HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 7

Professor What

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Getting back to Fleury, I do see him as something of a complier. He's second all-time in wins. Great. But that's perhaps the goalie stat that I hate the most. I mean, I guess it can show that a guy is a workhorse, but he was certainly never a Brodeur there, or it can show that he was solid for a while. I can give him that. I just feel like we're still at a part of the list where I want something better than solid.

I think the most apt comparison I can make is Mike Gartner. The guy played some pretty good hockey for a really long time. But I think that most here feel that he doesn't belong in the Hall. This list will get there, but it's not there yet. I think I'm warming up more to the idea of CuJo in the Hall though. I've always been borderline on him, but I think we're in the area that he belongs. We've still got Hall of Famers coming. I don't want to go down the error of so and so is in so that means this guy should be in, but I do think that CuJo keeps company with, if not sits ahead of some of the guys that I think are rightly in.
 

Bear of Bad News

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I would like everyone to actively participate as well, and if the current discourse is preventing some people from being willing to put their opinions out there, I want to do what we need to do to ensure that we can do that.

Please treat one another as colleagues or, dare I say, friends. We all share a common interest and it's our combined background that makes this project (and others) successful.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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Curtis Joseph never made a Cup final, but he did make two Conference Finals. Since they are both losses, I'll also include the previous series he won.

1999 Playoffs
Penguins beat Leafs 2-0
Shots: Leafs 20 Penguins 19
Leafs 0 Penguins 1

The Leader-Post· May 8, 1999



Leafs win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 25 Penguins 27
Leafs 1 Penguins 1

The Leader-Post· May 10, 1999



Penguins win 4-3
Shots: Leafs 29 Penguins 21
Leafs 1 Penguins 2

The Leader-Post· May 12, 1999



Leafs win 3-2 in OT
Shots: Leafs 30 Penguins 14
Leafs 2 Penguins 2

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette · ‎May 14, 1999



Leafs win 4-1
Shots: Leafs 20 Penguins 16
Leafs 3 Penguins 2

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 16, 1999



Leafs win 4-3 in OT
Shots: Leafs 30 Penguins 28
Leafs 4 Penguins 2

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 18, 1999


Good series overall. Joseph is the most praised Leaf and second most praised player after Jagr. Leafs do a good job of preventing shots.



Sabres beat Leafs 5-4
Shots: Leafs 32 Sabres 21
Leafs 0 Sabres 1

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 24, 1999



Leafs beat Sabres 6-3
Shots: Leafs 28 Sabres 33
Leafs 1 Sabres 1

The Day · ‎May 26, 1999



Sabres win 4-2. Hasek returns.
Shots: Leafs 26 Sabres 24
Leafs 1 Sabres 2

Observer-Reporter · ‎May 28, 1999



Sabres win 5-2. Joseph pulled after two periods
Shots: Leafs 33 Sabres 32
Leafs 1 Sabres 3

The Vindicator · ‎May 30, 1999



Sabres win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 24 Sabres 22
Leafs 1 Sabres 4

The Leader-Post· ‎Jun 1, 1999


Well, the Sabres miss Hasek for two games and still win the series 4-1. As the last line said, Toronto needed Joseph to steal them a game and he didn't.


2002 Playoffs
Sens beat Leafs 5-0
Shots: Leafs 27 Sens 33
Leafs 0 Sens 1

Beaver Country Times · ‎May 5, 2002



Leafs beat Sens 3-2 in triple OT
Shots: Leafs 42 Sens 56
Leafs 1 Sens 1

The Leader-Post · ‎May 6, 2002



Sens win 3-2
Shots: Leafs 28 Sens 29
Leafs 1 Sens 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 7, 2002



Leafs win 2-1
Shots: Leafs 24 Sens 25
Leafs 2 Sens 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 9, 2002



Sens win 4-2
Shots: Leafs 28 Sens 21
Leafs 2 Sens 3

No relevant comments. Joseph has an .850SV%


Leafs win 4-3
Shots: Leafs 19 Sens 23
Leafs 3 Sens 3

The Leader-Post · ‎May 14, 2002



Leafs win 3-0
Shots: Leafs 27 Sens 19
Leafs 4 Sens 3

The Leader-Post · ‎May 15, 2002



Leafs beat Hurricanes 2-1
Shots: Leafs 24 Hurricanes 32
Leafs 1 Hurricanes 0

The Leader-Post · ‎May 17, 2002



Carolina wins 2-1 in OT
Shots: Leafs 27 Hurricanes 33
Leafs 1 Hurricanes 1

No relevant comments

Carolina wins 2-1 in OT
Shots: Leafs 21 Hurricanes 17 (oof)
Leafs 1 Hurricanes 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 22, 2002



Hurricanes win 3-0
Shots: Leafs 31 Hurricanes 15
Leafs 1 Hurricanes 3

No relevant comments


Leafs win 1-0
Shots: Leafs 19 Hurricanes 27
Leafs 2 Hurricanes 3

The Leader-Post · ‎May 27, 2002



Hurricanes win 2-1 in OT
Shots: Leafs 36 Hurricanes 35
Leafs 2 Hurricanes 4

The Leader-Post · ‎May 29, 2002



A good, not great run. Back-to-back losses to Carolina where they don't hit 20 shots hurts. Getting cleanly outplayed by Irbe hurts. The Leafs media is all over Joseph and it sounds like his hand was never close to game-ready.


Overall, definitely get the picture of an inconsistent goalie with a good, not great team in front of him. I don't think he ever collapses in the losses, but he gets thoroughly outplayed by the opposing goalie both times.
Thanks for posting. This is largely consistent with what I remember. (I would have watched all, or almost all, of these games - not that my memory is infallible 20+ years later).

In 1999, he was excellent in round 1. In round 2 he struggled with peak Jagr (understandable) but was fairly good overall. The conference finals against Buffalo was probably a coin flip had Hasek been healthy. Joseph had a couple of really bad games and only went 1-1 facing off against an inexperienced Dwayne Roloson. Definitely a disappointing end, as this series was winnable. (Regardless, the Leafs would have been trounced by Dallas).

The 2002 summary excludes the 7 game war against the Islanders. That was one of the roughest series of the Dead Puck Era. Joseph was fairly good overall (but he had a couple of bad games). The entire team looked awful in game 1 against Ottawa (the Leafs only had one day to rest while the Sens had a full week - Joseph wasn't good but the entire team was horrendously outplayed). But he was lights out the rest of the way. Joseph held the Sens to 13 goals over the next 6 games (one of which went into triple OT). Keep in mind that Sundin missed the entire series. The Leafs absolutely should have lost, but Joseph won the series for them (and Gary Roberts).

I'll defend Joseph's play in the 2002 conference finals. He was excellent. "Outplayed by Arturs Irbe" isn't a great look, but I didn't see much difference in the actual performance. To the extent Joseph was blamed (and I don't recall much at the time), it was scapegoating. The Leafs big three scorers (Sundin, Mogilny and Roberts) combined for 2 goals and 2 assists in a six game series. The Leafs scored 3 goals in the final 4 games. If I've added this up correctly, they scored 4 goals over the final 355 minutes (0.67 goals per 60). Joseph did everything he realistically could have done. (Once again, the Leafs would have been absolutely trounced in the SC Finals, so the drought would have continued, but the forwards need to take the blame for this one).

Overall, during the Leafs two deep runs, I think Joseph had three excellent series (1999 Flyers, 2002 Sens, 2002 Canes), two good but not great series (1999 Pens, 2002 Isles), and one bad series (1999 Sabres).
 

jigglysquishy

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How are people feeling about International play?

Joseph had a good, not great 1996 World Cup. He was excellent against Sweden, and just okay against the US. How much does it matter in single elimination games? He ended up getting pulled by his own NHL coach after one bad game at the 2002 Olympics.

Fleury was the third-string goalie in 2010 and didn't make 2014 or 2016. Mike Smith made the team over him in 2014.

Quick had a great 2014 Olympics. He lets in 1 goal on 37 shots against Canada and still loses. Hard to blame him. And I remember him getting bombarded.

Barrasso was good at the 1984 CC. Vanbiesbrouck got the starter nod in 1987. Mike Richter got it in 1991, 1996, 1998, and 2002. Does it matter that American coaches routinely did not pick Barrasso or Vanbiesbrouck?

Vachon was stellar in 1976, but with arguably Canada's best roster ever in front of him. Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Savard in front of him is about as easy as it gets for a goalie.

Kiprusoff was excellent at the 2004 World Cup and hurt at the 2006 Olympics. He was poor at the 2010 Olympics.

Everyone else is too old.
 
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Yozhik v tumane

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We’re blessed to share in all of your efforts into researching and discussing this project.

I don’t think it’s fair to make out Farkas as someone profoundly disrespectful towards the history of the game or that he’s someone particularly biased towards modern goaltending. He’s a vigorous debater and I get that sometimes one may feel like he’s out to score points off you or whatever, but as an onlooker, I don’t think him straying from general consensus/common sense picks and defending his informed opinions as comprehensively and transparently as he does in any way hurts this process. Certainly nobody would hurt from following the above advice from @Bear of Bad News, I think you’re able to discuss your opinions in a respectful manner.

Please don’t clam up because you don’t care for one participant’s controversial takes, all of your contributions are making the project worthwhile to follow.
 

Michael Farkas

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Before anyone else births a litter of kittens here, let me at least go out with good information haha

Major transition met with adaptability by Miikka Kiprusoff.

I think it's no secret anymore that the rule changes and style of play changes that came about on the other side of the Big Sleep in 2005 had a major effect on goaltending. A lot of goalies that had success in the DPE or were developing in the DPE were wiped out. Very few were elite on both sides. Brodeur and Luongo are both already up on the board, but Miikka Kiprusoff ought not to wait much longer in my opinion.

Now, history is a little friendlier to names like Brodeur and Luongo...while Kipper's name doesn't quite have the same punch. But it's not for lack of ability.

Like Brodeur, Kipper didn't over-react and throw himself out of the play. But also like Brodeur, he fought like hell to make sure he stayed in the play as effectively as he could. Usually this was because the puck was at the end of its path and he (they?) could commit at that point. As opposed to making the first move, going all in on that move, and then if something else happened - you'd be sunk. I've detailed that with some other goalies already, I won't mention any names as to not incite a riot haha

One of the old mantra's in some goalie schools is "head, hands, feet" - as the order of operations for aligning one's self to a shot. I feel like Braden Holtby sort of brought that vernacular back into semi-popular hockey circles at his peak. Kipper was all about that lifestyle. He had two modes, "head, hands, feet" and "fishing" and I have no clips of him fishing coming up.

Let's take a look...

Watch here for just 15-18 seconds (should start at 9:47).



It shouldn't be too difficult to track goalie and puck in the same line of vision as the puck basically magnetized to the kick plate.

Here's a freeze frame within the same second.

Screenshot-2024-11-27-152913.png

Head tracking. Now, he's hybrid goalie. He'd prefer to stay upright, but has butterfly as a save selection. So low angle shots don't bother him (unlike a lot of the RVH goalies today...like Matt Murray, who has been mentioned...that blocking style, making the first move and being stuck with it, that's not a positive usually...and that's not Kipper). You see the stick is protecting the passing lane adjacent to the net as well. He kept that handy. Though, he was repulsive at playing the puck outside of the crease haha

Screenshot-2024-11-27-153001.png

Sorry for the grain, but in case people don't want to click the video. The puck has transitioned to the other side of the net. But it's not actionable for the goalie, so he feels no need to throw himself anywhere. First, let me identify (head), now let's bring the torso with - you see the stick hand is going to swing, the glove hand is obscured but it's moving too (hands)...last, I'll bring my feet. His right skate is still on the far side post.

This seems a little counterintuitive to some, but it's quite effective in the right hands. Now, Kipper was very mobile, he wasn't all over the floor, and he had ultra fast extremities...so he could take the time to scan...sort of a measure twice, cut once, sort of deal.

Let's watch it in real action.



Same movement. He identifies the shooter, chooses a save selection, and while he does give up a semi-uncontrolled rebound, he's in a position where now he can sell out into that because there's only so many places that puck was gonna reasonably go after that save and he was gonna be there to pounce. That's a very Brodeur-ian sequence, albeit maybe deeper in the net than Marty would play.

His ability to track the puck, keep his feet, and move with the play is what allowed him to transition so well to the new more open style of play. But it wasn't just his lateral mobility that made him useful, he also had some speed matching going back too (not that he had a lot of room, he played pretty deep).

Watch the save here...



Good depth, out to challenge, doesn't over-commit, moves laterally AND back with the shooter who is easily able to slip loose of his check...

"Ok, so why didn't we get more greatness out of him?"

Always a good question. One, he got a late start. He was like 5'10" and wasn't a butterfly goalie. So, it took a while for anyone to trust him. But once they realized it (with a little help from Warren Strelow), then he really got after it. 1.69 GAA - I mean, come on, if only that was a lockout-shortened season, he'd be a God haha

I also never got the sense that he took offseason training all that seriously. So, he didn't really extend his athletic prime from that perspective.

Also, sometimes you can get a bit of paralysis by analysis...



Again, being sub-6-foot, playing deep, and trying to let your head do the first three-quarters of your save process does have some drawbacks...

I purposefully chose the overhead to start this sequence - one, because the seizure-inducing video quality is such that folks might not like it - but mainly because you can see that Kipper knows this is gonna be a late-breaking 2 on 1 here because his d-man is in "one too many beers mode". And if he commits too hard to this shot, he'll be yielding an empty net on the back side...

Unfortunately, the shooter is Teemu Selanne and Selanne rips it short side high. Win some most, lose some...

Kipper's playoff record isn't anything to shake a stick at...but adjusting for Calgary Flames history, he's got every playoff series win from 1990 to 2014, right?

Maybe that was more of a Calgary thing...? Kipper did take Finland to 1st in their pool in the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, and got the Finns all the way to the Final (losing 3-2). He also helped the Finns to a bronze in the 2010 Olympics (his game against the U.S. isn't worth recalling, ahem).

I don't think he was dealt the best hand team-wise, but he was a workhorse when he got the reigns...and every year that he started (except one), he got at least some Vezina consideration...and a lot of people are rightfully talking about Quick's run in 2012 (as they should, it's maybe the best ever), but let's not forget, the Flames were +10000 to win the Cup in '04, the second worst behind Florida (+11000) and he got them to within a goal...
 
Last edited:

Michael Farkas

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Getting back to Fleury, I do see him as something of a complier. He's second all-time in wins. Great. But that's perhaps the goalie stat that I hate the most. I mean, I guess it can show that a guy is a workhorse, but he was certainly never a Brodeur there, or it can show that he was solid for a while. I can give him that. I just feel like we're still at a part of the list where I want something better than solid.

I think the most apt comparison I can make is Mike Gartner.
I've never really thought about goalies as compilers because I don't think the milestones really add up. I mean, what counts up on goalies? Just wins really...I guess shutouts, but I can't tell if anyone really values those or to what degree they value them. Also, I imagine that shutouts are a little more scoring environment dependent.

I won't say no to the general analogy, because there's certainly pieces there. But I will say that Fleury didn't really get a good deal while the gettin' was good...

His first few years in the league were a total [bleep]show...no full time goalie coach, a below average color commentator at head coach, a defense with Steve Poapst (who?) on it, etc.

Then Therrien came in and there was some structure for the first time in Fleury's career (and in Pens history going back to Constantine). You can see the Pens goalie numbers in '08. They didn't practice extra hard that year (well, they did, but...).

Then things get unlucky for Flower again because Bylsma created this ever-expanding, complicated offensive system that looked fun...but when it failed, it gave up like a 3 on 1 every time*. So Fleury faced some ridiculous chances against and often. Generally, speaking the team got too big for its britches offensively and that led to some goals going in...Fleury is not the most mentally strong goalie on the market, so it leaked into his play...he lost his job to Vokoun in 2013 in a big spot. All that...

Back to you...

There's no "bad team scorer" goalies really...it doesn't work like that. So it's hard to find an analogy...it's like: yes, he played for a long time, and he was generally on successful teams, but he also didn't benefit from that on a year-by-year basis, so his success at the end makes it look like he compiled his way here...but really, he might have been considered greater if he was just a cog in the wheel on, say, Ottawa coming out of the lockout and tapered off in his mid 30's instead of getting Vezina consideration then, but less before...*catches breath*

...or something. :laugh:
 

Michael Farkas

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defending his informed opinions as comprehensively and transparently as he does
Thanks for this. But that's the thing, like, is there a single goalie where I go "I love that guy" or "I hate that guy" where I don't back it up? If so, someone please tell me so that I can immediately correct that.

Have I said, "Tony Esposito is not a very good goaltender" - of course. But it's also backed by a ton of explanation, film breakdown, and - known history disrespector and general hooligan, Jacques Plante.

And again, like I've said the whole time...I'm not asking anyone to make my list the final list or even go along with my method...but the public freakouts are....I don't know, I guess that's how things are these days haha *shrug*

Anyway, the offer still stands...if folks need a safe space or whatever, I'll walk, and sleep like a baby (well...not at the same time)...
 

Bear of Bad News

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As the parent of three small kids, “sleep like a baby” is total bullshit.

I like that you support your point of view because it’s a perspective that is uncommon.

I’m hopeful that you’ll (*) give others the room to do similarly and respect that they are coming from a different angle. Goaltending is all about angles.

(*) whoever’s reading this, feel free to insert “continue to” if you want to. Like a goalie, I’d rather focus on the next scoring chance than on the goal we collectively gave up earlier.
 

Bear of Bad News

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When my wife’s water broke nine weeks prematurely, and dad was solo parenting for five weeks, a battlefield compromise was made where the kids can sleep in the big bed with dad.

Fast forward, and the only kid not still in the parents’ bedroom is the one who sleeps in their crib. The others have fantastic rooms, I swear.
 

Bear of Bad News

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That’s a “love” of support, by the way.

We need some sort of admin around here with the power to add a “support” response.
 
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Michael Farkas

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I have a two year old and a pregnant wife. I've had like 5 genuinely good sleeps on the last 2.5 years.
You're pounding out all of these research dossiers with that ^ setup...? My goodness...what a champ.

My Kiprusoff post was delayed a day because someone got my smoothie order wrong earlier that afternoon...it's like, "how can you confuse pineapple and mango...?"; I just couldn't deal, man. Had to sit a few plays out...
 
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