HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 5

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 12 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means two names out of these twelve will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, November 8th at midnight and continue through Sunday, November 10th at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, November 11th, at which point the next voting thread will begin.


Vote 3 Candidates

• Tony Esposito
• Grant Fuhr
• George Hainsworth
• Connor Hellebuyck
• Jiri Holecek
• Hap Holmes
• Hugh Lehman
• Harry Lumley
• Billy Smith
• Tiny Thompson
• Gump Worsley
• Roy Worters

Click to read more...

 

[bobholly39]

I had Hellebuyck quite low on my initial list and I regretted it afterwards.

He actually has more games played than Vasilevskiy, which feels weird due to all of Vasi's playoff successes, where it feels he's just been around longer.

He has 2 vezina's, and 5 top 4 finishes which is really, really good in today's NHL. That's as many top 4s as Luongo, and 1 less than Lundqvist, for modern day equivalents with really long/consistent careers. And with only 9 games played, he seems on track for another strong season in Winnipeg this year, so he doesn't seem "done" at all at age 31.

I am considering him strongly for #1 in this round - even though his playoffs are not that good.

Also curious to see a Smith vs Fuhr comparison. I'd love to understand's Fuhr's playoffs a bit more - can you swap out any average goalie into Edmonton for those cups, and 0 impact? Or was he really instrumental to success? I tend to think it's the former.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Very new group this week.

I don't think there's a big gap between Benedict and Lehman. But I see a decent gap between Lehman and Holmes.

If not for playoffs, Hellebucyk would have gone last round. I don't think he deserves the reputation as a terrible playoff goalie. The Jets' poor system defensive and weak defensive depth gets exposed in the playoffs. Last year vs the Avs was a great example of him being left to die all series. Last time the Jets had strong defense he posted a 922 and went to the Conference Finals.

It's definitely time for Holocek.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh my...

This is an ugly, ugly group...

None of Esposito, Fuhr, Hainsworth, Holmes, Lehman, or Worsley were inside my top 50 (Fuhr was 50th).

That said, I had Lumley higher than everyone I imagine. So that's a nice add here. I guess I'll go to work on him, as I think he should probably be at the top of the ballot at first blush.

Ugh, yuck...my goodness...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Billy Smith in the Stanley Cup Finals

1980 Finals
Islanders beat Flyers 4-3 in OT
Shots: Islanders 36 Flyers 33
Islanders 1 Flyers 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 14, 1980

Seldom has a Stanley Cup game accentuated so many negatives. Where we had expected a thrilling opener... we instead were treated to bad defence from the defencemen, dreadful passing from the forwards, and all-around poor shooting.

Marksmen managed to gum them all up with either the inability to lift the puck or by aiming it directly at the pads of Peeters or Billy Smith.

Flyers win 8-3
Shots: Islanders 23 Flyers 31
Smith is pulled after allowing 6 goals on 26 shots
Islanders 1 Flyers 1

The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 14, 1980

Smith continued to claim his territory was being invaded. "They were in my crease more tonight than they ever have been, so what could I do?" he complained. "I didn't play well and I think I let the guys down. I didn't make a big save all night... I've been playing well and I haven't had a bad game until tonight, so it's out of my system now."

Islanders win 6-2
Shots: Islanders 40 Flyers 32
Phil Myre is in replacement for Pete Peeters and gets shelled
Islanders 2 Flyers 1

The Morning Record and Journal · ‎May 19, 1980

The Islanders went 5-for-5 with a manpower advantage. Smith, however, believes there was another key to the lopsided victory... "I think some people might overlook our penalty killers," the goalie said. "I know we had five power-play goals but we also had a lot of penalties against us and how many did the Flyers get? None. And we also got a short-handed goal. Lorne Henning and Butch Goring and Bourne and the other guys did a super job of killing penalties." Smith, who played a solid game himself, was right on the mark.

Islanders win 5-2
Shots: Islanders 27 Flyers 36
Islanders 3 Flyers 1

The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 20, 1980

"They had us on the run, in the second period, but Smitty came up with some big saved. " said Trottier of the NY goaltender Billy Smith.

Flyers win 6-3
Shots: Islanders 38 Flyers 31
Pete Peeters gets high praise.
Islanders 3 Flyers 2


The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 23, 1980

The Flyers charged out of the gate, only to be foiled on several early chances by Smith.

Rick MacLeish said the Flyers enjoyed better success against Islander goaltender Billy Smith because Philadelphia was taking more shots with their chances, something they hadn't done in earlier games. MacLeish said. "Billy's the kind of guy who sits in the net and really doesn't come out to challenge the shooters."

The Islanders win 5-4 in OT
Shots: Islanders 33 Flyers 25
Islanders 4 Flyers 2

The Calgary Herald · ‎May 26, 1980

"Billy Smith played extremely well," said Bossy. "I don't think I can describe the way Billy played in the series. Although he might not get the recognition, I know that he knows he played very well."

Good, but not great series. Certainly he gets praise from teammates, but media praise is absent. Across the six games, media praises Peeters more than they do Smith. I get the impression games tended towards high-flying low-defence.



1981 Finals
Islanders win 6-3
Shots: Islanders 23 North Stars 26
Islanders 1 North Stars 0

Record-Journal · ‎May 13, 1981

The North Stars came out skating and put early pressure on Smith, but New York's defensemen did an excellent job of planting their bodies between the puck and the net as they blocked several shots.

The North Stars' best opportunity in the first period came on a deft move by Steve Christoff, who skirted around Denis Potvin and bust in alone on Smith. But the Islanders' goalie made a sprawling stick save.

Islanders win 6-3
Shots: Islanders 38 North Stars 28
Islanders 2 North Stars 0

The Calgary Herald · ‎May 15, 1981

Billy Smith was shaken up on Payne's goal, when the Minnesota forward rammed into the Islanders' goalie, hurting his left arm. "I gave up a bad rebound on the first shot by (Tim) Young and Payne got it," said Smith. "I knew I was hurt...and, which I saw the puck in the net, I figured: "Get me out of here."

Islanders win 7-5
Shots: Islanders 28 North Stars 28
Islanders 3 North Stars 0


Observer-Reporter · ‎May 18, 1981

Now only half of that tandem, Billy Smith, remains with the New York Islanders and the full goaltending load in the Stanley Cup playoffs has been placed on his shoulders.
Now only Roland Melanson, a highly regarded rookie who has started only one game in these playoffs, stands behind Smith.
For once, Smith clearly is No.1. In attaining that status, he has had to change his personality on and off the ice. Once the most feared stick-swinger of all NHL goalies, Smith has calmed down considerably.

Stars win 4-2
Shots: Islanders 35 North Stars 34
Islanders 3 North Stars 1

Toledo Blade · ‎May 20, 1981

In a game marked by outstanding performances by goaltenders Don Beaupre of Minnesota and New York's Billy Smith.

Islanders win 5-1
Shots: Islanders 33 North Stars 25
Islanders 4 North Stars 1

The Pittsburgh Press · ‎May 22, 1981

[Referring to second period] Only four of the North Stars' shots got through the New York defense to goalie Billy Smith, who stopped them all. But it was the defending champions' awesome depth, more so than Smith, that spelled the difference in the period.

Overall, Smith isn't getting a lot of praise. Potvin and Bossy get singled out, but depth is kind of the star of the show. One thing is for sure, the Islanders thoroughly outplayed the North Stars for 90% of the series.



1982 Finals
Islanders win 6-5 in OT
Shots: Islanders 36 Canucks 35
Islanders 1 Canucks 0

No relevant Smith comments. Bossy gets high praise


Islanders win 6-4
Shots: Islanders 36 Canucks 30
Tiger Williams got in a tussle with Billy Smith, which all the newspapers focus on
Islanders 2 Canucks 0

The Vancouver Sun · ‎May 12, 1982

Minor quickly tied it with his first playoff goal, on a soft shot that Smith misplayed.

Islanders win 3-0
Shots: Islanders 31 Canucks 23
Islanders 3 Canucks 0


The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 14, 1982

The Islanders played close to error-free hockey, getting a shutout from goaltender Billy Smith and second-period goals from Gillies and Bossy.

Smith was being modest about it all, but his coach and teammates were quick to point to his perfect game as a key to the victory. Smith yielded few rebounds in posting his first playoff shutout in two years.
"That's the best game he's played and the way he controlled his emotions was super," said centre Bryan Trottier.

Islanders win 3-1
Shots: Islanders 28 Canucks 24
Islanders 4 Canucks 0

The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 17, 1982

New York then threw up a wall in front of goaltender Billy Smith in Vancouver and won 3-0 and 3-1.

Brodeur and Smith, both brilliant in the playoffs, finished off in fine style.

Smith's best series so far, but again the Islanders' defence is highly noted. Smith's penchant for bad penalties is noted as are the scoring prowess of Bossy and Trottier.



1983 Finals
Islanders win 2-0
Shots: Islanders 23 Oilers 35
Islanders 1 Oilers 0

The Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎May 11, 1983

It was simply a case of too much Billy Smith, defenceman Kevin Lowe said after his Edmonton Oilers were shut out 2-0 by New York Islanders. "We played an excellent hockey game," Lowe said, "but so did Smith - it was as simple as that."

Islanders coach Al Arbour didn't mince words. "The performance of Billy Smith in goal tonight was extraordinary. He's done this time and time again in the Stanley Cup playoffs and he certainly came up with a great performance tonight."

Glen Sather gave Smith, who now has allowed just one goal in his last three Cup final games, his due as a great goaltender.

Islanders win 6-3
Shots: Islanders 25 Oilers 33
Smith slashes Gretzky at the end of the game and got a 5 minute major and then got speared by Dave Lumley. Smith also slashed Glenn Anderson.
Islanders 2 Oilers 0

Nothing relevant as all the Smith talked is about the violence


Islanders win 5-1
Shots: Islanders 28 Oilers 34
Islanders 3 Oilers 0

Ottawa Citizen · ‎May 16, 1983

Gretzky says he has had his share of opportunities but it has been a post or a bounce the wrong way or Billy Smith: "He has been exceptional."

Billy Smith has to be the No. 1 choice for the Conn Smythe Trophy as the most valuable play in the playoffs. But for him, the champions might well have been trailing the final series two games to one.

Islanders win 4-2
Shots: Islanders 25 Oilers 26
Islanders 4 Oilers 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 18, 1983

Billy Smith, winner of the Conn Smythe, freely admitted last night he faked an injury and drew a five- minute slashing penalty in the final period just as the Oilers were putting extreme heat on the New York Islanders. "When that happens," said Wayne Gretzky, stopped without a goal in the four-game NY sweep, "the whole league looks bush."

Predictably, New York Islanders' goaltender Billy Smith is the winner of the Conn Smythe Trophy.... Smith allowed six goals in the four games against the Oilers, which was the principle reason for his Smythe recognition.

A really strong series by Smith, though it's weird how much his stick-swinging dominates discussion. Holding the Oilers to 1.5 GPG is incredible and there isn't much praise for Islanders team defence.



1984 Finals
Oilers win 1-0
Shots: Islanders 34 Oilers 38
Islanders 0 Oilers 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 11, 1984

The other guy is Islanders goaltender Billy Smith, who stopped 37 shots last night. On any other night, he probably would have been a bloomin' hero for his work, but Fuhr, who came into the game with a 3.04 GAA, stunned everyone with his exceptional work.

Islanders win 6-1
Shots: Islanders 26 Oilers 23
Islanders 1 Oilers 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎May 14, 1984

Smith let in one goal that night, and his team lost by one. He let in one goal Saturday night, and his team won by five. In his last five playoff games, Bill Smith has allowed all of five goals against, one in each game.

"With no slight intended at Mike Bossy, Denis Potvin, or Bryan Trottier, this team wouldn't have won four straight Stanley Cups if if hadn't been for Billy Smith," said Islander forward Bob Bourne.

Oilers in 7-2
Shots: Islanders 25 Oilers 40
Smith is pulled after allowing 6 goals on 31 shots.
Islanders 1 Oilers 2

The Day · ‎May 16, 1984

It took the Edmonton Oilers seven games of Stanley Cup final play before they could solve the riddle of Billy Smith. Now that they have done so they might just be a different team.
"We showed ourselves that maybe Billy Smith isn't invincible after all, "said Edmonton's Mark Messier.

The Oilers didn't need a perfect shot Tuesday night. They got enough sloppy rebounds from Smith to turn matters their way.

Oilers win 7-2
Shots: Islanders 21 Oilers 38
Islanders 1 Oilers 3

The Montreal Gazette · ‎May 18, 1984

They made a mere mortal out of goaltender Billy Smith, who committed several fundamental errors last night, although he received little, if any help, from the people in front of him.

Smith saves brilliantly on Messier, and nobody's around to stop Lindstrom from slipping the rebound into the open net.

Islander Billy Smith is helpless as puck goes into net on Wayne Gretzky breakaway.

Oilers win 5-2
Shots: Islanders 25 Oilers 23
Smith is pulled in second period after allowing 2 goals on 9 shots. Melanson allows 2 on 14 shots.
Islanders 1 Oilers 4

No relevant comments about Smith.


Not as strong as 1983, but his second best series overall. He held to Oilers to 2 goals through 2 games, then got shelled for 15 goals in 2.5 games. I don't think it's fair to blame him either, as the lack of Islanders defence comes up a bit and backup Melanson played terribly.




A mixed bag here. Not a lot of greatness in 1980 or 1981. Some good praise in 1982. Tremendous in 1983 and the first half of 1984. Certainly the Cup winning years there's loads of praise for the Islanders depth and defensive prowess. They routinely are putting up 5+ goals on the opposition so his job is easy. But I really do think he shines against the Oilers in 1983. It's clear the Islanders lost a step in 1984 with Potvin being absent from newspaper praise.


Fuhr has some good games, but Moog looks terrible.

 

[MXD]

My first reaction was that we're lucky it's a 12-names group because that means at most one of Thompson, Fuhr or Lumley will have been ranked. I'd definitely rather have a 13-names list, but wtv.

I ranked Connor Hellebuyck too low in round 1, but had I known he'd be available one full round ahead of Mikka Kiprusoff, I'd probably have ranked him even lower. Hellebuyck being available at least one round before Kiprusoff (and also Curtis Joseph and John Vanbiesbrouck while we're at it) seems to go against the idea of coming up with the best list as possible. Despite all of that, there's absolutely no way I'm again making the mistake of ranking him below Grant Fuhr, and I'd be extremely surprised if he's below Thompson and Lumley at the end of this process.

 

[frisco]

Not to belabor things, but I was hoping Barrasso would come up this round. Vezina finalists:

Tom Barrasso 1-2-2-2-3
Belfour-1-1-2-3
Lundqvist 1-2-3-3-3
Vasy 1-2-3-3
Luongo 2-3-3
Price 1-3
B.Smith 1
Fuhr 1-2-3-3
Hellebuyck 1-1-2-3

My Best-Carey

 

[frisco]

Procedure

• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means one name out of these twelve will be left unranked on your ballot.

Vote 3 Candidates

• Tony Esposito
• Grant Fuhr
• George Hainsworth
• Connor Hellebuyck
• Jiri Holecek
• Hap Holmes
• Hugh Lehman
• Harry Lumley
• Billy Smith
• Tiny Thompson
• Gump Worsley
• Roy Worters

There is 12 listed. Do we do a Top 10 (two guys left out)? Or Top 11 with one left out?

My Best-Carey

 

[Professor What]

There is 12 listed. Do we do a Top 10 (two guys left out)? Or Top 11 with one left out?

My Best-Carey

A top ten with two left out.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not to belabor things but, I was hoping Barrasso would come up this round. Vezina finalists:

Tom Barrasso 1-2-2-2-3
Belfour-1-1-2-3
Lundqvist 1-2-3-3-3
Vasy 1-2-3-3
Luongo 2-3-3
Price 1-3
B.Smith 1
Fuhr 1-2-3-3
Hellebuyck 1-1-2-3

My Best-Carey

Every era! Every era!

- "Well...not that era, of course."

Not that I want Barrasso here now. Also not top 50 for me. But he'd fit right along with Gretzky's goalie...

 

[blogofmike]

Also curious to see a Smith vs Fuhr comparison. I'd love to understand's Fuhr's playoffs a bit more - can you swap out any average goalie into Edmonton for those cups, and 0 impact? Or was he really instrumental to success? I tend to think it's the former.

Swap him out for Andy Moog? Maybe. The 85 and 88 teams were pretty good, so a few goaltenders could still win (much like Billy Smith having an .850 save percentage as a win threshold, as discussed last round, though it's not like Smith posted an .851 and called it a day...)

"Any average goalie" is a reach. In short, Fuhr had to scramble more than other dynasty goalies. As much as they helped him with wins via goal support, the tradeoff is they also create more high danger chances for opponents. In one of the preliminary threads someone posted about Edmonton giving up a high danger chances, but I can't find that now.

Nevertheless, when accounting for era, Fuhr was a big game goalie. @Hockey Outsider found that Fuhr posted solid adjusted save percentages. (Remember these are era-adjusted only - Fuhr still faced a relatively dangerous chances).

And if you don't want to click on the link, their adjusted career save percentages have Brodeur at .911 and Fuhr at .910, Lundqvist at .909, Luongo at .908, and Price at .907.

For individual playoff runs, Fuhr's 88 run is tied with 96 Roy (.921), 85 Fuhr (.920) is tied with Cam Ward 06 and Mike Richter 94, Fuhr 87 is tied wirh Vasilevskiy 20 and Holtby 18 (.916). Fuhr 84 is listed at .920 , but we'll leave it for now (it's .920 but it is pretty far down the list, so maybe there's an error in transcription?)

The other thing about the 88 run is that Fuhr is 16-2-1 (blackout game) and it comes after 75 regular season games, and 9 Canada Cup games that fall. That's 103 meaningful games in 9 months.

The 1987 Canada Cup is a pretty good tournament. It doesn't look great because almost half of his sample is the Soviets, but here's how 1987 Canada Cup goalies did against Team USSR:

1987 Canada Cup Save Percentages vs USSR

Fuhr (4 GP)	.859
Hasek	.851
Lindmark (2 GP)	.816
Barrasso	.815
Takko	.811

That leaves him at .914 over 5 games against the Czechoslovakians, Swedes, Finns, and Americans, and .893 overall (4th overall - Hasek and Lindmark were at .894, and Vanbiesbrouck above everybody since Barrasso took the beating from the Soviets for Team USA.)

Fuhr also had the St. Louis renaissance to show he could help out a middling team.

You like a workhorse? He played 79 games behind a low voltage offense, but went down early in Game 2 of Round 1 with a torn ACL and MCL. (For what little time he had in the 96 playoffs, Fuhr was great, but it's only 70 minutes.)

In 1997, he plays 73 games and St. Louis draws the Wings again. According to the Detroit Free Press:

Bowman sought out Fuhr to congratulate him. “I’ve seen him at his best,” Bowman said, “and I don’t think he’s been any better than he was in this series.” Fuhr recorded two shutouts, posted a 2.18 goals-against average and had a .929 save percentage. Vernon didn’t have a shutout but had two more victories, beat Fuhr with a 2.07 goals-against and had a .917 save percentage.

“Mike gives us confidence,” Bowman said. “He’s an experienced goaltender. It’s really tough going against the Grant Fuhrs and Patrick Roy last season. They’ve won so much, they’ve carried teams. There is so much pressure.”

The 1997 Stanley Cup Champions scored 6 even strength goals in 6 games. It's probably the last really good showing against a strong opponent.

In 1998 Fuhr gives you a pedestrian 58 games. In round 1, the Kings (8th in GF) were swept, and Fuhr posted a .929 (avg Kings opponent .897). To my eye, he's less spectacular than in 1997 though, and the Quenneville structure is helping (defensively at least. Still not great at playoff scoring in spite of a #1 GF finish.) The Blues get beaten pretty handily in Round 2 by the Wings.

In 1999 Fuhr is in his last playoff run. Only 39 games as he has his second knee surgery in a year in February 1999, and his third since the Kypreos injury in 1996. He's shaky in Games 2 and 3 against Phoenix, but rallies to come back from a 3-1 series deficit, capped by a 35 save overtime shutout in his last Game 7. The game is on Youtube. Fuhr is solid, (it's a 1-0 shutout after all,) but he's far less dynamic than he was in his first 2 Blues seasons. In Round 2 they get the 99 Stars and lose in 6 (Fuhr .883). The Game 6 OT goal is a little soft, Hull throwing it a Fuhr's feet and Modano poking it in (kind of reminds me of the OT goal Modano/Hull got in the 2000 Finals against NJ.)

If you need a guy to steal you a playoff game, Grant Fuhr is on the list of people who you would ask to do that, and he's higher on the list than a Tony Esposito.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Harry Lumley in Stanley Cup Finals

1945 Finals
Leafs win 1-0
Red Wings 0 Leafs 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 7, 1945

McCool [Leafs goalie] and Lumley easily stopped the shots.

The crowd gave Lumley a tremendous hand when he stopped another Schriner breakaway.

Leafs win 2-0
Red Wings 0 Leafs 2

No relevant comments, but Toronto goalie Frank McCool gets loads of praise for back-to-back shutouts.


Leafs win 1-0
Red Wings 0 Leafs 3

Again no relevant comments as McCool has a threepeat shutout.


Red Wings win 5-3
Red Wings 1 Leafs 3

Ottawa Citizen · ‎April 16, 1945

Only the fact that McCool hit record-breaking heights kept 18-year-old Lumley out of the hockey spotlight. He yielded no more than four goals in the first three games of the Cup finals.

The Leader-Post · ‎April 16, 1945

Lumley is the most nonchalant 18-year-old we ever did see. He carries himself like Tiny Thompson or a Frankie Brimsek and never leaves his feet. Some day young Mr. Lumley is going to be one high class goalkeeper.

Red Wings win 2-0
Red Wings 2 Leafs 3

The Leader-Post · ‎April 20, 1945

McCool, who blanked Wings three straight as the series opened, looked for a while as if he might edge Harry Lumley in the netminding duel, but on the night's play Lumley handled 22 shots compared with 15 for McCool.

Red Wings win 1-0 in OT
Red Wings 3 Leafs 3

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 23, 1945

Young Harry Lumley in the Detroit nets played a brilliant game.

Leafs win 2-1
Red Wings 3 Leafs 4

Ottawa Citizen · ‎April 24, 1945

[McCool] got as hot as a firecracker in the playoffs, set a goal-tending record, but, when the boys were discussing the championship play after it ended, Harry Lumley's name was on every person's lips.... Lumley's performances, particularly in the sixth game, simply stole the spotlight from Hard-luck McCool.

Lots of praise for Lumley. That he is the bigger goalie star despite McCool getting three shutouts and a Cup win is pretty big.


1948 Finals
Leafs win 5-3
Red Wings 0 Leafs 1

Nothing relevant


Leafs win 4-2
Red Wings 0 Leafs 2

Leafs win 2-0
Red Wings 0 Leafs 3

Games was on Saturday/Sunday and it was still old-timey enough that there wasn't Sunday papers so this is all I got.

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 12, 1948

Harry Lumley turned back 19 Toronto shots as the Leafs were content to play mostly defensive after getting in front and putting the pressure squarely on the Red Wings. Lumley's best stop was on a first period shot Syl Apps blasted at him in the corner.

Leafs win 7-2
Red Wings 0 Leafs 4

The Telegraph · ‎April 15, 1948

Lumley kicked out at least four other shots from surging Toronto players who had broken into the clear. Altogether the Leafs registered exactly one-third of their shots in the playoff wind up as Lumley saved on only 14.

Not a lot of coverage on this series. Lumley gets some praise, but it was a top-to-bottom Leaf domination.



1949 Finals
Leafs win 3-2 in OT
Red Wings 0 Leafs 1

The Leader-Post · ‎April 9, 1949

Bob Dawes fluffed a chance to be the hero when his shot hit the goalpost and trickled on the line before Lumley made a frantic dive to stop it.

Leafs win 3-1
Red Wings 0 Leafs 2

No relevant comments


Leafs win 3-1
Red Wings 0 Leafs 3

The Michigan Daily · ‎April 14, 1949

On Toronto's other two goals, Lumley didn't look so good. Ted Kennedy squeezed a backhander between his pads and the post for what proved to be the deciding tally.

The Leafs pelted the puck at Lumley with regularity. In the final stanza they tested him 13 times and outshot the Wings for the night, 34-23.

Leafs win 3-1
Red Wings 0 Leafs 4

Ottawa Citizen · ‎April 18, 1949

Bentley made victory certain late in the third period with a 15-foot sizzler on which Lumley didn't have a chance.

But, in the last two, the Leafs had a 25-10 shooting margin and only Lumley's stout work kept the score down to three

Red Wings are thoroughly outplayed again. Lumley gets praised, but it's hard to get much when the Leafs are top-to-bottom better.



1950 Finals
Red Wings win 4-1
Shots: Red Wings 26 Rangers 25
Red Wings 1 Rangers 0

The Leader-Post · ‎April 12, 1950

The goal climaxed the Rangers' best drive of the night, in which they blazed four shots at Lumley before one got past him.

Lumley had 24 saves to Rayner's 22, but the New York goalie had the tougher evening as most of the New York shots gave the Red Wing netminder little difficulty.

Red Wings win 3-1
Red Wings 1 Rangers 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 14, 1950

A story is making the rounds that Terry Sawchuk, the Winnipeg youngster who this year starred for Indianapolis Caps, will be the Red Wing goalie and that Harry Lumley, current netman for the Wings, will go to Toronto. Detroit cannot keep a goalie of Sawchuk's calibre hidden in the American League for too long.

Red Wings win 4-0
Red Wings 2 Rangers 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎April 17, 1950

The agile Lumley, at 23 a veteran of six seasons in the NHL, blocked 24 New York shots to get his first shutout of the final series.

Although Lumley got the shutout, Rayner was the busier goalie.

What little back-slapping went on in the Detroit hockey dressing room Saturday night all fell on the wide shoulders of goalie Harry Lumley.

Rangers win 4-3 in OT
Red Wings 2 Rangers 2

The Windsor Daily Star · ‎April 19, 1950

Goalie Harry Lumley, who has been the outstanding Detroit performer in this series, just as he was in the semi-final against the Leafs,

Rangers win 2-1 in OT
Red Wings 2 Rangers 3

Edmonton Journal · ‎April 21, 1950

The Rangers appeared more dangerous, as their sallies on Lumley bothered the apple-checked goaltender far more than the long shots directed at Chuck Rayner at the other end.

Red Wings win 5-4
Red Wings 3 Rangers 3

Red Wings win 4-3 in OT
Red Wings 4 Rangers 3

Again, no Sunday paper

The Montreal Gazette · ‎April 24, 1950

"Boy, that was a long time coming," said the apple-cheeked Harry Lumley the stellar goalie.

Lumley turned in his most brilliant showing of the season although he had only 18 saves to 32 for Rayner. [On game 6]

Rayner made 39 saves during the night to 26 for Lumley [On game 7]

High praise throughout the series. Lots of back and forth games with Rangers dominating then the Red Wings dominating. Lindsay gets high praise too.

Interesting that baby Sawchuk is so good that he ousts 23-year-old Cup winning Lumley.

 

[overpass]

George Hainsworth is an old-time goalie whose current reputation is very different from his reputation in his time. Our list is going to be considerably lower on him than other goalie rankings, and it's worth documenting why.

Hainsworth was rated #9 all time in the THN Top 100 goalies of all time list. When his name has come up in the past 50 years, it has usually been in reference to his 94 career NHL shutouts, his 22 shutouts in the 44 game 1928-29 season, or his sub-1.00 GAA in that same season.

These accomplishments were also highlighted during Hainsworth's career, and after his retirement, as were his three straight Vezina trophies from 1926-27 through 1928-29 for fewest goals against. But he was also known for a career that was two and a half decades long, and for never missing the playoffs.

What is missing from Hainsworth's long career - and why we're not going to have him top ten, or top twenty - is a peak where he was considered the best goaltender in hockey. Despite the three consecutive Vezina wins pre-forward pass, he was only once voted the best goaltender by coaches or writers, and that very narrowly.

Charlie Gardiner has basically taken Hainsworth's place on our list. Hainsworth had the statistical peak, and those numbers have endured across the generations, but Gardiner was rated more highly during their careers.

Amateur career
Hainsworth was born in 1893 in Kew Gardens, the same Toronto suburb that produced Roy Worters and the Conacher brothers. His family moved to Berlin, Ontario (later renamed Kitchener due to anti-German sentiment during the Great War). Hainsworth played defence in public school hockey in Berlin, and then in the senior ranks of the Berlin City League.

He first played in goal in 1911 at the age of 17 or 18, offering to try his hand at nets when his city league team needed to fill the position, and his team won the league that season. He would remain in goal for the remaining 25 years of his hockey career.

The next season, 1911-12, he played for Berlin's team in the OHA junior league. Hainsworth later gave his date of birth as 1895 or 1898 to obscure his actual age, and he was said to have been a young prodigy in this season, but in fact he was 18 years old, a perfectly normal age to play in this league. He was a first team all-star in the OHA juniors.

Hainsworth then moved up to play goal for the Berlin intermediate team in the OHA. This was the highest amateur team in Berlin, but they played in the intermediate division of the OHA rather than the senior division. He spent the next three seasons in OHA intermediate, from 1912-13 through 1914-15, and won the league championship in 1913-14.

Berlin and Hainsworth moved up to the OHA senior division for the 1915-16 season. Before the 1916-17 season, Hainsworth moved to Toronto. He applied for his amateur card, intending to play for a Toronto club in the OHA, but was denied as he had moved to Toronto too late to be eligible to play for them. He played instead for the Kew Gardens team in the Toronto city league, and won the league championship.

In 1917-18, Hainsworth returned to Kitchener and played for their OHA senior team. That season Kitchener won the OHA and won the Allan Cup. While Hainsworth was often referred to as the best amateur goalie in Canada that spring and the following year, probably thanks to the spotlight he received in the Allan Cup, he remained in Kitchener playing amateur hockey for the next five years, until 1922-23. I'm not sure what his all-star record was in those seasons, but I've seen that Doc Stewart was the OHA first team all star goalie in three of those five seasons.

Professional career
Hainsworth finally turned professional at the age of 30. Newsy Lalonde badly needed a goaltender for the Saskatoon Sheikhs of the WCHL, and wrote to his former coach Leo Dandurand asking for a recommendation. Dandurand recommended Hainsworth of Kitchener and Jack Cameron of the Toronto Granites as the best pro prospects, and suggested Hainsworth was more likely to sign. Lalonde signed Hainsworth, who played the next three seasons in Saskatoon.

Saskatoon improved their goals against quite a bit with Hainsworth, but all-star honours did not immediately follow. Red McCusker and Hap Holmes were the first team WCHL all-star goalies in 1923-24 and 1924-25, and then Hainsworth was named the first team WHL all-star for the 1925-26 season, ahead of Holmes, McCusker, Hugh Lehman, and Hal Winkler.

Montreal Canadiens signed Hainsworth to a big contract after the western league folded in 1926. And they had a huge turnaround, going from last place with goalie Herb Rheaume in 25-26 to second place in 26-27. Credit for the turnaround could be given to the additions of Hainsworth, of veteran defenceman Herb Gardiner who was said to have played every minutes of the season, of coach Cecil Hart, and also to the maturation of the young core of Howie Morenz, Aurel Joliat, Sylvio Mantha, and Pit Lepine.

Hainsworth won the Vezina trophy for fewest goals against in 1926-27, and was also voted as first team all-star goalie in a vote by the league's coaches. He was tied in voting points with Toronto's John Ross Roach, with the tie broken by an edge to Hainsworth in first place votes. Ironically, Toronto had bought Hainsworth's rights from Saskatoon in the offseason but Montreal had beaten them out by signing Hainsworth directly.

Hainsworth then had two incredible statistical regular seasons in 1927-28 and 1928-29, winning the Vezina trophy for fewest goals against, and allowing about a goal per game. However, Roy Worters was the choice of the league's coaches both seasons in postseason all star voting. Hainsworth finished a distant second in voting both seasons.

From 1929-30 on, Hainsworth played another seven seasons and never received any significant number of votes for the postseason all-star position. He did, however, backstop the Montreal Canadiens to two Stanley Cup victories in 1930 and 1931.

In 1933, Hainsworth estimated that he had about 160 shutouts over the course of his amateur and professional career, and had faced about 19,000 shots.

Hainsworth retired in 1936 when the Leafs decided to replace him with Turk Broda, stating that Broda was just as good and 15 years younger. Hainsworth revealed upon retiring that he was actually 43 years old, meaning that Broda was 21 years younger! In his 13 years of professional hockey, his teams had never missed the playoffs. He was a three time Vezina winner (26-27, 27-28, 28-29), a two-time Stanley Cup winner (1930, 1931), was once voted a first team all star in the WCHL (1925-26), and once in the NHL (1926-27).

Hainsworth's major NHL accomplishments all came from 1926-27 to 1930-31. Which lines up very well with Cecil Hart's first coaching stint in Montreal (1926-27 to 1931-32), Howie Morenz's GOAT peak (1924-25 to 1931-32), and also prime seasons for Joliat, Mantha, and Lepine. Your assessment of Hainsworth's contributions to the Canadiens' goals against record in these seasons will be important to your placement of Hainsworth.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It is quite remarkable how little contemporary interest there is in Hainsworth (period) and versus his stats, I agree. The very little film on him would agree with the contemporary opinion...

He just shouldn't be available right now.

 

[overpass]

Here's a description of the style of play employed by Hap Holmes.

Border Cities Star, Nov 18, 1926
Holmes is unique in that he is one goal-tender who rarely uses his hands or body in stopping shots. He depends mainly on his stick. To one less experienced and clever, this would be dangerous, because a high shot stopped by a stick is always likely to bounce out of reach of the "goalie", possibly into a position which gives an opponent a chance to score. Holmes, however, knows just how to handle that stick. As the puck comes in contact with it, at no matter what height, he twists his stick downward quickly, so that the puck almost invariably falls "dead" right at his feet, from which position he can easily pass it out to one of his own defense men.


Holmes played pro lacrosse for eight years in addition to pro hockey, so I guess he used those stick skills to good effect as a goaltender.

I don't have the link handy, but I've also seen an article saying that Holmes wore smaller, more rounded leg pads than any other goalie, to allow him to move more freely.

It sounds like there was quite a bit of variation in individual style for goaltenders. We have Roy Worters leaping about and deflecting pucks away, Tiny Thompson catching everything with one hand like a first baseman, and now Holmes wielding his stick like a lacrosse player, knocking down shots.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't want Worters to necessarily get that "leaping" tag...though he was very aggressive and played on his toes, I think leapers have a very negative connotation (Jake Forbes). The same thing with WRs and TEs in football that leap to make every catch, it's actually a sign of poor traits, skills, athleticism, etc.

Though Holmes seems fairly well received contemporarily, I'm surprised that it's not higher regard considering the amount of Cups he won. It would be "easy" to heap praise upon him. Seems like Hugh Lehman is much more well regarded as a goalie, is he not?

Imagining a goalie just standing there knocking pucks down with his stick makes my stomach hurt...

 

[frisco]

Not that I want Barrasso here now. Also not top 50 for me.

You're just mad he didn't show up for Jagr's jersey retirement ceremony...

My Best-Carey

 

[overpass]

Though Holmes seems fairly well received contemporarily, I'm surprised that it's not higher regard considering the amount of Cups he won. It would be "easy" to heap praise upon him. Seems like Hugh Lehman is much more well regarded as a goalie, is he not?

Lehman / Holmes strikes me as another Durnan / Broda situation, where Lehman was widely regarded as better, but Holmes got the results in the end.

Except that Holmes won with several different teams, unlike Broda.

That said, Holmes' Cup winning teams had some similarities. For one, Holmes moved from Toronto to Seattle and Victoria together with forwards Frank Foyston and Jack Walker. They were referred to as the Three Musketeers at the time. Both Foyston and Walker could and did play all three forward positions. Foyston was an all-around offensive star and the best playoff scorer of his era, and Walker was a hook-check pioneer and first-class defensive forward. It's worth considering their contributions to the Cup winning teams with Holmes.

Imagining a goalie just standing there knocking pucks down with his stick makes my stomach hurt...

It's breaking my brain a little. I'm not a lacrosse fan but maybe I should watch some clips of lacrosse goalies to help wrap my head around this style.

 

[Professor What]

Swap him out for Andy Moog? Maybe. The 85 and 88 teams were pretty good, so a few goaltenders could still win (much like Billy Smith having an .850 save percentage as a win threshold, as discussed last round, though it's not like Smith posted an .851 and called it a day...)

"Any average goalie" is a reach. In short, Fuhr had to scramble more than other dynasty goalies. As much as they helped him with wins via goal support, the tradeoff is they also create more high danger chances for opponents. In one of the preliminary threads someone posted about Edmonton giving up a high danger chances, but I can't find that now.

Nevertheless, when accounting for era, Fuhr was a big game goalie. @Hockey Outsider found that Fuhr posted solid adjusted save percentages. (Remember these are era-adjusted only - Fuhr still faced a relatively dangerous chances).

And if you don't want to click on the link, their adjusted career save percentages have Brodeur at .911 and Fuhr at .910, Lundqvist at .909, Luongo at .908, and Price at .907.

For individual playoff runs, Fuhr's 88 run is tied with 96 Roy (.921), 85 Fuhr (.920) is tied with Cam Ward 06 and Mike Richter 94, Fuhr 87 is tied wirh Vasilevskiy 20 and Holtby 18 (.916). Fuhr 84 is listed at .920 , but we'll leave it for now (it's .920 but it is pretty far down the list, so maybe there's an error in transcription?)

The other thing about the 88 run is that Fuhr is 16-2-1 (blackout game) and it comes after 75 regular season games, and 9 Canada Cup games that fall. That's 103 meaningful games in 9 months.

The 1987 Canada Cup is a pretty good tournament. It doesn't look great because almost half of his sample is the Soviets, but here's how 1987 Canada Cup goalies did against Team USSR:

1987 Canada Cup Save Percentages vs USSR

Fuhr (4 GP)	.859
Hasek	.851
Lindmark (2 GP)	.816
Barrasso	.815
Takko	.811

That leaves him at .914 over 5 games against the Czechoslovakians, Swedes, Finns, and Americans, and .893 overall (4th overall - Hasek and Lindmark were at .894, and Vanbiesbrouck above everybody since Barrasso took the beating from the Soviets for Team USA.)

Fuhr also had the St. Louis renaissance to show he could help out a middling team.

You like a workhorse? He played 79 games behind a low voltage offense, but went down early in Game 2 of Round 1 with a torn ACL and MCL. (For what little time he had in the 96 playoffs, Fuhr was great, but it's only 70 minutes.)

In 1997, he plays 73 games and St. Louis draws the Wings again. According to the Detroit Free Press:



The 1997 Stanley Cup Champions scored 6 even strength goals in 6 games. It's probably the last really good showing against a strong opponent.

In 1998 Fuhr gives you a pedestrian 58 games. In round 1, the Kings (8th in GF) were swept, and Fuhr posted a .929 (avg Kings opponent .897). To my eye, he's less spectacular than in 1997 though, and the Quenneville structure is helping (defensively at least. Still not great at playoff scoring in spite of a #1 GF finish.) The Blues get beaten pretty handily in Round 2 by the Wings.

In 1999 Fuhr is in his last playoff run. Only 39 games as he has his second knee surgery in a year in February 1999, and his third since the Kypreos injury in 1996. He's shaky in Games 2 and 3 against Phoenix, but rallies to come back from a 3-1 series deficit, capped by a 35 save overtime shutout in his last Game 7. The game is on Youtube. Fuhr is solid, (it's a 1-0 shutout after all,) but he's far less dynamic than he was in his first 2 Blues seasons. In Round 2 they get the 99 Stars and lose in 6 (Fuhr .883). The Game 6 OT goal is a little soft, Hull throwing it a Fuhr's feet and Modano poking it in (kind of reminds me of the OT goal Modano/Hull got in the 2000 Finals against NJ.)

If you need a guy to steal you a playoff game, Grant Fuhr is on the list of people who you would ask to do that, and he's higher on the list than a Tony Esposito.

I have to say, good case made for Fuhr. I came in pretty low on him, and you're making me rethink that a bit.