HOH Top-60 Pre-Merger Players Of All-Time

[rmartin65]

Here is what the list looks like by birth year (rank in parentheses)

1855: Tom Paton (61)
1856:
1857:
1858:
1859:
1860:
1861:
1862:
1863: Allan Cameron (53)
1864:
1865:
1866: Jack Campbell (37), Dolly Swift (58)
1867:
1868:
1869:
1870:
1871: Weldy Young (31), Haviland Routh (54)
1872:
1873: Mike Grant (25), Alf Smith (33)
1874: Dan Bain (32)
1875: Harvey Pulford (23)
1876: Bob MacDougall (45)
1877: Paddy Moran (36), Jack Marshall (56), Harry Trihey (62), Bouse Hutton (67)
1878: Dickie Boon (60), Riley Hern (65)
1879: Hod Stuart (13)
1880: Russell Bowie (6)
1881: Percy LeSueur (30), Joe Hall (41)
1882: Frank McGee (18)
1883: Tommy Phillips (9), Lester Patrick (20), Didier Pitre (26), Si Griffis (49), Ernie Russell (55), Harry Smith (70)
1884: Cyclone Taylor (2), Marty Walsh (48)
1885: Hugh Lehman (11), Frank Patrick (43)
1886: Moose Johnson (16), Art Ross (28), Tommy Smith (38)
1887: Newsy Lalonde (3), Georges Vezina (5), Tommy Dunderdale (46)
1888: Hap Holmes (27), Jack Walker (35)
1889: Dubbie Kerr (63), Harry Hyland (68), Eddie Oatman (69)
1890: Sprague Cleghorn (4), Joe Malone (7), Eddie Gerard (8), Harry Cameron (21), Bernie Morris (39), Lloyd Cook (57), Jack Darragh (66)
1891: Cy Denneny (14), Frank Foyston (24), Herb Gardiner (40), Gord Roberts (47), Art Duncan (51)
1892: Clint Benedict (10), Babe Dye (22), Dick Irvin (44), Punch Broadbent (52)
1893: Frank Nighbor (1), Joe Simpson (34)
1894: Mickey MacKay (17), Jack Adams (64)
1895: Frank Fredrickson (12), Duke Keats (19)
1896: Georges Boucher (15), Reg Noble (42)
1897: Carson Cooper (59)
1898: George Hay (29), Harry Oliver (50)
1899:
1900:

 

[jigglysquishy]

When do you guys think we'll get the aggregate list and voting records?

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

The biggest shoutout of all goes to @rmartin65 who did the majority of the deep research that really drove this project.

I cannot second this enough. Thanks to @rmartin65 doing a deep dive into the early AHAC through the ECHA, we now have a very good understanding of the strongest league of the amateur era, and we now have pretty good statistics for the players of the era (yay, assists!).

Thanks to @seventieslord as well for doing the administrative work for the project.

Finally, I would be remiss to also not thank everyone else who contributed. I learned a lot from everyone else.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Agreed with the above posts. This was an enjoyable and educational 5/6/7/however many months it's been, and the project admins deserve many thanks. Definitely my favourite project I've been a part of, though I've only been involved in a handful.

So with the list all done up, anything stand out when looking at it? A few stray observations:

- I wrote up a few posts for Frank Frederickson, and was happy to vote him in comfortably as the next best C after the bunch that were eligible from the first round. Notably, I liked him ahead of MacKay, who was probably the closest career comparable. I still like Frederickson over MacKay, but I think I'd bump up Mickey so that he's closer to Frank than he is to Duke Keats.

- I'd probably put Bowie in the top 5, maybe even into 4th.

- I think I was the only person to not rank Jack Campbell when he came up. I did vote for Allan Cameron when he came up, many rounds later. The large gap between the two stands out for me.

 

[seventieslord]

When do you guys think we'll get the aggregate list and voting records?

The tables can be easily posted, as long as we don't need it to be separated out by voter. If we do that, it gets a lot more labor-intensive.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Great research by @rmartin65 who was the cornerstone of this project. He was in the driver seat and drove it from Day 1 to the end. No rmartin65, no project.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Thanks to @seventieslord and @rmartin65 for putting up with me and my voting delays, and sending me reminders every round. Life got in the way but happy that I managed to vote every round in-extremis.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Because of @rmartin65's research this project didn't turn into a simple rehearsal of past projects and/or ATD rankings, which would have been pretty bad and pointless. Exploring the pre-1910 eras was crucial and he did it and shared his findings with all of us. I learned a lot from his work.

Many others contributed as well. Thank you.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think the biggest win with the project was the increased knowledge and respect shown to the amateur era. Going through the other top lists and ATD we've done a good job of honouring the 1910-1926 time period. Guys like Nighbor, Vezina, Cleghorn, or Cook (rightfully) got ranked really high in the top 100.

Our deep dives into players like Russell Bowie, Weldy Young, Frank McGee, Alf Smith, Jack Campbell were the highlight for me. @rmartin65 s season by season analysis really helped to shine a light on these players.

If I was to criticize my own list, I was too harsh on pre 1905 hockey and way too harsh on pre 1895 hockey.

There's about a half dozen amateur era players that should really be in the HHOF and aren't.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I was saying to @rmartin65 in PMs once we can see lists and ballots I'll be really interested in talking about the individual rounds with less time pressure.

 

[Professor What]

I'll go ahead and tell on myself. There was one round that I somehow forgot a certain player and left him off of my ballot even though I felt like he should go on the list at that point. I don't remember which round or which player it was right now. Much to my relief, he got onto the list in that round.

 

[rmartin65]

I think the biggest win with the project was the increased knowledge and respect shown to the amateur era. Going through the other top lists and ATD we've done a good job of honouring the 1910-1926 time period. Guys like Nighbor, Vezina, Cleghorn, or Cook (rightfully) got ranked really high in the top 100.

I think so too. I really hope that we can carry this momentum into whenever we start re-doing the position lists (it has been over a decade now, probably about time).

There's about a half dozen amateur era players that should really be in the HHOF and aren't.

Agreed!

I was saying to @rmartin65 in PMs once we can see lists and ballots I'll be really interested in talking about the individual rounds with less time pressure.

Yeah, I'm hoping we can get some follow-on conversations here. There is still a lot we can delve into.

 

[rmartin65]

- I'd probably put Bowie in the top 5, maybe even into 4th.

3rd. I'm calling it, he'll supplant Lalonde for that third spot eventually, even if it takes me another decade to do it.

- I think I was the only person to not rank Jack Campbell when he came up. I did vote for Allan Cameron when he came up, many rounds later. The large gap between the two stands out for me.

I think this is a good call-out. I have zero qualms with having Campbell ranked ahead (and I don't think we overrated Campbell; I still have him higher than we ended up placing him), but a 16 spot gap seems questionable to me... as is the fact that we ignored the early Montreal HC teams then 'inducted' three of them over the span of 8 spots (53, 54, 61).

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think so too. I really hope that we can carry this momentum into whenever we start re-doing the position lists (it has been over a decade now, probably about time).

This gets to an interesting point. Where do we go from here? I've been talking to @seventieslord and there's interest in a top women's project. That's probably the most interesting project, though the amount of research is pretty daunting.

Re-do positions?

I'm not really interested in peaks, though I recognize some people want it. Coaches is functionally impossible. I don't want to re do Euros or playoffs.

I'm open to wherever we go.

 

[Professor What]

I'm not disinterested in a women's project, but I'd probably have to be a spectator. I don't know enough and wouldn't know where to start to compile an original list.

I'm also not interested in a peaks project and probably wouldn't take part in that. I agree that coaches is pretty much impossible. Maybe some of the oldest projects could be redone?

 

[rmartin65]

I know I opened the door to this line of discussion, but I'd prefer to keep this thread more on this project as opposed to speculation on what comes next.

Here is the expected vs actual result by position table:

Position	Actual Result	Expected Result
Goalie	9/70 = 12.86%	10/70 = 14.29%
Defense	21/70 = 30%	20/70 = 28.57%
Forward	40/70 = 57.14%	40/70 = 57.14%

Pretty good. Short one goalie, up one defender. Of course, this is a pretty high-altitude view of the project- none of the last 10 additions to the list were defenders, which means that 35% of our top 60 were defenders. That makes me pause a bit.

 

[Professor What]

I know I opened the door to this line of discussion, but I'd prefer to keep this thread more on this project as opposed to speculation on what comes next.

Here is the expected vs actual result by position table:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Position[/TD]
[TD]Actual Result[/TD]
[TD]Expected Result[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Goalie[/TD]
[TD]9/70 = 12.86%[/TD]
[TD]10/70 = 14.29%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Defense[/TD]
[TD]21/70 = 30%[/TD]
[TD]20/70 = 28.57%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Forward[/TD]
[TD]40/70 = 57.14%[/TD]
[TD]40/70 = 57.14%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Pretty good. Short one goalie, up one defender. Of course, this is a pretty high-altitude view of the project- none of the last 10 additions to the list were defenders, which means that 35% of our top 60 were defenders. That makes me pause a bit.

You know this group can't stay on topic!

On a more serious note, I get what you're saying about so much of the earlier part of the project being defenders, and I'm not surprised something like that happened. I still feel like this is a project that deserves a second look in a few years. There was a lot of groundwork laid here, but I think it was always going to be hard to get it "right" the first time. The knowledge gained this time should help make a future pass that much better.

 

[Habsfan18]

I feel ridiculous for having Smokey Harris 24th(!) on my initial top-80 ballot…

 

[jigglysquishy]

I feel ridiculous for having Smokey Harris 24th(!) on my initial top-80 ballot…

If it makes you feel better I had Ernie Russel 27th.

 

[Habsfan18]

If it makes you feel better I had Ernie Russel 27th.

I had him 29th, haha. I definitely learned a lot about the earlier era players over the past few months. Looking at that initial list I definitely overrated and underrated numerous players. It’ll be interesting to compare lists when they’re eventually released.

 

[Kevinsane]

Birth places:

Frank Nighbor: Pembroke, ON
Cyclone Taylor: Tara, ON
Newsy Lalonde: Cornwall, ON
Sprague Cleghor: Montreal, QC
Georges Vezina: Chicoutimi, QC
Russell Bowie: Montreal, QC
Joe Malone: Sillery, QC
Eddie Gerard: Ottawa, ON
Tommy Phillips: Rat Portage, ON
Clint Benedict: Ottawa, ON
Hugh Lehman: Pembroke, ON
Frank Fredrickson: Winnipeg, MB
Hod Stuart: Ottawa, ON
Cy Denneny: Farran's Point, ON
Georges Boucher: Ottawa, ON
Moose Johnson: Montreal, QC
Mickey MacKay: Chesley, ON
Frank McGee: Ottawa, ON
Duke Keats: Montreal, QC
Lester Patrick: Drummondville, QC
Harry Cameron: Pembroke, ON
Babe Dye: Hamilton, ON
Harvey Pulford: Toronto, ON
Frank Foyston: Minesing, ON
Mike Grant: Montreal, QC
Didier Pitre: Valleyfield, QC
Hap Holmes: Aurora, ON
Art Ross: Naughton, ON
George Hay: Listowel, ON
Percy LeSueur: Quebec, QC

It really did take forever for Westerners to make their mark as professionals.

 

[Professor What]

It really did take forever for Westerners to make their mark as professionals.

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, we ended up with 6 players born outside of Ontario and Quebec. And half of those were born outside of Canada (UK and Australia). Manitoba was the only western province represented at all.

 

[rmartin65]

I feel ridiculous for having Smokey Harris 24th(!) on my initial top-80 ballot…

If it makes you feel better I had Ernie Russel 27th.

I had him 29th, haha. I definitely learned a lot about the earlier era players over the past few months. Looking at that initial list I definitely overrated and underrated numerous players. It’ll be interesting to compare lists when they’re eventually released.

This is the kind of stuff we should be proud of! It shows that we all took the time to really look over the information and didn't just default to previously held ideas and/or (when applicable) ATD canon.

My list would look drastically different if I made it today, and I am really happy about that.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I believe our highest ranked player that I did not rank was Allen Cameron, who I knew zero about coming into this project.

I definitely learned a lot about 1885-1895 players. Coming into this project I knew functionally zero.

 

[rmartin65]

Player(s) with the least amount of support: Harry Trihey and Dan Bain with zero teammates on the list. Jack Campbell and Dolly Swift are honorable mentions, as they each only had one teammate make it (each other for only 4 games in 1887). Am I missing someone

Player(s) with the most support: I don’t know, does anybody have the number? I’m guessing it is either one of the Nighbor Sens or someone who bounced around a bit and landed on a couple strong teams. Cyclone Taylor, maybe? Played with Portage Lakes in the IPHL (I think with Riley Hern and Joe Hall), a very strong Ottawa HC team (Walsh, Phillips, Pulford, LeSueur, Alf Smith), then moved to the Renfrew super team (adding Lester Patrick, Frank Patrick, Newsy Lalonde, and Sprague Cleghorn), before finishing his career with the Vancouver Millionaires (Jack Adams, Si Griffis, Hugh Lehman, MacKay, Nighbor, Doc Roberts, and Pitre). That is 18 names, going to be hard to top that. @ResilientBeast come correct me if I misrepresented Taylor anywhere!