) was that Durnan played for the Royals, not the Canadiens. The Royals also played their home games in the Forum, and it was obvious that Durnan was better than the pro team's goalies.

Professional hockey

• Durnan's great record through 7 professional seasons is well known. He won 6 Vezina trophies for fewest goals allowed, and was 6 times voted the first team all-star goaltender by NHL coaches. He led his team to 4 league championships and two Stanley Cup victories.

Retirement

• Durnan retired at age 34. In a controversial move, he quit during the 1950 NHL playoffs, and it was said his anxiety and nerves got the best of him.
• Dink Carroll referenced the incident a couple of times in his columns and said Durnan developed a virus infection. He was given penicillin, and had an reaction that made him dizzy. After he was hit in the face by a shot and badly shaken, he decided he couldn't help the club in his condition and asked to be replaced. He retired after the season to pursue his business interests and spend more time with his family.
• Durnan said in a 1970 interview that if they had paid the same salaries when he played, they would have had to shoot him to get him off the ice.

Legacy

• In a 1958 poll of 70 sports writers and commentators for their all time all star hockey team, Bill Durnan finished first among goaltenders.
• Durnan finished 35th on the 1998 Hockey News Top 100 players. 6th among goalies, behind Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Roy, Dryden. Hasek and Brodeur were still mid-career.
• One of 15 goaltenders on the 2018 NHL Top 100 players list.
• In 1967, Gordie Howe rated Bill Durnan as the best goaltender he faced.

 

[Professor What]

I'll tell you someone else I'm looking forward to discussing, and that's Holecek. The stats are lacking (as in hard to find, not poor,) but the reputation is good, and WC three gold medals, outdueling Tretiak is nothing to sneeze at. He's a recent guy to dig a lot of stuff up on, but I wonder if there's something we're missing with him.

 

[nabby12]

The Hockey News' Top 100 Goaltenders list could be a reference - there were a few HoH regulars that contributed there.

Yes, I would highly suggest anyone helping with this HoH project to try and get their hands on a copy of this magazine from a few year's back! I was one of the contributors to this magazine and wrote a good chunk of the goalie bios.

 

[Michael Farkas]

One of the Czech goalies is horrendous...I forget which one, but it'll be obvious on the re-watch.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm curious on any arguments to break up what is usually considered a clear top 8 for goalies. Vezina came out of the pre merger project looking really good.

I would love to get away from save percentage as our baseline. GSAA is ultimately still based on this, so it's a small step up.

Price is going to be ranked all over the place. By contemprary reputation he's in the 10-15 range. By award voting he's outside the top 30. I think the truth is in the middle.

A lot of the discussion in recent years has been centred on strong systems insulating goalies. It's why Benedict fell so hard in the pre merger. It's why guys like Lundqvist look strong and guys like Thomas look weak.

I look forward to Mike Farkas and Tim Thomas.

There's a clear top 8?

 

[jigglysquishy]

There's a clear top 8?

Looking at the lists here or in other publications.

The three O6 goalies
The three 90s goalies
The two 70s goalies

I think Vezina or Brimsek are the strongest challengers. Or if someone is really low on Dryden because of his team strength/ career length/ international performance.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Looking at the lists here or in other publications.

The three O6 goalies
The three 90s goalies
The two 70s goalies

I think Vezina or Brimsek are the strongest challengers. Or if someone is really low on Dryden because of his team strength/ career length/ international performance.

No Tretiak?

Esposito or Parent?

 

[jigglysquishy]

No Tretiak?

Esposito or Parent?

70s goalies being Dryden and Tretiak

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

70s goalies being Dryden and Tretiak

Ah, OK.

 

[Professor What]

No Tretiak?

Esposito or Parent?

Tretiak is in the top 8. I'm not sure what the case for a Esposito or Parent that high would be.

 

[buffalowing88]

I'm looking forward to seeing where Tony Esposito does wind up here. I recently did a bit of a deep dive on posts about him in this forum and he's grown on me a lot. I think the individual hardware is pretty impressive, too.