HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 6

[Michael Farkas]

I don't find Quick playing in L.A. to be a helpful point...not sure if you're American or not, but the Kings goalie is not a marketable thing even to the NHL itself haha

I think people were actually a little slow to notice Quick because he played in the West, perhaps.

Can I just stream of consciousness thoughts about Quick at you?

The Kings were a grimy and very good defensive team in Quck's prime. But Quick wasn't really the type to take full advantage of it. Quick was a weird goalie. In some ways, he's like a precursor to Andrei Vasilevskiy...the hips, the way that he immediately seals the ice, the shuffle ability, the miracle lateral saves, supreme glove-lyness, etc.

Obviously, Quick is much smaller and much more impatient. In other ways (these ways), he's like a bad version of Fleury or Bobrovsky in that he's antsy, his feet get all goofy and un-set and it throws him off his angle, forcing him into a deficit. He sort of plays like a coiled spring, but then applies it to the vertical angles. I dislike most of that.

I don't know the numbers on this...but it just felt like Quick was better on breakaways, but you could probably shoot one past him...especially with a fake shot and some movement. But Quick didn't throw himself in the trash after a shot fake, he's like a weapons-grade spider monkey...he could move with you about as well as any goalie from this era (any era?). He can go paddle down, he has the flexibility and the tracking to get the glove up to save the day.

The GMs rated him quite highly in the mid-2010s in the polls. He was 1st (or tied for 1st with Price) in one of them IIRC.

I think towards the end when his hips and back started to go and he was just sliding around, doing splits for the hell of it. Honestly, I don't know how he's even still in the game...and watched him for a little bit last night after my game, he shutout Seattle...but I don't even understand how he competes with these low angle shots these days and all that.

Now, unlike Bobrovsky and Fleury, Quick has a really strong mental game. The Kings had a lot of ways they could have gone besides Quick...he battled through the Cheese and worked his way into it. Then you watch his work in the playoffs, the guy is pretty much stainless steel. He also competes his bag off. 9 out of 9 compete. He comes back with his process, he keeps playing his way...

I think there's a bit of an adaptability aspect (possibly lacking) to him that needs to be considered. But he also gave a very long run of surprisingly reliable play. We didn't get a lot of him in the postseason over the course of his career in terms of runs, so that's also a little tricky.

All in all, it's a guy I can go either way on really...I'd understand if people like him, I'd understand if people hate him...

 

[rmartin65]

As I mentioned earlier, I think LeSueur (side note- his name gets absolutely butchered in the papers. I think I have seen at least five different spellings) is worthy of consideration this round, even if I suspect that he was not as great as Paddy Moran. Simply put, I think Moran gets more praise in the game summaries, while it looks like LeSueur was remembered more fondly following their careers (I suspect due the Silver Seven’s Stanley Cup exploits and popularity).

I’d like to back up a bit before I get into LeSueur’s career; for the early goalies, it is important to note that the goalkeeper position was played differently than goalies today, largely due to the lack of substantive equipment, the illegality of dropping to the ice to stop the puck, and the absence of the foreign pass. While goalkeepers were expected to stop the puck, they were also expected to go out and check opposing forwards, as well as clear the puck themselves. They occasionally rushed the puck, some even scoring goals. This is an important point to understand, because it brings much-needed context to the next paragraph-

Percy LeSueur, as his detractors would note, started his Senior career as a forward, later switching to goalie when the regular goaltender was sick. As alluded to above, this is not at all like if a forward would switch back to goal today- the positions were not that specialized yet. Based on how I understand how hockey was played back then, this would be more akin to a forward switching back to defense. Still a rare occurrence, to be sure, but it is not nearly so dramatic a change.

I only picked up LeSueur’s career in 1904, when Smith’s Falls was in the Ontario Hockey Association (O.H.A.) Senior division, and - outside of a couple quotes here and there- I stopped in 1909, when LeSueur was in the middle of his time with Ottawa HC. I intend to come back and get to the 1910-1916 seasons later (unless someone beats me to it), but we are nearing the end of the semester and, unfortunately, I’m going to have to spend some time making sure I am squared away for an upcoming exam.

Lastly, I’d like to note that this (or any of the posts I make on the old-time guys) are not meant to contain only praise for these goalkeepers. You’ll note that I’ll include quotes and context that both make cases for these guys and detract from them. I’m looking to put information out there and trying to explain what it means, I’m not trying to provide a one-sided argument.

1904 Season: Smith’s Falls, OHA Senior Division

Spoiler

Context: The OHA at this time was… interesting. I only started going through it a couple weeks ago, so I still need time to digest what I’ve been reading. But I feel comfortable stating that the 1904 OHA was a league worth noting. For starters, the champions of the league- the Toronto Marlboros (led by Tommy Phillips)- challenged the Silver Seven for the Stanley Cup. It wasn’t a particularly close series, with Ottawa winning the two-game series 17-5 (6-3 and 11-2), but this is not out of line with the Winnipeg Rowing Club’s (the MHA’s 1903 and 1904 champion) 1904 challenge against Ottawa, where Ottawa won the three-game series 14-7 (9-1 Ottawa, 6-2 Winnipeg, and 2-0 Ottawa). In the CAHL that year, Ottawa won games 10-6, 8-3, 4-1, and 10-5, so again, the Marlboros look like they’d have fit in there. Now, this isn’t me saying the OHA was necessarily on par with the MHA, and certainly not with the CAHL- the Marlboros were the class of the OHA and went undefeated in league play that year- but I think it was probably better than we give it credit for.

But I digress. LeSueur and Smith’s Falls went 2-4 that year in Group 2 (consisting of Perth, who went 5-1 and won the group and ultimately lost to the Marlboros in the OHA finals, Brockville, who went 4-2 and would jump to the FAHL the next season, and the Ottawa Aberdeens, who went 1-5). LeSueur ended up playing one of the games at forward, scoring a goal.

Selected quotes (source: Toronto Star)

“On the victorious team Lesuer, in goal, was a capital tender, and many times he saved probably scores when the wearers of orange and black were within a few feet of his nets”

“Lesueur in goal was a tower of strength to his team”

“Merrow replaced Lesuer in goal and performed fully as well as the usual puck stopper if not better. Leseur was placed on the forward line but unfortunately marred his effectiveness by continually breaking the rules of the game”

“Rutherford in goal [comment: for Perth] is without the shadow of a doubt the very best goal tender in the league”

1905 Season: Smith’s Falls, OHA Senior Division

Spoiler

Context: Smith’s Falls was again placed in Group 2 for the OHA Senior Division, but won it this time, going 3-1. The Kingston Frontenacs would also go 3-1, but Smith’s Falls would win the two-game playoff 8-3 (games going 3-1 Kingston and 7-0 Smith’s Falls). Brockville was in the group as well, but were not competitive at all, likely due to their OHA team largely consisting of the leftovers from those not selected for Brockville’s FAHL team. By virtue of winning Group 2, Smith’s Falls would advance to the playoffs, where they defeated Morrisburg 14-3. Their run would end, however, in the Finals against the Toronto Marlboros. The Marlboros won the first game 8-3, Smith’s Falls was winning the second 6-4 when it was called due to injuries suffered by the Marlboro team (reportedly caused by excessive roughness on the part of Smith’s Falls), and the Marlboros won the third 9-3. The Marlboros did not challenge for the Cup this season, which is probably a good thing- they appear noticeably weaker than in the previous season.

Selected quotes (source: Toronto Star)
“For the visitors, Lesueur in goal used his body effectively in stopping many deady shots from Clarke and Potter.”

“For Frontenacs Vanhorn and Clarke were the most effective, and for Smith’s Falls their goal-keeper, Lesueur, and Smith in centre, saved their team from what looked like sure scores”

“The real star of the team, however, was Captain LeSueur in goal. He played a phenomenal game. Time and again he averted a score by some clever play, and the crowd cheered him continually for his fine work. On several occasions he skated out from his goal and spoiled what looked like sure goals”

“‘What’s his name?’ asked a stranger

‘LeSueur’

‘Sure, eh? I should say is is the best I ever saw’”

“LeSueur was 56 per cent of the Smith’s Falls team. He is said to be just as good a forward as he is a goal-tender, but they need him more on the defence, so he plays in the nets. The puck got by him eight times, but with anybody else in his place it would probably to add a cipher after the 8”

“LeSueur stopped 100 difficult shots on goal if he stopped one. He got the puck everywhere, even catching a wrist shot waist high on the blade of his stick. The crowd on both sides of the rink cheered him to the echo for his brilliant work. He was easily 75 per cent of the Smith’s Falls team. He not only made marvelous stops, but frequently went out and checked the attacking forwards, invariably getting the puck”

1906 Season: with Smith’s Falls in the FAHL, then 1 SC game with Ottawa HC of the ECAHA

Spoiler

Context: Smith’s Falls made their way to the FAHL this season, winning the league with a 7-0 record and challenging for the Cup. The FAHL was weak- the Ottawa Victorias were the second best team in the league with a 4-4 record, followed by Brockville (4-4), Cornwall (3-4), and the Montreal Montagnards (0-5). The Cup challenge did not go well, with Ottawa HC winning the two-game series 14-7 (games going 6-5 Ottawa and 8-2 Ottawa). The FAHL, while still a legitimate Senior league, was probably no better than the 4th best league in the world at this point.

LeSueur then, by some miraculous turn of fate, moved to Ottawa and played in the second game of the Wanderer-Ottawa series. The Wanderers had won the first game 9-1. With LeSueur in net Ottawa would win the second game 9-3, but the Wanderers would still take control of the Cup on goals.

Selected Quotes (Sources: Ottawa CItizen, Ottawa Journal, Montreal Gazette, Montreal Star)

“Lesueur stopped in crack style but Bannerman was superior to the Falls man, some of his stops being of the phenomenal variety”

“Lesueur is one of the cleverest goal keepers ever seen before a net here. He shared honors with Frank McGee as the most brilliant of the players”

“LeSueur in the flags stamped himself as the peer of any goal tend playing the game and his blocking at times was phenomenal”

“Their defence put up a sensational game at times, and the truly marvellous work of Lesueur before the net earned for him unstinted applause from the great crowd and stamped the Smith’s Falls’ goal defender as undoubtedly the cleverest man in the position who has appeared in Ottawa in the memory of the present generation of hockey goers”

“The hero of their team proved to be Lesueur in goal. He had his vis-a-vis Hague over shadowed completely, and the rafters repeatedly rang with applause as he stopped shot after shot when a save seemed impossible. His exhibition of goalkeeping was by far the best senior this season or probably for several seasons. An enterprising mathematician took note of his saves and at the end of the match had counted 48, a wonderful record for an evening. There is this to be said about the work cut out for him, that, compared with the Ottawa, he had no defence in front to help him out, while Hague was saved time and again by the men in front of him”

“Nothing more brilliant in the way of goalkeeping could be possible. He [LeSueur] seemed to have a charm about him and quick as lightning got in the way of every shot”

“Goal-tend LeSueur, however, was at his best and he again proved himself one of the best blocks in the business. At times his stops were nothing short of phenomenal and while luck is always a factor in a goal tend’s play, his consistent work throughout the match showed that his stops were the result of quick thinking”

“On the other hand the Ottawas have to thank Lesueur also for much brilliant work”

1907 Season: with Ottawa HC in the ECAHA

Spoiler

Context: Ottawa HC goes 7-3, good for second in the league behind the powerhouse Wanderers. Ottawa HC was very likely weaker this year due to Harry Smith replacing Frank McGee. In any case, the ECAHA is likely the best or second-best league in the world top to bottom this year.

Selected Quotes (Sources: Ottawa CItizen, Ottawa Journal, Montreal Gazette, Montreal Star)

“ Lesueur in goal put up a beautiful game, being called upon to stop many hard drives which looked like sure scores. He is one of the finest in the game, and adds much strength to the team. He is fast in his movements and lifts beautifully. Ottawa certainly made a find when they landed him”

“ Lesueur in Ottawa’s goal completes a defence upon which it will undoubtedly be difficult to improve. He is easily the cleverest man before the net of the many who have worn the red, black, and white”

“LeSueur, the famous goal tender of the Ottawas, was in the nets, and his work was really magnificent. In fact, he alone, with the giant Pulford, kept the Quebec boys from breaking into the score sheet early in the game”

“Ottawa may thank Leseur for the manner in which they escaped being scored against”

“Lesueur and Hern divided honors, both doing sensational work in the nets. Lesueur save the Ottawa twenty times or more, using his shins, stick and head as usual, and sometimes skating out to intercept a pass. In the second half when Ottawa were three or four men shy, Lesueur’s work brought down the house. He stopped the puck with his hands, stick and body, turning it aside in a marvelous manner”

“Percy Lesueur, pf the Ottawas, the greatest goal-keeper that ever wore the pads”

1908: with Ottawa HC in the ECAHA

Spoiler

Context: Ottawa HC again finishes second in the ECAHA, though they were strengthened by the additions of Cyclone Taylor at point, Tommy Phillips at LW, and Marty Walsh at center. The ECAHA is, for my money, the undisputed best league in the world.

Selected Quotes (Sources: Ottawa CItizen, Ottawa Journal, Montreal Gazette, Montreal Star)
“Lesueur was a wonder, and Nicholson, although he did not have half the work and anxiety which Lesueur had, played an excellent game”

“No one, for instance, could expect Finnie to be in the same grade of hockey as Lesueur,”

“had Lesueur not had his eagle eye with him their score would have been much larger”

“Lesueur played a great game in the flags, making some wonderful stops, and rushing out and saving on a number of occasions””

1909: with Ottawa HC in the ECHA

Spoiler

Context: Ottawa HC, while weakened by the departure of Tommy Phillips, was strengthened by the additions of Bruce Stuart (the man just won championships) at rover, Dubbie Kerr at LW, and Billy Gilmour at RW. They would win the (shrunken down, following the departure of the VIctorias and Montreal HC teams due to their desire to compete against amateurs) ECHA this year with a 10-2 record. Again, the ECHA was pretty clearly (IMO) the best league in the world at this time.

Selected Quotes (Sources: Ottawa CItizen, Ottawa Journal, Montreal Gazette, Montreal Star)
“Lesueur in the Ottawa nets covered himself with glory, making stops that he did not seem to have the slightest possibility of blocking. He was back in his 1906 form, being repeatedly cheered to the echo for his stellar work”

“Perhaps in this case Lesueur deserves more credit, for the fusilade on his net in the first half was the greatest, although in the second the attack was evenly divided, but Riley Hern no doubt would have done just as well had he been in Lesuer’s place”

“Lesueur had a great deal more work than Hern and did it in his usual good style”

““Had Lesueur been off form, Quebec would have had a dozen more. Lesueur is playing better hockey than ever and the crowd rewarded his work by prolonged applause on several occasions”

“Lesueur’s work was on par with that of Paddy Moran the previous Saturday, the Ottawa man standing a fusilade of shots from Marshall, McNamara, and Hyland”

“Taylor was under a handicap and Lesueur, although very good in the first half, when he had lots to do allowed at least three easy ones to get by him towards the close. Lesueur again proved that he is without superior when the team is tight pressed, but at the finish the Irishmen were fooling him from all angles”

“Lesueur was at his best on Saturday and stopped all kinds of hard drives. Only for his work the Shamrocks would have piled up a much larger score in the first half”

“Lesueur did valuable work in the nets. Due to the great offensive work of Taylor and Lake, Lesueur was not called upon to block as many shots as Moran, but he was always on the job when needed. Lesueur is a former Quebec player and tonight he had it on Moran in every way”

“Percy Lesueur, Ottawas’ goal keeper, hero of Saturday’s match”

“Lesueur in goal gave the greatest performance ever seen in Montreal”

“If there is one man to whom the Ottawas owe their victory that is Percy Lesueur. Lesueur saved the game for Ottawa time after time, his work calling forth cheer after cheer. Lesueuer stopped the puck with his hands, pads and skates, skating out on a number of occasions and intercepting passes or shots”

“Hern did splendid work in the Wanderer nets, but Lesueur had it on him in every way”

“Leseur, the Ottawa goal-keep, electrified the populace with some stops that only Mr. P. Moran, of Quebec, can make when in his best form”

“Lesueur probably carried off the honors of the Ottawa team because it was his cool and clever saving at critical stages in the match that neutralized every rally by the Wanderer team. He had at least twice as many stops to make as Hern and some of them were of the phenomenal order.”

“Lesueur gave a remarkable exhibition in goals and his work was little short of the display put up by Paddy Moran”

All Star Teams and Notes from Contemporaries

Spoiler

I don’t claim to have all the all-star teams, but here are the relevant teams from the seasons that LeSueur was playing and eligible for:

1904: I don’t know how true of an all-star team this actually was, but there was an East vs West Ontario all-star series played. Eddie Geroux was the goaltender for the East, Pete Maltman for the West.

1905: The only teams I have for this season are CAHL/FAHL focused, so it is not surprising to see LeSueur not mentioned, given he was playing in the OHA.

1906: The only team I think LeSueur would have been eligible for was the Winnipeg Free Press editor’s “selection of a world’s champion hockey team… showing no favoritism to either East or West”. Dutchy Morrison was the pick at goal.

1907: A “well-known Montreal newspaper man” selected LeSueur for his all star team, and an All-Canadian Hockey Team originally published by the Ottawa Free Press selected LeSueur as well.

1908: A fan-selected First and Second team all star list was selected at the half-time of one of the games. Paddy Moran was on the first team, Billy Nicholson on the second. The Ottawa Free Press published an ECAHA all-star team, Paddy Moran getting the nod. Billy Nicholson was said to have been “the nearest approach to Moran”.

1909: Harvey Pulford (an ex-teammate of LeSueur) selected LeSueur for his all-star team. I should note that 4 of the 7 players named were Ottawa players. The others were 2 Wanderers and Lester Patrick. I don’t know how much to weigh this one.

1912: An article titled “Hugh Lehman One of the Greatest in Nets” from the Vancouver Daily World, 1 February 1912, published discussion about goalies from a fanning bee in Vancouver. As the title would suggest, Lehamn was mentioned, as was Paddy Moran ("Paddy Moran is perhaps the one best bet of the four and his wonderful record with the old Quebec team stamps him as the cleverest goal custodian of the East"), Percy LeSueur ("Percy Leseur is one of the greatest students of hockey. He is always trying to learn some new wrinkles and also always trying to teach others what he knows of the game"), Dutchy Morrison ("'Dutchy' Morrison made a great name for himself in O.H.A. hockey...He then game west and put Portage la Prairie on the hockey map. He was the most finished player that ever performed in that section"), and Whitey Merritt ("'Whitey' Merritt was the old Victoria goal tender... His work is still talked about by the old timers, who claim that the present generation has not seen his equal"). Riley Hern and Jack Winchester were noted as well ("Riley Hern and the late Jack Winchester must also be mentioned as great men between the nets").

1912: An article from the Victoria Daily Times (3 April) claims “"Paddy" Moran, the famous goaltender of the Stanley cup holders, and "Hughie" Lehman of the Westminster champions, are considered the best net-custodians in the game to-day, with the possible exception of "Percy" Leseur of the Ottawas”

1922: Frank Patrick, according to the 4 March edition of the Province, rejected the idea that then-present goalies were superior to the older goalies- "I regard our present goalies as wonderful players. Their work boarders on the sensational, but at the same time, in Percy Leseuer, old Ottawa goalie, Paddy Moran, of QUebec, and "Bouse" Hutton, of Ottawa, we had three of the greatest men in the nets, players every bit as good as the present-day performers. There we no greater players, past or present, than those men"

1923: Lester Patrick picked an all time All-Star team from retired players and chose Paddy Moran and Percy LeSueur.

1925 McLean Magazine Team: LeSueur was selected as the second team goalie. Vezina first, Benedict or Lehman second. A quote I believe from this project as found in the All Time Best Players- Lists by their Contemporaries thread- “Percy LeSueur came second. He was as good as Vezina but didn’t wear as well and was only eight or nine years in the big time, and slipped badly as a netminder towards the finish of his career.” As good as Vezina but with poor longevity. Interesting.

Cyclone Taylor named LeSueur the greatest goalie he played with or against after his retirement.

 

[rmartin65]

I started looking into Hall of Fame inductees, their birth years, and their induction years to see if there is anything useful we can glean from that kind of information.

Here is what the male HoF goalies look like by birth year-

Name	HoF Year	Birth Year
Charlie Gardiner	1945	1904
Georges Vezina	1945	1887
Alec Connell	1958	1902
Hugh Lehman	1958	1885
Paddy Moran	1958	1877
Tiny Thompson	1959	1903
George Hainsworth	1961	1893
Percy LeSueur	1961	1881
Riley Hern	1963	1878
Bouse Hutton	1963	1877
Bill Durnan	1964	1916
Clint Benedict	1965	1892
Frank Brimsek	1966	1913
Turk Broda	1967	1914
Roy Worters	1969	1900
Terry Sawchuk	1971	1929
Hap Holmes	1972	1888
Chuck Rayner	1973	1920
Glenn Hall	1975	1931
Johnny Bower	1976	1924
Jacques Plante	1978	1929
Harry Lumley	1980	1926
Gump Worsley	1980	1929
Ken Dryden	1983	1947
Bernie Parent	1984	1945
Gerry Cheevers	1985	1940
Eddie Giacomin	1987	1939
Tony Esposito	1988	1943
Vladislav Tretiak	1989	1952
Billy Smith	1993	1950
Grant Fuhr	2003	1962
Patrick Roy	2006	1965
Ed Belfour	2011	1965
Dominik Hasek	2014	1965
Rogie Vachon	2016	1945
Martin Brodeur	2018	1972
Roberto Luongo	2022	1979
Tom Barrasso	2023	1965
Henrik Lundqvist	2023	1982
Mike Vernon	2023	1963

Let's use birth year plus/minus 5 years to define a player's age cohort.

Tom Barrasso. As a 1965 birth year, we are looking at 1960-1970. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Grant Fuhr (2003 induction), Patrick Roy (2006 induction), Ed Belfour (2011 induction), Dominik Hasek (2014 induction), Tom Barrasso (2023 induction), and Mike Vernon (2023 induction). Remarkably, all of Roy, Hasek Belfour, and Barrasso were born in 1965. 6 players inducted, and we are also discussing CuJo and Beezer this round. We have already voted in 3 of these players and are discussing 4 of the other 5.

Tony Esposito. As a 1943 birth year, we are looking at 1938-1948. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Ken Dryden (1983 induction), Bernie Parent (1984 induction), Gerry Cheevers (1985 induction), Eddie Giacomin (1987 induction), Tony Esposito (1988 induction), and Rogie Vachon (1945 induction). 6 players inducted, 2 of which we have already voted in and 1 we are discussing this round.

Grant Fuhr. As a 1962 birth year, we are looking at 1957-1967. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Grant Fuhr (2003 induction), Patrick Roy (2006 induction), Ed Belfour (2011 induction), Dominik Hasek (2014 induction), Tom Barrasso (2023 induction), and Mike Vernon (2023 induction). Unless I missed something, it is the same grouping as Barrasso, so 6 players inducted and another 2 being discussed this round. Like with Barrasso, I think the count is 3 already voted in to our list, with 4 more being discussed.

George Hainsworth. As an 1893 birth year, we are looking at 1888-1898. That leaves us with (in chronological order) George Hainsworth (1961 induction), Clint Benedict (1965 induction), and Hap Holmes (1972 induction). 3 players inducted. We have already voted in 1 and are discussing the other 2 this round.

Hap Holmes. As an 1888 birth year, we are looking at 1883-1893. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Georges Vezina (1945 induction), Hugh Lehman (1958 induction), George Hainsworth (1961 induction), Clint Benedict (1965 induction), and Hap Holmes (1972 induction). 5 players inducted. We have voted in 3 and are currently discussing the other 2.

Curtis Joseph. As a 1967 birth year, we are looking at 1962-1972. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Grant Fuhr (2003 induction), Patrick Roy (2006 induction), Ed Belfour (2011 induction), Dominik Hasek (2014 induction), Martin Brodeur (2018 induction), Tom Barrasso (2023 induction), and Mike Vernon (2023 induction). 7 players inducted, with Cujo and Beezer being discussed. We have already voted in 4 of these players, and are currently discussing 4 of the remaining 5.

Miika Kiprusoff. As a 1976 birth year, we are looking at 1971-1981. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Martin Brodeur (2018 induction) and Roberto Luongo (2022 induction). 2 players inducted, with Kiprusoff being discussed. Two have been already voted on to our list, and, obviously, Kiprusoff is eligible this round.

Percy LeSueur. As an 1881 birth year, we are looking at 1876-1886. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Hugh Lehman (1958 induction), Paddy Moran (1958 induction), Percy LeSueur (1961 induction), Riley Hern (1963 induction), Bouse Hutton (1963 induction). 5 players inducted, only one of which has been voted in, only another 1 (LeSueur) being discussed this round.

Harry Lumley. As a 1926 birth year, we are looking at 1921-1931. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Terry Sawchuk (1971 induction), Glenn Hall (1931 induction), Johnny Bower (1976 induction), Jacques Plante (1978 induction), Harry Lumley (1980 induction), and Gump Worsely (1980 induction). 6 players inducted. We have already voted in 4, and are discussing the other 2.

Chuck Rayner. As a 1920 birth year, we are looking at 1915-1925. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Bill Durnan (1964 induction), Chuck Rayner (1973 induction), and Johnny Bower (1976 induction). 3 players inducted, 2 of whom we have already voted in. We are discussing the third (Rayner).

Jonathan Quick. As a 1986 birth year, we are looking at 1981-1991. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Henrik Lundqvist (2023 induction). 1 player inducted, but this is sure to climb as his contemporaries become eligible. And, of course, 1 player being discussed (Quick).

Rogie Vachon. As a 1945 birth year, we are looking at 1940-1950. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Ken Dryden (1983 induction), Bernie Parent (1984 induction), Gerry Cheevers (1940 induction), Tony Esposito (1988 induction), Billy Smith (1993 induction), and Rogie Vachon (2016 induction). 6 players inducted, 4 of whom have been inducted . We are discussing one of the other two (Vachon).

John Vanbiesbrouck. As a 1963 birth year, we are looking at 1958-1968. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Grant Fuhr (2003 induction), Patrick Roy (2006 induction), Ed Belfour (2011 induction), Dominik Hasek (2014 induction), Tom Barrasso (2023 induction), and Mike Vernon (2023 induction). 6 players inducted, and we are also discussing Vanbiesbrouck and Cujo. We have voted in 3 and are discussing 2 of the remaining 3.

Gump Worsley. As a 1929 birth year, we are looking at 1924-1934. That leaves us with (in chronological order) Terry Sawchuk (1971 induction), Glenn Hall (1975 induction), Johnny Bower (1924 induction), Jacques Plant (1978 induction), Harry Lumley (1980 induction), and Gump Worsley (1980 induction). 6 players inducted, 4 of whom we have already voted in. We are currently discussing the remaining 2.

Take from this what you will. A couple of comments-

I am hesitant to put too much stock into the induction years without looking at when these players began and ended their careers; for example, Hasek wasn't inducted 8 years after Roy because the voters thought Roy was better- Hasek's career just went on longer.

This isn't going to be at all useful for players who are either still playing or recently retired.

There are a couple birth years/ranges that look really crowded. 1965 as a year and the years surrounding it have a ton of people inducted. Is this an example of random happenstance, or is the HoF over-representing that era? The mid-late 1920s, the early-mid 1940s.

I am pleasantly surprised by how well LeSueur's age cohort is represented by the HoF...but then disappointed again when I look at how we are ignoring them.

The biggest shock for me? The lack of recognition around Kiprusof's birth year, both by the HoF and by us. Is this the result of a particularly strong 1960s goalies keeping the next generation from showing up, or is there something else at play?

 

[Michael Farkas]

(side note- his name gets absolutely butchered in the papers. I think I have seen at least five different spellings)

Thanks for that whole post. Any other spellings stand out to you, it might help other researchers...

 

[rmartin65]

Thanks for that whole post. Any other spellings stand out to you, it might help other researchers...

Honestly, and I know this isn't helpful, I'd check pretty much any spelling you can think of switching around the "e's" and "u's", as well as the capitalization of the "S" and breaking the name after the "Le".

In addition to LeSueur, I know I've seen Lesueur, Leseur, LeSur, Leseuer, and I'm pretty sure that I've seen Le Sur or Le Suer (or something to that effect), but I didn't see that during a quick check of my notes.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Rogie Vachon in the Finals

1967 Finals
Montreal wins 6-2
Shots: Habs 44 Leafs 26
Habs 1 Leafs 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 21, 1967

Habs' Vachon Playoff Surprise

If you're looking for a rag-to-riches them in this year's Stanley Cup playoffs, how about one young Rogatien Vachon? Two months ago the 21-year-old rookie netminder with Montreal Canadiens was virtually unknown in pro hockey ranks. Now he is in a position to help the club to its third straight Cup Victory. He earned the right to the No.1 goaltending job... In five playoff games, Vachon has allowed only ten goals.

In mid-February, Blake threw Vachon in against Detroit Red Wings. Early in the game, Detroit's Gordie Howe had a breakaway from centre ice. Howe let go with a sizzling drive from 30 feet only to have Vachon move out quickly to cut down the angle and block the shot. After that game Howe said the rookie had made a terrific save and "looks like a pretty good netminder."

Worsley, who has been relegated to the backup spot by Vachon, also thinks highly of the youngster. "Rodgie's greatest asset is the way he plays the angles," Worsley said. "He's got all the reflexes that make a great goalie. The only thing that might hurt him now will be overconfidence."

Rogatien Vachon, the Canadiens' 21-year-old rookie goaltender, went the route and came up with several big saves to keep the Leafs off balance.

Leafs win 3-0
Shots: Habs 31 Leafs 43
Habs 1 Leafs 1

No relevant comments. Everyone is talking about Bower's shutout.


Leafs win 3-2 in double OT
Shots: Habs 63 Leafs 54
Habs 1 Leafs 2

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 26, 1967

It was a frustrating loss for the Canadiens who had the Leafs on the ropes several times during the game, but couldn't find the key to Bower's cage. Rogatien Vachon was also good in the Montreal nets, stopping 51 shots.

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 26, 1967

Bower and Vachon stole the show with a total of 110 saves.

Habs win 6-2
Shots: Habs 40 Leafs 37
Habs 2 Leafs 2

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 28, 1967

A crowd of 15,977 saw what could be described as a dismal letdown from Tuesday's brilliant overtime battle which was won by Toronto, 3-2. The goalkeeping of Bower and Montreal's Vachon in that, the third game of the finals, was magnificent. Vachon, the incredible rookie from Palmarolle, Quebec continued to dumbfound the hockey world in the fourth game with a sensational stand in the first three minutes which broke the back of a Toronto attack that did not again achieve momentum.

Montreal coach Toe Blake said, "If Vachon doesn't save us there, I don't know what might have happened. We started stone cold. I began to wonder where my players were the night before."

Vachon is providing one of the most remarkable stories in cup history. He had played only 19 games in the NHL when the playoffs began. For eight playoff games, his record is six wins and two defeats. Said Toronto assistant manager Frank (King) Clancy, "Vachon is fantastic...there's no other word for him. I would have never believed he could do what he is doing. And I never saw Beliveau play a better game."

Leafs win 4-1
Shots: Habs 38 Leafs 28
Habs 2 Leafs 3

The Leader-Post · ‎May 1, 1967

Vachon lasted 40 minutes, allowing four goals on the 19 shots Toronto players fired at him. He was replaced by Lorne Worsley for the final 20 minutes. Worsley, who had not played since March 12, looked sharp in turning aside 10 Toronto shots.

Leafs win 3-1
Shots: Habs 41 Leafs 36
Habs 2 Leafs 4

Worsley started over Vachon


Losing the starting gig is a hard go. He's stellar in the first four games, but one bad period and he's out of there. Across the series, he's arguably the most praised Hab (or Beliveau). Sawchuk, Bower, Keon, Vachon, and Beliveau are the names that stick out to me for praise.

Funny how in 1967, 1971, and 1986 a Hab rookie goaltender puts on a Conn Smythe calibre performance.


1969 Finals
Habs win 3-1
Shots: Habs 28 Blues 20
Habs 1 Blues 0

The Phoenix · ‎Apr 28, 1969

Young Rogatien Vachon, who performed brilliantly in the fifth and sixth games of the semi-finals against Boston Bruins, had a easy afternoon, blocking 19 shots.

Habs win 3-1
Shots: Habs 33 Blues 25
Habs 2 Blues 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 30, 1969

Rogatien Vachon came out of the pre-game warmup as an uncertain starter after suffering an arm injury from a shot by John Ferguson

The Habs were two men short through penalties to Bobby Rousseau and Savard when the Blues broke Vachon's shutout. The game made one stop but was lost in the traffic when Keenan, down on one knee, batted the loose puck into the corner.

Habs win 4-0
Shots: Habs 35 Blues 29
Habs 3 Blues 0

The Phoenix · ‎May 2, 1969

Vachon stopped 29 shots for his first shutout in 17 Stanley Cup appearances and was particularly brilliant in the second period when the Blues looked as though they were going to tie it up.

Habs win 2-1
Shots: Habs 31 Blues 33
Habs 4 Blues 0

The Phoenix · ‎May 5, 1969

Vachon, pressed into service when Gump Worsley was injured during the semi-final series with Boston on Bruins, was brilliant in blocking 32 shots.

Vachon came up with unbelievable stops on defenceman Noel Picard, Tim Ecclestone, Gary Sabourin and Terry Crisp.

Good series. Might be the most praised Hab. Dick Duff and Jean Beliveau get strong praise too. But it's a clean sweep where the Blues are outplayed for all but maybe two periods.


Overall, it's hard to read much. He and Worsley share starting duties a lot (Vachon-1967, Worsley-1968, Vachon-1969). The Habs are stupid strong and deep and the goalies aren't tasked with much in the way of difficulty in 1968 and 1969.

 

[VanIslander]

Vote 6 Candidates

• Tom Barrasso
• Tony Esposito
• Grant Fuhr
• George Hainsworth
• Hap Holmes
• Curtis Joseph
• Miikka Kiprusoff
• Percy LeSueur
• Harry Lumley
• Chuck Rayner
• Jonathan Quick
• Rogie Vachon
• John Vanbiesbrouck
• Gump Worsley

Vote 5 candidates included Billy Smith and Jiri Holecek?

Were they inducted in Round 5? Why else not here now?

EDIT: Carey Price is the last inducted on the stickied list. (To be updated list please).
Smith & Helecek finally inducted. Got it.

 

[jigglysquishy]

John Vanbiesbrouck in the Finals

1996 Finals
Avs win 3-1
Shots: Panthers 26 Avs 30
Panthers 0 Avs 1

The Dispatch · ‎Jun 5, 1996

Colorado forward Scott Young said "John Vanbiesbrouck has shut everybody down." Vanbiesbrouck shut down the Avalanche's big guns, as he did Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr in the Pittsburgh series.

Avs win 8-1. Beezer pulled after second period after letting in 4 on 11 shots
Shots: Panthers 28 Avs 30
Panthers 0 Avs 2

Daily Union · ‎Jun 7, 1996

Vanbiesbrouck, so brilliant during the playoffs, gave up four goals in the first period and was lifted in favor of Mark Fitzpatrick. Vanbiesbrouck accepted blame for the loss, but his teammates would have none of it. "It was a bad game on our part by everybody," winger Mike Hough said. "There's 20 guys who take the loss. I don't think we did a thing right tonight, and that was pretty evident."

Murphy said Vanbiesbrouck is "a big key to our success. We just left him hanging out to dry. You can't make the huge save on every play every night."

Avs win 3-2
Shots: Panthers 34 Avs 22
Panthers 0 Avs 3

No relevant comments


Avs win 1-0 in triple OT
Shots: Panthers 63 Avs 56
Panthers 0 Avs 4

Times Daily · ‎Jun 10, 1996

Vanbiesbrouck and Colorado's Patrick Roy were equally brilliant in goal.

Roy was outstanding early and Vanbiesbrouck made several excellent saves late.

Reading Eagle · ‎Jun 10, 1996

Vanbiesbrouck, who had made 55 saves in his spectacular performance

Overall, he's the most praised Panther, but in a 4-0 sweep. Sounds like the Avs soundly outplayed the Panthers all series long, even when shots are tight or it went to OT. Roy and Sakic most praised players across the series.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Overall, it's hard to read much. He and Worsley share starting duties a lot (Vachon-1967, Worsley-1968, Vachon-1969). The Habs are stupid strong and deep and the goalies aren't tasked with much in the way of difficulty in 1968 and 1969.

I really appreciate the consistent process, and I'm certainly not asking you to do more work if you don't want to, but have you at all considered focusing on the East Semifinal instead of the Stanley Cup Finals in 1968, 1969 and 1970?

It seems a bit unfair to the Habs goalies to dock them points for having such an easy ride in the Finals, in the three years where the format was deliberately engineered to make that inevitable. It also might be generous to Tony Esposito that he doesn't have to answer for getting swept by Boston in 1970 in the series that effectively determined the Cup champions. The East Semifinals in those years seem much more analogous to the Finals for every other year of the best-of-7 SCF era, which might be important to consider in this round with 3 of the 5 goalies who played significant minutes in those semifinal series up for voting.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I really appreciate the consistent process, and I'm certainly not asking you to do more work if you don't want to, but have you at all considered focusing on the East Semifinal instead of the Stanley Cup Finals in 1968, 1969 and 1970?

It seems a bit unfair to the Habs goalies to dock them points for having such an easy ride in the Finals, in the three years where the format was deliberately engineered to make that inevitable. It also might be generous to Tony Esposito that he doesn't have to answer for getting swept by Boston in 1970 in the series that effectively determined the Cup champions. The East Semifinals in those years seem much more analogous to the Finals for every other year of the best-of-7 SCF era, which might be important to consider in this round with 3 of the 5 goalies who played significant minutes in those semifinal series up for voting.

I can take a go at this on Thursday.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Vachon in the 1976 Canada Cup Finals + Soviet Games

Round Robin - Canada defeats Soviets 3-1
Shots: Canada 43 Soviets 28

The Leader-Post · ‎Sep 13, 1976

Rogie Vachon, in the Canadien net, was not under nearly as much pressure but came up with a strong performance whenever the Soviets did manage to penetrate the Canadian defence with their criss-cross patterns. Vachon, a member of the LA Kings, has played inspired hockey throughout the series as Bowman has elected to go with one goaltender in the series, was the top goalie in the round-robin portion.

Finals - Canada defeats Czechoslovakia 6-0
Shots: Canada 34 Czechs 24

The Spokesman-Review · ‎Sep 14, 1976

Vachon has allowed only six goals in the six games Canada has played. In two games against the Czechs and one against the highly-rated Russians, Vachon has surrendered just two goals. "Our defense has been playing fantastic the last three or four games and our forechecking has been a lot better. That's why we've been winning," said Vachon.

Netminder Rogie Vachon is the one who isn't give up goals, though he was rarely threatened by a Czech team thrown off balance by tenacious Canadian checking in all areas of the ice.

Canada wins 5-4 in OT
Shots: Canada 39 Czechs 25

The Windsor Star · ‎Sep 16, 1976

There were heroics all over the place, especially by Dzurilla and Vachon as they stopped breakaway shooters. Even after Barber scored, Novy got in cold on Vachon with a minute and a half left, and was robbed. But Vachon's greatest stop was made against Vladimir Martinec, seven minutes into overtime.

Dzurilla didn't steal the entire show in the final game. Little Rogatien Vachon, who played all seven tournament games in the Canadian net, was positively spectacular in the finale. It was a small wonder that Vachon was voted the outstanding Canadian in the tournament.

 

[CuuuJooo]

OT, but it still boggles my mind that Vernon is in the Hall while Cujo is not (not that I'm sure either should be in, but...).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sorry, I'm re-posting the Lumley post here. He belongs #1 in this group too...

The Future of Goaltending - Today!

Harry Lumley laid the groundwork for the first golden era of goaltending, but is left behind by history.

Before we continue, this post is sponsored by Lucky Strike cigarettes. The "toasted" cigarette! Over 20,000 physicians can't be wrong, "Toasted is better for the throat and soothes your Q-Zone!" Smoke a Lucky Strike - today!

The sponsorship era produced quite a haul for the NHL. It's patently unfair to the players in retrospect, but we can't go back and litigate that now. It did produce a lot of very well rounded players...developed players. Most clubs took their time with their players, they didn't force junior-aged players into the league very much...

Conversely, when players were forced into the league early, some had their development stagnate in some respects...Ted Lindsay (entered the NHL at 19 full time), for instance, played the game like he was being chased by bees...kind of similar to Bep Guidolin (entered NHL at 17) who played a reckless style of game. They sort of over-played it, and lacked "touch" in certain aspects.

It's tough even today for some players to make it early and hang in there...Nino Neiderreiter really struggled for a while, Luca Sbisa never got it, it took RNH how long to stay healthy, etc. - naturally, guys like McDavid, Crosby, Lemieux, Orr, Howe are supernatural and if you put them in the NHL at age 12 with a rake in place of a hockey stick, they'd still figure it out probably...

But generally, especially in this time period, rushed players had a really hard time rounding out their games.

Enter Harry Lumley. A goalie who played his first NHL game a month after his 17th birthday on Dec. 19, 1943.

Although he qualified to vote only two months ago, husky Harry Lumley of Detroit Red Wings already looks like the bright star in the goaltending firmament of future years, now that the masters of blocking and kicking ’em out like Bill Durnan, Frankie Brimsek, Turk Broda and the rest are getting older by the day. In fact, Lumley on his play so far, stands a good chance of taking over the net-mindiners laurels this semester

...

This rosy-cheeked youngster who holds promise of becoming one of the best netminders the league has produced, is in his third season as regular goalie for the Red Wings. ... Although barely past the 16-year-old mark, Lumley had enough future prospect to make him look like a good bet to the canny scout, Carson Cooper, who spotted him.

Red Wing teammates hoisted goalie Harry Lumley into the middle of a cheering huddle...[Tommy] Ivan pointed to Reise and Lumley as the heroes of the final game (Game 7 vs. Durnan and Montreal)

Lumley is credited with stopping Mosdell on a breakaway as the turning point of the game.

Other newspaper accounts list him as the Wings "backbone" for the first six games of the series. He also may have been given one of the first delay of game puck over glass penalties ever...in the series (game 6?) when he caught a puck and nonchalantly threw it over his shoulder and out of play haha

The sparkling play of young Harry Lumley in between the posts for the Detroit Red Wings during the past weeks gives him, for the second time this season, the nomination as THE HOCKEY NEWS’ Player-Of-The-Week.

The 21-year-old goalkeeper has been the hottest man in his department of the National Hockey League of late.

...

He now leads the league goalers with the best average. In 34 games he has been scored upon 80 times for an average of 2.35. He also is tied with Canadiens’ Bill Durnan with four shutouts. A likeable young player with a sunshine smile, Lumley has been a key-figure in Detroit’s drive into a first-place tie in the N.H.L. race.

Obviously, he got supplanted famously by a guy already on the list - Terry Sawchuk. Gordie Howe stated there was "a good chance" the Wings would've won all those Cups with Lumley in the crease. Which might be a Gretzky-like quote, to be fair. But he also didn't have to say it...they also won their first with Lumley.

Well, we know the O6 era well enough to know that when you get ousted from a contender, you rarely end up on another one. So Lumley went to some really bad situations and we know what bad situations can do to goalie stats and, therefore, award voting...

Lumley, with virtually no defence in front of him, made 41 saves in a futile effort to stem the Detroit scoring tide.
...
Terry Sawchuk in the Detroit nets had a comparatively easy time...

Lumley, 24, was traded during the off-season to the Chicago Black Hawks, annually regarded as the team with everything - but a defense.

They are getting as good goaling as any other club in the League. Lumley 2.45 overage rates him the fourth best goaler in the loop.

A bit neurotic and very protective of his crease (think Billy Smith before Billy Smith in some respects), Lumley was the first goalie in history to hit 300 wins.

“We have 16 ordinary hockey players and an outstanding goalie In Harry Lumley,” Ebbie told Ralby. “We don’t have that leader, the man who can spark the team like Schmidt in Boston, Kennedy in Toronto, Richard in Montreal. Howe and Lindsay in Detroit and Laprade in New York

“It’s pretty tough to smile these days,” said Ebbie grimly

"Correcting" the Al Rollins Hart Trophy of 1954?

There's a lot of debate about the Rollins Hart, which we won't litigate now. But the United Press conducted a poll for the NHL's Player of the Year (which isn't necessarily the same criteria).

Red Kelly won it by getting five more votes than Harry Lumley, who finished 2nd. (Others receiving votes: Gord Howe, Al Rollins, and Maurice Richard)

[Of possible interest...the UP had Bower as their rookie of the year, by one vote over Dutch Reibel; Camille Henry (actual Calder winner) had "heavy support"...followed by Mohns and Beliveau.)

For a while the feud [Sawchuk vs Lumley] had to be carried along on uneven terms. I Lumley didn’t have much opportunity for revenge while his efforts I were being wasted with the Black Hawks. But eventually he got the break of his career, was traded to Toronto and started making up for lost time.

Sawchuk and Lumley have battled each other in brillant style the past two seasons, earning for themselves recognition as the two best goalies in the game.

Results of their duel, which shows no signs of slackening, have been both interesting and spectacular. For instance, they combined for eight shutouts in the 14 Detroit-Toronto games last season and have added five more this season. The inter-club series has seen the lowest scoring in the loop over both campaigns.

Between them, they have monopolized every goaltending honor of note the past few years.

Sawchuk won the All Star position three times before Lumley bumped him to the second team last season.

Lumley has been steadily excellent with the Toronto team this year

- A team that @Eric Zweig has cited in THN "wasn't very good".

Lost 1955 Vezina on goal that likely would have been wiped out by goalie interference...

The last one, he’ll always remember because it cost Harry Lumley at least $1,000, perhaps more if his contract had a bonus clause based on a repeat Vezina Trophy triumph, and if loss of the trophy should cost him first place in the AllStar balloting.

The goal was the easiest Howell ever made. Aldo Guidolin had charged into the nets from a corner, spilling Lumley and another Leaf. He swiped at the disk and it skidded out to direct center, 20 feet out. Harry was all alone. He merely lifted it over Lumley’s prostrate form.

Lumley tore thigh tendons later in the 1956 season, and he struggled to return from that. At that point he had already had 12 full NHL seasons as a starter before age 30...and he did it in some pretty uncomfy places...

He went down to the minors in 1957...didn't pout. He was a Second-Team AS there behind...another player already on the list...Johnny Bower, of course.

Stats misleading...

Let’s look at the record! Nurtured to popularity by the bellicose cries of election-minded politicians, this mere saying has grown in strength to he come almost irrevocably the yardstick by which athletic All-Star teams are chosen.

For the sake of example let’s look at the record. The goaltending record of Harry Lumley as a member of this year’s Buffalo hockey team, to be specific.

As of American League games played through Feb. 3, Lumley has been charged with 174 goals in 44 games for an unimpressive 3.95 goals-against average.

The record, taken by itself leaves no doubt but that Lumley is the poorest goaltender among the AHL regulars.

Nothing could be further from fact. For the cherubicfaced Lumley — statistics not withstanding — has been one of the standout performers In the AHL this season.

...

“Harry’s our most valuable player, and has been all season. He’s been the victim of terribly poor play in front of him at times, yet he’s still shown he possesses the ability to make the ‘big play’ when someone walks in alone on him.”

General Manager Fred Hunt admits to having spent anxious moments whenever goaling changes have been mentioned in the National League for fear he would either lose Lumley to the parent Chicago Black Hawks, or via the deal route.

...

Ruby Pastor, who has caught the fever and flavor of hockey in his first year as owner of the Bisons. stands ready to pay $25,000 for Lumley’s contract.

Pastor would hardly offer that kind of money for the “worst” goalie in the league, would he?

...

“I’d rather skate in alone on a one or two man break against any other goalie in the league than Lumley,” is a common comment.

One coach, who will remain anonymous at his request, said he’d “have my club in first place and laughing at the league if I had Lumley between the pipes.” (Editor’s Note: His own goaltender boast a far superior goals against record, too)

Why then is Lumley’s statistical standing mediocre? Perhaps, the explanation lies in another rival coach’s thumbnail listing of the goals his club has scored against Buffalo.

“Only about one of every five goals we’ve scored against Lumley has been what I’d call a ‘real good goal.’ the rest have been due to sloppy play and scrambles in front of the Buffalo net. We’ve scored more ‘good goals’ against every other goalie.”

And if all factors are weighed, the decision may well be that Harry Lumley is the league’s best—not worst — puckstopper.

(Editor's note on the last bolded; Remember, this is still a league with Johnny Bower in it.)

Lum battled with weight post-injury. But still was called in to Boston well into his 30's to help with stretch run...

On that, Milt Schmidt said...

What, Schmidt was asked, was he looking for in Lumley in the vital games of late February and March?

“Stability, steadiness,” replied the Bruins’ coach. “I’m not asking for or expecting miracles."

This was in place of Don Simmons. Who is consistently referred to as inconsistent and unreliable around this time.

Became early goalie coach.

Speculation here is that Patrick has offered Lumley, a great favorite, a job as goalkeeping troubleshooter and coach of young goalies for the Bruins’ organization. The hefty veteran is rated the best technician in the business.

More importantly, let's check the tape...

Now, we give points here for being an adventer and/or inventor and I think that's just. Frank Nighbor gets a lot of points for "inventing" the pokecheck. Clint Benedict, rather silently, got a ton of support for breaking the rules and falling. Well...I think Lumley should get a lot of points for carrying the position to its modern state.

Whether this is a first-time view or a refresher, let's take a quick peak at two contrasting goalie styles in the previous generation...a short clip that can be viewed at 1x or 0.75x speed, I actually recommend the latter.

https://archive.org/details/1962-stanley-cup-finals-g-6_20240121/1930s/1935-36/NYR+vs+MTL.mp4

I've traced this game (mislabeled as they mostly are) to Dec 20, 1936.

On one side, we see some semblance of modern-ish goaltending with New York's Dave Kerr. We see some telescopic leg movements while remaining torso upright, etc. It's a little tougher with him, but there's obviously something there. That's for another time (though, probably not soon enough for my tastes).

On the other side, we have the opposite...we have George Hainsworth...who plays the position like a trash bag full of leaves...watch him surrender the late lead and then lose the game in overtime (by 2, as was the style at the time).

So, that's immediately what we came from. Most relevant goalies were somewhere in between this. Exception probably being Worters who was a scrambly goalie...who played more out of control than Kerr. But was also usually alone on the screen when facing attacks. So, he sort threw himself all over the place to compensate for his general loneliness and remarkably accurate depictions of his size at 5'2" or whatever he's listed at. That's probably on skates haha. This is kind of like what we saw with Rogie Vachon later. Fun and interesting. But not great.

On the "steadier" end of things, we have a lot of goalies that played a stand-up style, as you'd expect, passed down from Vezina. Some were more stick-led than others. Importantly, some were much better skaters than others. Like Durnan. Some were superb in terms of angles and really incorporating the glove...like Brimsek...and Durnan x2.

The golden era...saw Sawchuk - who modified the standup into something else. Saw Hall, who modified the falling into something actually useful. And we saw Plante, who never played from a deficit because of his skating, angles, and then his ability to pounce and cut down angles in a unique way.

But there's a missing link between ol' garbage bag Hainsworth and Jacques Plante. The answer is Harry Lumley for me...and I proudly boast him at 10th overall on my initial list.

The 1949 Final shows another gap between goalie evolution, but more so style, in some regard. We see Turk Broda give up the first goal in this clip...



Broda is sort of a one-and-done standup. Skating deficiency, sort of a lack of compete for second chance pucks, etc. produce this sort of result. He made it work in the very defensive Leafs situation and he deserves credit for that - I'm not trying to litigate him or that.

Now, let's get to 0:30 of the same clip. Thankfully, both teams are wearing dark colors. So it's immediately obvious what's happening...........................

As the Leafs come down the wing. Sophisticated post integration from Lumley. Shows off really good skating to move from post to post. We remember 20 years later, it takes Worsley three strides to make that trek successfully. He makes two saves in a row - which doesn't sound like a lot, but at this point in history...it's more than you think haha - let me leave it like that. Now...I don't know that any goalie is equipped to handle a third shot in a row in a scramble at this point in history. So, he ends up on his wallet by the third one...which I don't love. But there's a lot of compete there and it's not unreasonable what he's doing in the context of the other film that I've seen. If he routinely ended up sitting on his ass, I wouldn't be making this post because I wouldn't like him.

Now, go back and just watch DET5 absolutely clobber some poor Leaf in front. Whew boy...

Anyway, after Cruella De Vil stands up, we see at 0:43 Lumley getting set for a semi cross net-line pass. He gets good crease depth. He's almost in a Sawchuk-like stance but this game pre-dates Sawchuk of course. There's some blocker overlap it appears (not great, if true), it's a bit blurry on the freeze. Then as TOR24 lets the shot go...he's going to make a one-knee, kneeling block, stick blade backed by pad, moving into the trajectory of the shot (ya know, unlike Gump...who slides out of the way, randomly, of everything but a hot meal), very under control, with a mindset of playing the rebound out of danger.

Who does that remind you of? If you said, "Martin Brodeur"...you'd be right. If you didn't fast forward in time that quickly and said, "Jacques Plante"...you'd be right. It's not just me that feels that way...

Jacques Plante, Montreal's agile and acrobatic netminder, is the best goalie in the National Hockey League...

Many will argue his talents compared to such veteran backstops as Terry Sawchuk and Harry Lumley..."

Now, second chances are really hard for goalies through history to stop...even now. But back then...given where the position was, where equipment was, where technique was, etc. - a second chance is............in. But watch after the initial save, which comes off of a really good pre-shot pass...watch at 0:45 as Lumley comes up with a brilliant save. The puck rebounds around to the other side of the net. Lumley doesn't dilly dally...he slides right over. Gets his head quickly around, robs TOR9 from 7 feet away. Tries to catch the rebound, bobbles it...and then still fights to try to get depth and angle on yet another chance in the sequence. Which, to be fair, he's not exactly in fine shape...but who would be at this point? The puck is saved by the d-man behind him on the near post, while Lumley takes up the middle of the net, remaining in good form...torso upright, reading the puck off the stick.

Watch that Hainsworth OT goal again...you think he takes one stride in these situations? You think Worsley is even on the same street as the arena in these cases? No chance. Zero.

Even with 200,000 kilometers on him here late in 1959, he's still very quick and very good technically. This is very high end goaltending overall from him...



Watch him fight off the Leaf power play as a member of the Bruins. Isn't throwing himself all over, making the first move...very composed. Slides post to post, stick blade is confidently in the right spot. I tee'd it up for you to see him make a save on a second chance opportunity on the other side of the net once again, just like he had done 10 years prior. Remember what I said before about "save process"...it's generally not gonna change too, too much for most goalies. Now, you either get a save or you don't, but that might be predicated on the team in front of you...which is my whole stance in this really.

But look at 1949...look at 1959...he does exactly the same thing. Players with a process don't stray super far from their mean...situations do though. That's why talent... *clears throat*

Anyway...here's the leave-behind...

- Forced into the league at barely 17
- Got booted from a dream spot by Sawchuk at 23, but the first Cup in that run is Lumley's (he got them to the Final the previous two years as well...before Howe had any 1st Team AS nods or top 5 scoring finishes)
- Several sources cite that Chicago basically sucks at defense and that he had no chance, and this would be a theme for most of the rest of his career
- Still found time to eek out some statistical and award voting recognition - I'll leave that to you guys I guess
- After 12 years in pro hockey and a serious injury, went down to the minors with a sad sack team, was considered right there with Bower for best goalie down there despite the situation.
- Comes back up for the stretch run with Boston for a couple years...one time getting them into the playoffs with his late season run in a tight race.
- Then became one of the first (?) known goalie coaches because of his technical advents and expertise
- And he might well be the Father of Modern Goaltending. Doing things in the late 40's that were not only picked up by the next generation, but things that are still en vogue today...that's a big deal.

We were handed a list of goalies, many of which have no business at these reaches of the list, Gretzky's goalie, Tony O...and 60 in the playoffs, ol' garbage bag Hainsworth, the second-best "Gump" in pop culture...I say if you like goalie advents, if you want to shine a light on the forgotten men of history - especially those given a raw deal team-wise, if you want the first 300-game winner, if you want the Production Line's first Cup...you want Harry Lumley #1 this round.

 

[MXD]

...Can we just unvote Jack Stewart and Bill Quackenbush and Sid Abel and Ted Lindsay from the previous lists?

 

[jigglysquishy]

1968 East Finals

Montreal wins 2-1. No relevant Worsley comments except his penalties
Shots: Habs 35 Bruins 22
Habs 1 Bruins 0

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 5, 1968

Les Canadiens outskated the Bruins most of the way, and Boston goalie Gerry Cheevers was the most outstanding man on the ice.

For my money, the best two men on the ice (with the exception of Cheevers) were Jean Beliveau and John McKenzie.

Montreal wins 5-3
Shots: Habs 41 Bruins 20
Habs 2 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 8, 1968

The defence stood up well - especially Jacques Laperrier who has never played better - while Gump Worsley made the key saves required.

Only several big saves by Cheevers kept Boston close.

Montreal wins 5-2
Shots: Habs 33 Bruins 27
Habs 3 Bruins 0

The Bryan Times · ‎Apr 10, 1968

Goalie Worsley Overpowers Bruins

Gump Worsley, who just won't act his age, is teaching the young, ambitious Boston Bruins a thing or two about hockey. Worsley, who'll be 39 on May 14, turned in an excellent game in the nets Tuesday night.

Montreal wins 3-2
Shots: Habs 34 Bruins 37
Habs 4 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 12, 1968

Worsley, the victim of a crazy rumour that he had suffered a heart attack here Wednesday, almost didn't finish the contest after getting hit flush on the elbow by a shot by Ron Murphy.

"If one guy beat us more than the rest, it was Worsley," said Boston center Phil Esposito.

Worsley might be the most praised Hab this series. Lots of praise goes around - Beliveau, Henri Richard, Lemaire, Duff, Laperrier, Backstrom, Provost. I'm surprised how little Orr is mentioned. Cheevers is the most praised Bruin, followed by Esposito.


1969 Eastern Final
Montreal wins 3-2 in OT
Shots: Habs 35 Bruins 23
Habs 1 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 11, 1969

Canadiens just couldn't fathom Gerry Cheevers' brilliant goaltending, the rock-em defence led by Ted Green and Bobby Orr, nor their lack of skating room against the vistors' steady fore-checking.

Worsley made his biggest save of the game on a sizzler by Sanderson from 20-foot range.

Montreal wins 4-3 in OT
Shots: Habs 34 Bruins 30
Habs 2 Bruins 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 14, 1969

The question remained - are the Canadiens just too good or the Bruins too immature under Stanley Cup playoff pressure?

Phil Esposito and Ken Hodge were robbed by veteran Gump Worlsey's great saves on the shot and rebound.

The Canadiens were all over them in the overtime after Worsley made a brilliant stop of Fred Stanifeld's big chance from 30 feet. The Gumper, who chalked up his 17th straight playoff victory, came up with great stops on ORr and Green before his game saver against Esposito and Hodge in the finale.

Boston wins 5-0
Shots: Habs 34 Bruins 31
Habs 2 Bruins 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 18, 1969

Coach Harry Sinden had the last move in the battle of line changes and Phil Esposito was his king of the night.

Bruins rewarded Gerry Cheevers for his great netminding... Cheevers' brilliant goaltending and excellent defence effort of Ted Green, Bobby Orr, Don Awrey, and Dallas Smith, helped to stall the Canadiens.

Worsley, suffering his first loss in 18 playoff games going back to last season, was hot in the first two periods before he joined the whole team in a third period letdown.

Boston wins 3-2
Shots: Habs 30 Bruins 32
Habs 2 Bruins 2

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 21, 1969

Canadiens were without the services of veteran netminder Lorne Worsley who... suffered a dislocated finger in his left hand when hit by a hard shot by Boston's Ken Hodge. Worsley finished the game.

Montreal wins 4-2
Shots: Habs 25 Bruins 42
Habs 3 Bruins 2

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 23, 1969

Vachon blocked 40 shots, 24 in the second period.

Orr, who lead rush after rush throughout the game. He played about 38 minutes and didn't make many mistakes.

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 23, 1969

Coach Harry Sinden appeared to be tearing his hair out as Vachon saved or his Bruins missed countless chances.

Vachon hardly believed he had 26 shots in the second period - but figured this was his best game of the season in Montreal.

There was no doubt Vachon made the difference in the long run, but over-all the Canadiens played one of their best skating games of the series. The line of Ralph Backstrom, Provost, and John Ferguson were always dangerous.

Montreal wins 2-1 in double OT
Shots: Habs 47 Bruins 51
Habs 4 Bruins 2

The Phoenix · ‎Apr 25, 1969

When the Bruins stormed back in the first overtime, Rogatien Vachon was there to stop them. Vachon, once called a junior B goaltender, proved he belongs in the big time with his second successive display of brilliance.

It was a duel between Vachon and Cheevers as both clubs went for broke.

Orr... had two chances in a row to get even with 53 seconds left in regulation time, but Vachon was not to be beaten. The young Boston star pressed in the first overtime period and led rush after rush.

After Beliveau's goal, Cheevers skated all the way down the ice to congratulate Vachon.

Another case of Montreal's obscene depth. Vachon is praised more than Worsley when he comes in. About 10 Hab players are in contention for most praised. Orr and Cheevers most praised for Boston.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

God bless newspapers.com.