HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4

MXD

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He's eligible for this round and, for me, should already be up there. And this is - perhaps - the forum to do so...
As I said in my edit, I watched him play about 775 pro games... And I think he joined the ballot at the exact right time. Meaning he's for next round. A perfectly healthy Price (but still retiring in 2021) would absolutely have been Vote 3 material (or Top-15, if you will).
 
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Michael Farkas

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As I said in my edit, I watched him play about 775 pro games... And I think he joined the ballot at the exact right time. Meaning he's for next round. A perfectly healthy Price (but still retiring in 2021) would absolutely have been Vote 3 material (or Top-15, if you will).
So what is Price getting penalized for...his health?
 

Professor What

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Be nice, folks.
At least I'm only insulting myself. Lol

Not at all, you're a great poster! You always give your opinions fairly without acting like you're the all-seeing eye.

Definitely top 20 material!! :cool:
All jokes aside, I'm much more in the student zone here. I could beat the typical hockey fan on historical knowledge just because there's little understanding outside of our specialization, but I feel like most of our regular posters have me beat. I have fun with these projects, because I learn a lot, but I admittedly sometimes question what I offer.
 

nabby12

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All jokes aside, I'm much more in the student zone here. I could beat the typical hockey fan on historical knowledge just because there's little understanding outside of our specialization, but I feel like most of our regular posters have me beat. I have fun with these projects, because I learn a lot, but I admittedly sometimes question what I offer.
You've been doing great here, and even in the ATD as I know you were a newbie there the last few years. Keep it up as we need more posters like you!
 

Professor What

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You've been doing great here, and even in the ATD as I know you were a newbie there the last few years. Keep it up as we need more posters like you!
Well, in the last couple of years in the ATD, a lot of credit for any success has to go to @Hitru. I feel like I do better with someone to bounce ideas off of, and I think we've worked together pretty well. I think we both feel like we've learned a lot in working togehter.

Anyway, getting back to the project, I do have to say that whether I end up ranking Broda where I have him now or he drops, I'd like to feel better about it than what I do. I feel like there might be some tough remarks being made on him, but I can't shake the feeling that his current position for me is just because he started high and I haven't heard enough one way or the other. Benedict started close to him (actually a little ahead) but he's slid. I feel like we've had more solid remarks on him, while with Broda, I think the chapter you posted in the previous(?) thread is about the only real post we've had on him. I'd like to see that developed some.
 
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MXD

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So what is Price getting penalized for...his health?
He's not given credit for the achievements that did not materialize due to not playing, he's not given credit for being at 100% when he was at 75% (notice I didn't say "penalize him" -- penalizing him would be calling him a below-average NHL netminder in 2013, which he very clearly wasn't, he was just playing at 75%, which was deemed better than icing ... was it Dubnyk?) and so on.
 
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jigglysquishy

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We've got five goaltenders up who either played on dynasties or very near dynasties.

Benedict on the 1920s Senators
Broda on the 1940s Leafs
Bower on the 1960s Leafs
Smith on the 1980s Islanders
Vasilevsky on the 2020s Lightning

I actually think that's the order I'd put the teams in terms of defensive support.

In terms of offensive support

80s Islanders
2020s Lightning
1920s Sens
40s Leafs
60s Leafs

All except the Lightning were very strong defensively. All except the two Leafs teams were very strong offensively.

Benedict was the most dominant statistically. He also had the most defensive help.

Vasilevsky didn't actually play on a dynasty, but a four year stretch of dominant President's Trophy-Cup-Cup-Cup Final is as close as you can get.

Broda the clear leader in era context longevity. Bower and Benedict played forever, but so did their contemporaries. Obviously Vasilevskiy is still playing.

In terms of individual recognition through AS teams, awards, and contemporary opinion it's hard to have Smith anywhere but last. None run away with any individual hardware, though we're also getting to the part of the project where that's to be expected.

If Smith is still up next week I want to do a Cup Final dive. He played in 5 of them and they take forever to do.
 

MXD

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Playing behind an offensive team means you don't have the stress of giving away one or two goals because your team can reliably outscore the other (if it's good enough to win the Cup I mean). All things told, goalies on defensive-minded teams are probably more integral to their teams success. It doesn't make them necessarily better.
 

Michael Farkas

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Sure...we wouldn't want to call out a season like 2013...just like we don't want to call out Benedict for being the worst goalie in 1918, or Gardiner being the worst in 1928 and 1929. We know stats can be tricky little devils sometimes...

And sure, you watched him play hundreds of times...but...we don't really want that either, it doesn't seem.

What if...and this is just a hypothetical, of course...we took a panel of hockey men and asked them who the best goalie was, ya know, contemporary opinion...and they all said "clearly Carey Price" for a remarkable length of time, despite maybe only playing at 75% or having a team made up of spare parts or whatever...

Boy, that seems to work sometimes...doesn't look like it's gonna consistently work though...I wonder... *straightens dunce cap*
 
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nabby12

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Posting my chapter on Broda again for those that missed it. Surely, there's some points here that can be expanded on:

Turk Broda was one of the best money goaltenders of all-time, and by that I mean he played his best when it really mattered most. With five Stanley Cup's and a pair of Stanley Cup's, he's certainly the greatest netminder the Toronto Maple Leafs franchise has ever seen.

"When the playoff bucks were on the line," noted Toronto Star writer Gary Lautens wrote, "the Turk could catch lint in a hurricane."

"For one thing, I always needed the money from the playoffs," Turk said. "But it probably was a case of me being too dumb to realize how serious it was and never letting the pressure get to me."

It's hard to make a case for many goalies being better than Broda was. This is a man who won the Cup in 1942 and then missed two years of his prime because he was serving in the Second World War. When he returned, he played better than before the war and won four more Stanley Cup's, which is truly incredible stuff.

"He won me four Stanley Cups," recalls Maple Leafs teammate Howie Meeker. "Without Broda, we win maybe only one Cup because out of those four playoff runs, we only had the best team in one of those years. Broda led us. We had no reason to win the goddamn thing but he did it for us because he was so excellent in the net, that's why he's in the Hall of Fame. In my playing era and broadcasting era, he was by the far the best goalie I'd ever seen."

Broda always had this happy-go-lucky, jolly nature about him and used to say that "the Maple Leafs pay me for my work in practices. I throw in the games for free."

Walter "Turk" Broda was born on May 14th 1914 in Brandon to a Ukrainian family. He got the nickname "Turk" as a result of an English history lesson and his mass of freckles. His school teacher had been telling them about an English king who, behind his back, was called "Turkey Egg" by his intimates because of the huge freckles that dotted his round face. The class was no sooner out than one of Broda's school chums laughed and said, "Hey, look at Broda. He looks like a turkey egg, too." From that day on they called him "Turkey-Egg" or "Turkey" until eventually, as he grew older, he became just plain "Turk."

Broda got into hockey from the time he attended his elementary school, playing on the outdoor rink with his chums. He was a pudgy young man and a poor skater, yet he contained an incredible enthusiasm for playing the game, so he was always stuck in net because of his poor skating. Turk would cover his legs with paper to help pad and legs and then let his friends fire pucks on him for hours at a time.

The principal of the school Broda attended in Brandon was a hockey fan and when Turk showed an interest in playing goal, the school head decided to help him. Almost daily until the cold weather set in they would head to the basement of the school and engage in a half-hour hockey drill. Turk would don the goal pads and stand guard on a six-foot section of the wall while the school principal would fire the puck at him from all angles or stickhandle, as well as possible on the concrete floor, to Broda's faux net and then try to fool him with a quick deke.

From that modest beginning, Broda progressed rapidly and soon became a standout in Brandon juvenile hockey with a team known as the North Stars. He was so good that commercial and intermediate teams lured him from the age-limit ranks but so much fuss was made by Brandon junior officials that Turk was ordered to return to junior hockey.

Broda gained recognition as a top prospect when he performed remarkable feats of netminding for Brandon Native Sons against the Regina Pats in the 1932-33 Western Canadian junior finals. The Pats won the series, despite Broda standing on his head, but Turk's puck-stopping was the talk of the West. The next year he moved to Winnipeg to play for the Monarchs and the quality of his goal work attracted the attention of Gene Houghton, a scout with the Detroit Red Wings, who passed on his recommendations to the big club, who soon signed Broda to a C-form.

How Broda got to joining the Toronto Maple Leafs from Detroit is a good story in itself. The Leafs had wanted to replace George Hainsworth, who was nearly forty years old. Earl Robertson and Turk Broda were both property of the Detroit Red Wings, and it seemed like Robertson was going to be the likely replacement for Hainsworth.

Detroit GM Jack Adams had a soft spot for Broda from the beginning. They met after one season when the Red Wings were eliminated from the playoffs early, and were touring Western Canada and the Pacific Coast with the Toronto Maple Leafs, playing a series of exhibition games. In Winnipeg, the Detroit manager was sitting in his hotel room when someone rapped on the door. He opened the door and gazed upon two young fellows wearing sweaters with big letters in the front. They looked like High School kids.

"Mr. Adams?" one of the boys queried, nervously.

"That's right," Jack said, heartily. "What can I do for you?"

"I'm Turk Broda," the young fellow said. "And this is Mud Bruneteau."

He said the names as if they should be of high importance to the manager of the Detroit Red Wings. That was Turk's introduction to pro hockey. Adams knew then that Turk and Mud were of Red Wings property and they all chatted for a bit, and Jack introduced them to some of Detroit's players, and then gave the boys ticket's for that night's game. That's all that Turk and Mud wanted after all was free tickets. Jack Adams later invited Turk and Mud to the club's training camp.

The Red Wings were set in goal at the time with Normie Smith and John Ross Roach in the system so Turk started playing for the minor league Detroit Olympics. Broda was sensational in a three game battle with the Detroit Red Wings called the City Series. Thanks to Broda, the Olympics won the series in the final game and he was lifted out of the Red Wings dressing room after the game was done. When Turk was then sold soon after to the Toronto Maple Leafs for the then record sum of $8,000, he didn't even believe it when he first heard the news from his teammate and roommate Wilf Starr. Turk thought he was the victim of another prank as many teammates have had laughs at Broda's expense since he joined the Red Wings organization. All in good fun of course because of Turk's jovial nature. But this time it was for real, and it was here that Conn Smythe made his choice of Broda over Earl Robertson.

Broda went to Leafs training camp with the legendary George Hainsworth there and enjoyed the experience of getting to compete with an all-time great. "He's really great," Broda remarked. "I'd sure like to be as good as George one day. I've been studying him every chance I get, and I'm learning plenty."

Hainsworth and Broda had a legendary battle in training camp, and when it was all said and done, Conn Smythe decided to carry two goaltenders for the start of the season. They rotated starts but it was Turk who played phenomenal, while Hainsworth struggled. Within the first ten games of the season, Smythe made his choice and released Hainsworth outright from the Leafs, meaning that Turk had won the goaltending job.

Conn Smythe later recalled that, "I always believed in Broda. George Hainsworth started that 1937 season for us, but in Broda's first start he beat Detroit and I made up my mind. I released Hainsworth outright and said Broda is my goalie. He was the best I ever had with the Leafs."

Reporters loved Broda right from the start. They found his talkative, laughing self a good source of copy. The result of this is that Turk received an awful amount of publicity, both written and photographic. Broda lost the Stanley Cup final in his first three seasons with the team and began to think if he'd ever win one. To help improve his hand-eye coordination, he played handball until he became an expert at the game and would spot teammates ten points and still beat them.

"Broda knew that he could play goal and rise to heights," remarked Smythe, "but the past never worried him, not like some players who would have a bad night and then go all to pieces. He was also as decent and loyal as a man could be... decency and loyalty go a long way with me. So does great goalkeeping, and both were a part of Turk Broda."

Broda finally won his first Stanley Cup in 1942. In perhaps the most incredible comeback in playoff history, Toronto was down three games to none in the Cup finals against Detroit and rallied, winning four straight games. Something that hasn't been done before the Stanley Cup finals.

Turk joined the Army in 1943 and went off to do his military duty in the Second World War, which mainly consisted of playing hockey in England. When he was discharged from the Army during the 1945-46, Broda immediately rejoined his team at Maple Leaf Gardens for practice. By the time he returned however, there were new rules in place that changed the game. Installing the red line permitted forward passes into the neutral zone, which in turn opened up the ice and sped up play. Some returning veterans couldn't make the transition, and things got especially tough for goalies as defenses backed off from the neutral zone, resulting in more crowds in front of the net. Broda's solution was to move higher in the crease to see the puck around the traffic. He played as if he had never been gone.

Broda’s second tour of duty with the Leafs proved to be more successful than the first. The Leafs emerged as one of the greatest teams of all time. Broda would be the puck stopper in each of the Leafs Stanley Cup wins in 1947, 1948, 1949 and 1951. He was very good during those regular seasons, but come playoff time he somehow was able to take his game to a new level – he led the entire league in wins and shutouts in each of those Stanley Cup years, and in goals against average in 3 of the 4.

"The key to Broda's great success as a playoff goalie was his unflappable disposition," wrote Toronto columnist Jim Hunt. "On the afternoon of a Stanley Cup Final, his teammates would be pacing the floor and chain smoking cigarettes in an effort to calm their nerves. Meanwhile, Broda would be in his hotel room sleeping. Once, as Conn Smythe delivered an impassioned plea to his team just before they took the ice for an important game, he looked over and saw Broda sitting on a stool in front of his locker sound asleep."

Known during his career to let in the odd weak goal during the regular season, Broda was as stingy as a netminder you could find once the playoffs rolled around. In one three-season stretch of 24 playoff games, he surrendered only 34 goals. In losing a 1950 semifinal to the Detroit Red Wings, the Turk had three shutouts in Leaf wins and lost the seventh game, 1-0, in overtime.

Despite everything that Broda did on the ice, he will forever be known for the famous "Battle of the Bulge" incident that occurred during the 1949-50 season.

"Broda is off the team," declared Smythe. "I'm taking him out of the nets and he's not going back until he shows some common-sense. I've never had to do a thing like this before but it seems I'm running a fat man's team. Two years ago, Turk weighed 185 when he won the Vezina. Last season he went up to 190-and now this! A goalie has to have fast reflexes-and you can't move fast when you're overweight."

It wasn't just a ruse Broda quickly found out as Smythe announced that a young goalie out of Pittsburgh named Gil Mayer, would be replacing Broda for Thursday night's game with Detroit. As for the Saturday game, Smythe snapped, "That's up to Broda. If he gets down from 197 to 190, he'll play. Not before."

Smythe even went as far as making a trade with the Cleveland Barons to acquire a tall, slim goalie by the name of Al Rollins. The whole thing ended up becoming the hockey story of the year. Journalists had a field day with it, dubbing it "Broda's Battle of the Bulge." Newspapers were assigning sportswriters, feature writers, and photographers to cover Turk's effort to get down to the required weight. It was really quite the spectacle. Every day in the paper there would be pictures of Turk doing various exercises, or eating healthy foods.

It was a three day sensation. On November 30th he was down to 193 and the next day he was weighed in at 189 meaning that he made the cut, and would be guarding the Leafs goal the following game. He shut out the Rangers 2-0 in his first game back, even the Rangers congratulated him. As a reward, Broda treated himself to pancakes on the ice after the game.

Conn Smythe's remarked on Broda afterwards that "He's a fellow who loves to play hockey. There's no greater sportsman than the Turkey. He's a wonderful competitor."

Broda himself later commented years later how the scales had been rigged in his favor and he never lost a pound during the ordeal.

Turk's career came to an end at the beginning of his fourteenth NHL season with the Leafs. He was planning on playing one more year, but as he readied himself for the 1951-52 campaign, he realized that he was done so he retired after one game. On December 22, 1951, the Toronto Maple Leafs staged a Turk Broda Night at Maple Leaf Gardens. The immensely popular Broda was given gifts and accolades from around the National Hockey League.

Broda retired with a 302-224-101 record in 629 career NHL games (all with the Maple Leafs) with 62 shutouts. In addition to five Stanley Cup's, Broda was a two time Vezina Trophy winner (1941, 1948). He was named to the NHL's First All-Star Team twice (1941, 1948) and the Second Team All-Star once (1942). At the time of his retirement, Broda was the career leader in regular season wins with 302. He was the first goalie to play in 100 NHL playoff games. Broda was recently named one of the 100 Greatest NHL Players in history in 2017 for the NHL 100 event.

Broda went on to a tremendous junior coaching career. He coached the Toronto Marlboros to back-to-back Memorial Cups in 1955 and 1956. Turk spent his later life coaching plenty, but also found time to golf lots and go to the race track. He was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1967.

"He used to go back to Manitoba every year," recalled Turk's daughter Barbara Tushingham. "In those days you'd have to ask Mr. Smythe if you could take a holiday so he would ask and then come out to Brandon for three weeks in the summer to see his mom, aunt, sister and four brothers. He did that for quite a few years until his mom passed away. His last trip was probably in 1970."

Turk Broda died of a heart attack on October 17th 1972 at the age of 58. He passed just two weeks before the death of his longtime netminding rival Bill Durnan. "He had a massive heart attack at our home and passed away soon after," said Barbara. "When it was all over with, I talked with his doctor and apparently he had the veins of an 85 year old person and he said it was from the adrenaline and stress of playing and coaching hockey for so long."

Despite Broda being retired for 65 years, he still remains atop Toronto's all-time regular-season goaltending lists in games played (629), wins (302), shutouts (62) and minutes played (38,167). During the 2016-17 season, the Toronto Maple Leafs honoured Broda by having his #1 retired to the rafters of the Air Canada Centre.

"He never blamed the forwards or defensemen when he gave up a goal," recalled teammate Harry Watson. "It was always his fault." Watson once accidentally shot the puck past Broda and Turk told him, "Don't worry about it, Harry. I should have stopped that shot."
 

Michael Farkas

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Yup, yup...I got it. Lint in a hurricane...lots of golf...massive heart attack. It's all there. Now...if only that had some bearing on comparing him to other goalies in history, namely the ones that are up in this round...

Also, for someone who - quite ironically - called me out for posting a "novel" in a previous thread...surely...

Nevermind haha

Posting my chapter on Broda again for those that missed it. Surely, there's some points here that can be expanded on:
Can they...? That would really turnaround my Friday if that were the case...
 
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MXD

Partying Hard
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Sure...we wouldn't want to call out a season like 2013...just like we don't want to call out Benedict for being the worst goalie in 1918, or Gardiner being the worst in 1928 and 1929. We know stats can be tricky little devils sometimes...

That's the thing : Gardiner had bad numbers in 1929. He wasn't bad, he just had bad numbers because he was playing for a terrible team.

Carey Price's 2013 numbers took a nosedive a little past midway in the season because he played injured, which meant numbers that were worse than they should've been and a significantly likelier playoff exit. He wasn't playing for an awful or terrible or bad team by any stretch, though he did make the Habs look better than they actually were when he was at his best. As usual, basically.

The way I'm looking at this is : I can say Price, at 100%, was the best netminder in the league in 2013. But his 100% didn't happen because reasons.

The way I'm NOT looking at this is : Carey Price was crap and/or inconsistent before 2013-2014.
 
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jigglysquishy

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Playing behind an offensive team means you don't have the stress of giving away one or two goals because your team can reliably outscore the other (if it's good enough to win the Cup I mean). All things told, goalies on defensive-minded teams are probably more integral to their teams success. It doesn't make them necessarily better.
It's a good point and a big hangup I have on Smith.

They were tremendous offensively. Second in GF in the era behind the run and gun Gretzky Oilers. They were the best defensive team in the era.

Out of all the dynasties in play he played on the best team. Deep forward lines filled with defensively responsible players. Best defenseman on the table, though defensive depth wasn't great. Always well rested and shared starting duties.

In terms of who had the easiest time, it's hard for me to look at anyone but Smith.
 

MXD

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Sure...we wouldn't want to call out a season like 2013...just like we don't want to call out Benedict for being the worst goalie in 1918, or Gardiner being the worst in 1928 and 1929. We know stats can be tricky little devils sometimes...

And sure, you watched him play hundreds of times...but...we don't really want that either, it doesn't seem.

What if...and this is just a hypothetical, of course...we took a panel of hockey men and asked them who the best goalie was, ya know, contemporary opinion...and they all said "clearly Carey Price" for a remarkable length of time, despite maybe only playing at 75% or having a team made up of spare parts or whatever...

Boy, that seems to work sometimes...doesn't look like it's gonna consistently work though...I wonder... *straightens dunce cap*
The thing with this logic is -- it would bring us to rank the likes of Kovalev amongst the 100 best skaters of all-time, or Lindros like the... 18th or something.
 

Vilica

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I've never really seen the case for Worters. His stats benefit from playing in a really low scoring era, and in a league where 60-75% of the teams made the playoffs, managed to miss the playoffs more times (7) than he made it (5). The years where his goals against were at the top of the league correlate to a severe lack of goal scoring for his teams, ie concentrating on defense at the expense of offense, which doesn't say much for the ability of Worters to erase mistakes. His playoff record is non-existent, just 11 games with nary a Finals appearance. He had 2 great years and spent the other 10 years as a basically league-average starter for a below-average team. He shares that distinction with another Hart-winning goaltender in Theodore.

His contemporary, Tiny Thompson, is a different case, because his Vezina/Jennings winning years were not correlated with no offense. He spent the majority of his career on good Boston teams, but had a horrific playoff W/L record. Outside his rookie Cup year, he had a 1.89 GAA in 2000 playoff minutes in 28 games, yet went 10-18 in those games. For a team that over those 7 playoff runs had finished 1st 4 times, 2nd twice, and 3rd once in the regular season, that sort of underperformance has to reflect negatively on Thompson somewhat. [And also, how random 3-5 game series can be, especially with the playoff system of the time.]

I struggle a bit with Carey Price... on one hand you have the contemporary voting, on the other hand you have just the one peak year. When looking back at his career, he actually has more minutes played than I thought he did. That's definitely a point in his favor. One hypothetical I would like to re-litigate is the 2014 Olympic Gold Medal game against Sweden, because Canada gets credit for beating a Sweden team that had its best center ripped unlawfully from its lineup right before the game, as well as injuries to 2 other centers (Sedin and Zetterberg). The center lineup left for Sweden was a joke. If we could have that Canada team play against a healthy Sweden team in a best of 7 series simulation, I wonder how close it would be.

Luongo's probably my #1 vote, despite the lack of a signature season. He just had so many years as an above-average full-time starter. He has basically 20000 more minutes played than any other person on the ballot, or the equivalent of 5 full seasons. Also, his defensive support during his Vezina-level seasons is replete with no-name guys. If I'm reading my rosters correctly, the highest Norris finish any defenseman who played with Luongo that year is Christian Ehrhoff's 8th place in 10-11, he never had a defenseman receive a 1st place Norris vote (he had 2 2nds, 2 3rds, 14 4ths, and 29 5ths total). His similar wipe-out in All-Star voting was ruined by a single 1st place vote for Aaron Ekblad in his rookie year of 14-15. [Fun fact, the Norris support Andrei Markov received in Price's rookie year to finish 6th is more total votes than Luongo's entire career, 50 to 47.]
 

VanIslander

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Counting cups does not indicate goalie greatness.

Was Plante more important to the Habs dynasty than Broda to Toronto's? And by how much?
 
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VanIslander

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A question remains: How the heck do you explain the Czechoslovakian thrice championships over mighty Soviet squads who kicked NHL *** on tours?

... Holecek.
 
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