HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

[seventieslord]

Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Changes since last year at 21st to 40th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 21-40

Rank | No. | Player | Pos | Height | Weight | Career | Prev Rank
21|16| Bobby Clarke |C|5'10"|176|1969-1984 |22 (+1)
22|11| Mark Messier |C|6'1"|205|1978-2004 |24 (+2)
23|68| Jaromir Jagr |RW|6'2"|240|1990-Present |25 (+2)
24|1| Terry Sawchuk |G|5'11"|190|1949-1970 |19 (-5)
25|1| Glenn Hall |G|5'11"|190|1952-53;1954-1971 |21 (-4)
26|19| Bryan Trottier |C|5'11"|195|1975-1994 |28 (+2)
27|4| Fred "Cyclone" Taylor |R/D|5'8"|165|1905-1923 |41 (+14)
28|4| Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde |C|5'9"|168|1904-1927;1928 |29 (+1)
29|22| Mike Bossy |RW|6'0"|185|1977-1987 |27 (-1)
30|7| Ted Lindsay |LW|5'8"|163|1944-1965 |23 (-7)
31|19| Larry Robinson |D|6'3"|220|1972-1992 |32 (+1)
32|19| Joe Sakic |C|5'11"|185|1988-2009 |33 (+1)
33|2| Viacheslav Fetisov |D|6'1"|215|1974-1975;1976-1998 |35 (+2)
34|15| Milt Schmidt |C|6"0"|185|1936-1942;1945-1955 |31 (-3)
35|17| Valeri Kharlamov |LW|5'8"|165|1967-1981 |30 (-5)
36|19| Steve Yzerman |C|5'11"|185|1983-2006 |36 (E)
37|30| Martin Brodeur |G|6'1"|205|1991-1992;1993-Present |34 (-3)
38|10| Syl Apps, Sr. |C|6'0"|185|1936-1948 |38 (E)
39|29| Ken Dryden |G|6'4"|207|1970-1979 |37 (-2)
40|5| Bill Cook |RW|5'10"|172|1922-1937 |43 (+3)

The 2 guys I thought should have been higher than last time were Lafleur and Bossy.
With my support they both did worse. I also liked Potvin over Lidstrom but that didn't work out either.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.

I agree. I had Dryden higher also.

I feel that the Devils were so good defensively that for many years it was really difficult to tell how good Brodeur was. His first two Vezina years his backups had significantly better goals against and save percentages. Both seasons Brodeur was fourth in goals against but not in the top 10 in save percentage in the league. Dryden always said playing behind the great Canadien's teams kept him from maintaining a high level of performance. Perhaps if Brodeur played on a different team he may have had less records but would be ranked higher here. Or perhaps not.

 

[seventieslord]

I agree. I had Dryden higher also.

I feel that the Devils were so good defensively that for many years it was really difficult to tell how good Brodeur was. His first two Vezina years his backups had significantly better goals against and save percentages. Both seasons Brodeur was fourth in goals against but not in the top 10 in save percentage in the league. Dryden always said playing behind the great Canadien's teams kept him from maintaining a high level of performance. Perhaps if Brodeur played on a different team he may have had less records but would be ranked higher here. Or perhaps not.

The thing about Dryden, too, is that he had a dominant regular season and playoff sv%, and Brodeur didn't always.

Dryden's playoff sv% rankings: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 5. (in his 8 qualifying playoffs - the only 8 he played in)
regular season: 1, 1, 1, 2, 5 (in the five seasons we know of: 75, 76, 77, 78, 79)

Brodeur's playoff sv% rankings: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. (in his 8 qualifying playoffs)
regular season: 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. (from 15 qualifying seasons)


*playoff rankings are among the 8 goalies with most playoff minutes that season.

* regular season rankings are among goalies with at least 25 GP.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur was ranked too highly last time and I think us compensating for his overratedness outweighed his last Vezina.

I definitely took what you said about Brodeur to heart, TDMM. But when I look at everything from a wide variety of statistical angles (AND consider the puckhandling x-factor) I see a great, not quite top-6, goalie who benefitted from TONS of team-dependent factors.

Take solace in the fact that the majority of the voters did not agree with me that Dryden was better and that he was virtually even with Tretiak.

My honest prediction is that whenever this is revisited, he will drop further, even if he pads his career with 1-2 more decent seasons. Tony Esposito + cups is a good comparison.

I had Brodeur, Dryden, and Tretiak all higher than they ended up/will end up. I don't agree with discrediting goalies for playing behind great defenses, especially since O6 goalies are somehow immune from this argument. Part of what makes a defensive unit so cohesive is confidence in the goaltender.

Frankly, I think a better comparison for Brodeur is Glenn Hall + more cups. Reliability, durability, longevity, consistency, lack of a dominant peak compared to some contemporaries.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Changes since last year at 21st to 40th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 21-40

Rank | No. | Player | Pos | Height | Weight | Career | Prev Rank
21|16| Bobby Clarke |C|5'10"|176|1969-1984 |22 (+1)
22|11| Mark Messier |C|6'1"|205|1978-2004 |24 (+2)
23|68| Jaromir Jagr |RW|6'2"|240|1990-Present |25 (+2)
24|1| Terry Sawchuk |G|5'11"|190|1949-1970 |19 (-5)
25|1| Glenn Hall |G|5'11"|190|1952-53;1954-1971 |21 (-4)
26|19| Bryan Trottier |C|5'11"|195|1975-1994 |28 (+2)
27|4| Fred "Cyclone" Taylor |R/D|5'8"|165|1905-1923 |41 (+14)
28|4| Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde |C|5'9"|168|1904-1927;1928 |29 (+1)
29|22| Mike Bossy |RW|6'0"|185|1977-1987 |27 (-1)
30|7| Ted Lindsay |LW|5'8"|163|1944-1965 |23 (-7)
31|19| Larry Robinson |D|6'3"|220|1972-1992 |32 (+1)
32|19| Joe Sakic |C|5'11"|185|1988-2009 |33 (+1)
33|2| Viacheslav Fetisov |D|6'1"|215|1974-1975;1976-1998 |35 (+2)
34|15| Milt Schmidt |C|6"0"|185|1936-1942;1945-1955 |31 (-3)
35|17| Valeri Kharlamov |LW|5'8"|165|1967-1981 |30 (-5)
36|19| Steve Yzerman |C|5'11"|185|1983-2006 |36 (E)
37|30| Martin Brodeur |G|6'1"|205|1991-1992;1993-Present |34 (-3)
38|10| Syl Apps, Sr. |C|6'0"|185|1936-1948 |38 (E)
39|29| Ken Dryden |G|6'4"|207|1970-1979 |37 (-2)
40|5| Bill Cook |RW|5'10"|172|1922-1937 |43 (+3)

Biggest movers:

Cylcone Taylor (+14)
Voters clearly felt he was underrated last time, in large part due to initial unfamiliarity with him during the submission of initial lists last year.

Ted Lindsay (-7)
There was discussion this time that Howe and Kelly were the real keys to the 50s Red Wings, and this most likely hurt Lindsay. Lindsay was also perhaps hurt by the new voting method of ranking all the players available, rather than just the ones the voter want added each round (a system that hurts controversial selections compared to last time).

Valeri Kharlamov (-5)
Voters wondered why he was ranked so much higher than guys like Fetisov and Makarov. Also, probably hurt by the new voting method.

Terry Sawchuk (-5)
Like Lindsay, there was dicussion that Howe and Kelly were keys to the 50s Red Wings. Also, see Hall.

Glenn Hall (-4)
Voters may have wanted to increase the seperation between Hasek/Plante/Roy and Sawchuk/Hall, or decrease the seperation between Sawchuk/Hall and Brodeur/Dryden.

Martin Brodeur (-3)
Already discussed upthread. Controversial players are hurt by the new voting system compared to last time. This likely also affected Dryden among goalies (-2).

Milt Schmidt (-3)
Just a small correction? I'm not sure about this one. Voters may have wanted him closer to Apps and behind Sakic.

Bill Cook (+3)
There might be a general trend of raising pre-WW2 players a bit from last time.

 

[seventieslord]

A 3-spot rise for Cook doesn't satisfy me. He should not be 25+ spots behind Howie Morenz.

 

[FissionFire]

One thing to realize with Brodeur is that his dropping seems to be a product of the overall value goalies have been given this time around. Aside from Hasek and Roy, every single goalie so far has dropped at least 2 spots.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Changes since last year at 41st to 60th:

Top 100 Hockey Players, 41-60

Rank | No. | Player | Pos | Height | Weight | Career | Prev Rank
41|24| Chris Chelios |D|6'1"|190|1983-Present|42 (+1)
42|22| Brad Park |D|6'0"|190|1968-1985|40 (-2)
43|5| Bernard Geoffrion |RW|5'9"|170|1950-1964;1966-1968|39 (-4)
44|20| Vladislav Tretiak |G|6'1"|202|1968-1984|52 (+8)
45|7/4/11| Joe Malone |C|5'10"|150|1910-1924|50 (+5)
46|7| Paul Coffey |D|6'0"|200|1980-2001|T-46 (E)
47|9| Charlie Conacher |RW|6'0"|210|1929-1941|45 (-2)
48|7/17| Frank Boucher |C|5'9"|185|1921-1922;1926-1938;1943-1944|59 (+11)
49|27| Frank Mahovlich |LW|6'1"|205|1956-1978|49 (E)
50|16| Marcel Dionne |C|5'8"|185|1971-1989|48 (-2)
51|7| Francis "King" Clancy |D|5'7"|155|1921-1937|T-53 (+2)
52|3| Pierre Pilote |D|5'10"|178|1955-1969|51 (-1)
53|1| Clint Benedict |G|5'11"|185|1912-1930|62 (+9)
54|1| Bill Durnan |G|6'0"|190|1943-1950|44 (-10)
55|16| Henri Richard |C|5'7"|160|1955-1975|57 (+2)
56|9| Andy Bathgate |RW|6'0"|180|1952-1968;1970-1971|56 (E)
57|22| Max Bentley |C|5'9"|158|1940-1943;1945-1954|T-46 (-11)
58|5| Aubrey "Dit" Clapper |RW/D|6'2"|195|1927-1947|T-53 (-5)
59|1| Walter "Turk" Broda |G|5'9"|180|1936-1943;1945-1952|60 (+1)
60|17| Earl Seibert |D|6'2"|198|1931-1946|61 (+1)

Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10

 

[seventieslord]

What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.

Hard to say. He didn't really have better stats domestically or internationally, than his linemates. One of them will end up being voted in around 75th and another will likely not be voted on. Still, he was supposed to be so much better than them.

 

[seventieslord]

Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10

Wow, a very satisfying 40-60, with the previously overrated Bentley & Durnan moving down, and the previously underrated Boucher, Benedict, and Tretiak moving up!

 

[pappyline]

Biggest movers:
Frank Boucher +11
Clint Benedict +9
Vladislav Tretiak +8

Max Bentley -11
Bill Durnan -10

Disappointing to me. The only one I agree with is Durnan. Starting to think we did a better job first time.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Definitely glad to see Benedict and Boucher move up. Surprised Bentley fell so far. I've been convinced that I underrated Henri Richard (probably had him around 75th on my original list), but I defintely wouldn't have him (or Bathgate) ahead of Max.

 

[jarek]

What if Kharlamov would have played in the NHL? What kinda stats would he have had. I read somewhere that he was arguably as talented as Lemieux or Gretzky.

They said the same thing about Makarov.

 

[KingGallagherXI]

Personally I think that Mike Bossy is strongly underrated in this list. He has the highest goal per game ratio of all time and no other player ever scored as much 50-goal seasons (9), which he did in 10 seasons.

Call me crazy, but I would have placed him about 5th forward of all time, and at the very least I think he should have been placed just above Lafleur in the 15-20 range.

 

[seventieslord]

Personally I think that Mike Bossy is strongly underrated in this list. He has the highest goal per game ratio of all time and no other player ever scored as much 50-goal seasons (9), which he did in 10 seasons.

Call me crazy, but I would have placed him about 5th forward of all time, and at the very least I think he should have been placed just above Lafleur in the 15-20 range.

If Bossy played 5 more years he would have seen his goals per game average decline significantly. Would this make him a worse player?

You are free to present your arguments for why he's better than guys like Mikita, Morenz, Beliveau, Richard, and Clarke. I personally don't see it.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Until Valeri Kharlamov is in the top 5, the list lacks credibility. He is considered the greatest russian player who ever lived so if he's going to be on this list, he has to be top 5. Keep in mind, Canada could not stop this guy during the 1972 super series until bobby clarke "intervened". PS - i'm not russian.

Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?

 

[tommygunn]

Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?

I don't see Balderis in the list..

 

[Johnny Engine]

Good call. I always forget that some of those Soviet guys weren't Russian.

 

[VMBM]

Obviously I'm late for this mini-flamefest, but here's a top-10 list that this guy might like:

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Niklas Lidstrom
4. Valeri Kharlamov
5. Chris Chelios
6. Teemu Sellanne
7. Zdeno Chara
8. Ken Hodge
9. Arturs Irbe
10. Erich Khunhackl

After all, what list would be complete without the greatest Latvian ever (put down the broken bottle Sandis, you're still #2) in the top 10?

Selänne over Kurri?

Anyway, I think for instance the 1976 Canada Cup all-star selections followed this, er, mindset (guys like Maltsev and especially Salming were no doubt far and away the best players on their team [and Milan Novy played very well too], but no room for Gilbert Perreault and/or Denis Potvin? C'mon.)

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

They said the same thing about Makarov.

They never said he was as good as Gretzky... but anyway, he has the 3rd highest career shooting percentage (among players with 100+ NHL goals) all time, and he didn't even come here until he was 31. He scored 8 playoff goals on 26 shots as a 35 year old. He certainly could have had sick NHL stats if he played over here from age 19.

 

[seventieslord]

They never said he was as good as Gretzky... but anyway, he has the 3rd highest career shooting percentage (among players with 100+ NHL goals) all time, and he didn't even come here until he was 31. He scored 8 playoff goals on 26 shots as a 35 year old. He certainly could have had sick NHL stats if he played over here from age 19.

You may have misunderstood jarek. he's a BIG Makarov supporter.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You may have misunderstood jarek. he's a BIG Makarov supporter.

Indeed. And indeed.

 

[Outside99*]

Kharlamov at #35 shows that the system to generate the top 100 has issues with respect to assigning rank to foreign players. Isn't he considered the best Russian hockey player of all time?

He certainly was the best player on the ice from both teams in the '72 Super Series.