HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 5

Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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I think we can - with extreme confidence - have Hainsworth as an NR on every ballot this round. I don't like saying things like that, but it's so clear that this guy wasn't thought of very well, the little bit of film we have confirms that (and then some, in my opinion). I think that's an easy name to cross out.

Who's next?
 
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jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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I think we can - with extreme confidence - have Hainsworth as an NR on every ballot this round. I don't like saying things like that, but it's so clear that this guy wasn't thought of very well, the little bit of film we have confirms that (and then some, in my opinion). I think that's an easy name to cross out.

Who's next?
I wouldn't be surprised if I rank him 10th or NR.

I have Hainsworth, Worsley, and Fuhr fighting for 10th spot right now and all are making a case for NR.
 
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blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Here are career save percentages of Holeček, Tretiak and Dzurilla (all major international tournaments they took part in):

Jiří Holeček (CSSR):
- 13 major international tournaments between 1966-1978
- 76 games / 150 goals allowed / 1761 saves / 0.9215

Vladislav Tretiak
(USSR):
- 19 major international tournaments between 1970-1984
- 126 games / 228 goals allowed / 2801 saves / 0.9247

Vladimír Dzurilla
(CSSR):
- 12 major international tournaments between 1963-1977
- 67 games / 131 goals allowed / 1237 saves / 0.9042

Holeček has considerably higher career international SV% than Dzurilla, and lower than Tretiak's. What about the 1971-1978 time frame, i.e. period most beneficial for Holeček compared to Tretiak & Dzurilla?

Jiří Holeček (CSSR):
- 11 major international tournaments between 1971-1978
- 70 games / 139 goals allowed / 1654 saves / 0.9225

Vladislav Tretiak
(USSR):
- 11 major international tournaments between 1971-1978
- 75 games / 156 goals allowed / 1821 saves / 0.9211

Vladimír Dzurilla
(CSSR):
- 5 major international tournaments between 1971-1978
- 23 games / 41 goals allowed / 437 saves / 0.9142

Holeček looks better as expected. He's leading SV% over this 8-season span.
______________________________________________

I also wanted to take a look at simpler comparison - how many goals against the Soviet team and the Czechoslovak team allowed during Holeček's prime. (CC 1976 excluded due to different number of games played by Czechoslovakia and Soviet Union)

1971 WHC:
USSR 24
CSSR 20


1972 Olympics:
USSR 13
CSSR 13


1972 WHC:
USSR 17
CSSR 16


1973 WHC:
USSR 18
CSSR 20


1974 WHC:
USSR 18
CSSR 20


1975 WHC:
USSR 23
CSSR 19


1976 Olympics:
USSR 11
CSSR 10


1976 WHC:
USSR 15
CSSR 7


1977 WHC:
USSR 16
CSSR 20


1978 WHC:
USSR 23
CSSR 15


Overall GAs:
USSR 177
CSSR 160


During this time frame, Czechoslovaks won gold medals 3x, silver medals 5x, bronze medals 2x. Soviets won gold medals 7x, silver medals 2x, bronze medals 1x. Czechoslovakia was competitive with the Soviet Union, but remained well below them.

Superior USSR team success didn't transmit to defense. The main difference between the Soviet team and the Czechoslovak team lay in the offensive output, not in the defensive results. Any time before or after 1971-1978 will show Soviets being the best in whatever offense or defense team metric you can think of. Holeček deserves credit for this.

Leaving out CC76 is leaving out their only best-on-best appearance, no?

1976 Canada Cup (SILVER)
Dzurilla 5 GP, .920, 2.36
Holecek 5 GP, .861, 3.25

As for the others:

1966 WC (SILVER)
Dzurilla 6 GP, .901, 1.97
Holecek 2 GP, .861, 2.58

1972 Olympics (BRONZE)
Dzurilla 5 GP, .926, 1.89
Holecek 3 GP, .849, 3.48

1972 WC (GOLD)
Dzurilla 4 GP, .925, 1.50
Holecek 3 GP, .923, 1.67

1976 WC (GOLD)
Dzurilla, 2 GP, .976, 0.50
Holecek 8 GP, .943, 1.63

1977 WC (GOLD)
Dzurilla, 7 GP, .888, 2.70
Hplecek, 4 GP, .870, 4.20

Holecek seems to get a lot of mileage out of being the hero of 1976 (when Martinec was the leading scorer and Pospisil voted top defender), but over the Gold medal WC wins, they split the games fairly evenly, with Dzurilla playing more in 1972 and 1977.

Dzurilla runs into Simpson's paradox. Dzurilla beats Holecek in every tournament, but he plays less in 1976 and more in 1977, so while he's 6-0 in head to head competition with Holecek for save percentage titles, he's 0-1 in the aggregate.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
8,350
9,051
Regina, Saskatchewan
Tony Esposito in the Cup Finals

1971 Finals
Chicago wins 2-1 in OT
Shots: Blackhawks 58 Habs 37
Blackhawks 1 Canadiens 0

The Calgary Herald · ‎May 5, 1971
The limited scoring in just over four periods of end-to-end hockey was due mainly to the excellent goaltending of Chicago's Tony Esposito and young Ken Dryden.

Bobby Hull gave credit to Dryden, a 24-year-old rookie. "He's a real good goalie," Hull said. "I'll tell you one thing, he doesn't make many mistakes."
The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 5, 1971
Tony Esposito had his moments of glory in the second period.

[Canadiens] put on the pressure without results against Esposito


Chicago wins 5-3
Shots: Blackhawks 35 Habs 27
Blackhawks 2 Canadiens 0

Herald-Journal · ‎May 7, 1971
Only some standout goaltending by Chicago's Tony Esposito held Montreal at bay
The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 7, 1971
Esposito, who made 24 saves in a much easier game than that for Dryden


Montreal wins 4-2
Shots: Blackhawks 18 Habs 40
Blackhawks 2 Canadiens 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 10, 1971
Tony Esposito pulls off miraculous save around heavy traffic which includes Jean Beliveau, Frank Mahovlich, Pat Stapleton, and Bill White.

Take it from Serge Savard, neither Billy Reay with his good coaching moves nor Tony Esposito with his brilliant goal-tending, can stop the Canadiens all the way. "They just can't stop a team like this all the time," said the broken-legged Montreal defenceman... "All the goals we scored today were going for the top, that Esposito just can't be beaten down low."


Montreal wins 5-2
Shots: Blackhawks 32 Habs 32
Blackhawks 2 Canadiens 2

The Leader-Post · ‎May 12, 1971
Both Ken Dryden and Tony Esposito, in goal for Montreal and Chicago respectively, turned in fine performances.


Chicago wins 2-0
Shots: Blackhawks 22 Habs 31
Blackhawks 3 Canadiens 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 14, 1971
Against Chicago's standup defence and the clutch goal-tending of Tony Esposito.

Esposito blocked 31 shots for this second shutout of the 1971 playoffs. But Tony seldom had to pounce on a rebound while getting great protection.

Montreal wins 4-3
Shots: Blackhawks 30 Habs 16
Blackhawks 3 Canadiens 3

No relevant comments, but 4 goals on 16 shots isn't great.


Montreal wins 3-2
Shots: Blackhawks 33 Habs 25
Blackhawks 3 Canadiens 4

The Windsor Star · ‎May 19, 1971
Said Bobby Hull: "I don't blame Tony Esposito. Those goals like Jacques Lemaire's happen. I've got some myself. Ever after that, we were still leading and had the momentum. Their second goal took some sand out of us, though, although I don't know what happened."

The Evening News · ‎May 19, 1971
Jacques Lemaire then unloaded a 65-foot shot past goalie Tony Esposito to cut the lead in half.

Goalie Esposito said: "I have no excuses, not at all. I saw Lemaire's shot all the way and just missed it."


Overall, a strong series, but he is thoroughly outplayed by Dryden. The media is gushing all over Dryden in nearly every game. The Hawks had a strong offense and get lots of good opportunities, but Dryden is a wall. Esposito does good all things considered, but I'll note that he let in a bad goal in game 7 that likely cost them the game. Bobby Hull is the best player on the Hawks. The Mahovlich brothers get lots of praise in Montreal. I had to double check Mikita played as he's absent any positive mentions.



1973 Finals
Montreal wins 8-3
Shots: Blackhawks 30 Habs 38
Blackhawks 0 Canadiens 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 30, 1973
Tony Esposito, a guy who had allowed two goals on his last 116 shots, allowed two on the first four in this one.

Esposito didn't even finish the game. [Coach] Reay opting for Gary Smith after Chuck Lefley scored the game's final goal at 14:35 of the third period. "There was no criticism in that move," said Reay, "it was just that Tony has been under a lot of pressure in the last few days and I thought he could use a little rest."


Montreal wins 4-1
Shots: Blackhawks 19 Habs 29
Blackhawks 0 Canadiens 2

No relevant comments


Chicago wins 7-4. Mikita returns after missing game 2 and leaving game 1 with a broken finger.
Shots: Blackhawks 35 Habs 33
Blackhawks 1 Canadiens 2

The Windsor Star · ‎May 4, 1973
After the Hawks ran the count to 5-0 early in the second period, they backed off and paid for it. It took Canadiens most a scratchy second to get their foot in the door and then they flew at Tony Esposito in the Chicago nets in waves.


Montreal wins 4-0
Shots: Blackhawks 19 Habs 30
Blackhawks 1 Canadiens 3

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 7, 1973
Guy Lapointe, who all but has his initials carved on the Conn Smythe Trophy...set up Claude Larose in front, forcing Tony Esposito to rise to the occasion once more to prevent a Candiens' landslide.

"I was worried," Bowman said. "You can outplay a team, but if you don't get the goals you're asking for heartbreak. IF Tony Esposito stops Cournoyer too, they might look around and say 'Hey, he's not going to give 'em anything more, - let's get a couple ourselves.' Thank God we got one on that shift."


Chicago wins 8-7
Shots: Blackhawks 29 Habs 31
Blackhawks 2 Canadiens 3

The Journal · ‎May 9, 1973
The real victims were the goalies - Ken Dryden of the Canadiens and Tony Esposito of the Hawks.

Esposito was so stunned by it all that he could hardly speak above a whisper. "Wide-open," said Esposito. " What else can you say? I think out of the 15 goals, three or four shouldn't have gone in.... Tonight the team carried me. I let in seven goals and they got me the victory."

Montreal wins 6-4
Shots: Blackhawks 27 Habs 33
Blackhawks 2 Canadiens 4

The Journal · ‎May 11, 1973
Scotty Bowman said "I think the Hawks are vastly underrated. Remember, they have guys like Tony Esposito, Bill White, Pat Stapleton and Stan Mikita. These guys are all-stars. When you beat them, you're beating a team that has the stuff."


The last four games, last two in particular, were sloppy. Esposito let in 17 goals in three games. The Hawks lacked depth, but the Canadiens had all of it. I don't want to blame Esposito too much here as he's not given any support. Mikita misses time and is clearly not healthy when he's playing.


Overall, he does much better in 1971 than in 1973 but he is also on a much better team. Not much in the way of praise of the Hawks' defensive work. The Hawks are thoroughly outmatched in both series. The Montreal depth is way too much to overcome. In 1973 in particular, the Hawks just don't have a team that can reasonably win the Cup.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,363
7,685
Regina, SK
I will be ranking Hainsworth. Probably not highly, but I definitely see at least a few guys I like him better than. Only 15 years ago he was consistently rated a top 10 goalie by people like us. And I was probably at the forefront of the backlash against him and the dangers of looking at his three straight vezinas as justification for him being the next guy after Dryden or durnan or whoever. But in that regard, I think the pendulum has swung far enough that now I may actually be one of his defenders.
 
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Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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NYC
www.youtube.com
Only 15 years ago he was consistently rated a top 10 goalie by people like us.
And Nail Yakupov was ranked as the next.........................

There's just no case for Hainsworth at all...unless you want to ignore most contemporary opinion and take the stats of pre-forward pass goaltending...in which case, put Connell at #1 and slide everyone down.
 
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