HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 2

[Dr John Carlson]

Now, I hate to say it...if there was ever a round to extend a week...it might be this one haha - but I won't campaign for that because it really sets a trend.

I'd definitely support keeping this going for a week if it allows for greater discussion of the goalies available this round. I don't think we should be in any rush with this project.

As someone only reading and not trying to get in the way, I really like these discussions and would love to see them extended.

We've got a good chunk of votes already, so we're going to go ahead with things as scheduled. I imagine there'll be lots of opportunity to carry this discussion into next week, though. Without looking at the votes we've gotten so far, I imagine the goalies at the centre of this sort of philosophical discussion are going to be very polarizing, and since there's a chance (because we inducted 6 last round) that we only induct 4 this round, there may be some carryover.

But we'll let the voting results make the call on that.

Can someone sell me on Durnan? He couldn't push Paul Bibeault out of a job.

That's certainly one way to characterize it... but it's pretty clear that after 1941, Durnan's talent was the last thing keeping him from playing in the NHL. Since Paul Bibeault was 'lucky' enough to play on a team whose season ended prematurely, the Habs picked him up instead of Durnan, who was actually still playing. I wouldn't read any deeper into it than that.

And, you could argue Durnan did push him out of a job, because the Habs didn't shed a tear when they replaced Bibeault with Big Bill in 1943.

Both Brimsek and Broda were good enough to be elite NHLers before the war depletes rosters. Durnan was good enough to crack a roster in 1941, but I don't think he's at the level of B and B yet.

1941 was his best senior season, easily IMO. If he was only good enough to 'crack' a roster after this season, then what do we do with him when he actually did win the starting role in 1943? He was coming off of two middling seasons according to QSHL all-star voters. Did he just suddenly become great over the 1943 offseason?

Also, I don't think Broda was even at that level in 1941. Brimsek was the guy over the first half of the 40s. Broda didn't start getting that type of recognition until the Leafs became a dynasty in 1946, after Broda had turned 32, after he'd spent 7 full seasons in the league. Unlike Brimsek and Durnan, who were seen as the guys from start to finish.

 

[Weatherfield]

The idea of era bunching is the most salient point. Perhaps the way to disband it is to find parallels for goalies across eras. For example, when I read of the intelligent demeanor and calm play of Vezina, my mind links him with Plante. A pair of great but flawed goaltenders like Dryden and Durnan seem a match. Brimsek seems really excellent, a goalie's goalie, in a sphere with Kiprusoff, Lundqvist, Price...

???

 

[seventieslord]

Broda/Durnan is one I want to get into. Can someone sell me on Durnan? He couldn't push Paul Bibeault out of a job. He dominates a war-depleted NHL. And he retires at 34. I'm just left wanting more.

I wonder if it can still be found or if it's in the dreaded "hfboards search dead zone". But a while back i posted a fairly simplistic season-by-season comparison of the best seasons posted by both Bill Durnan and Tony Esposito. And I found Esposito's best seasons (ranks in voting and who he was up against) to be decidedly better. True, Esposito had twice as many kicks at the can, but that's not exactly a bad thing, either...

 

[nabby12]

The idea of era bunching is the most salient point. Perhaps the way to disband it is to find parallels for goalies across eras. For example, when I read of the intelligent demeanor and calm play of Vezina, my mind links him with Plante. A pair of great but flawed goaltenders like Dryden and Durnan seem a match. Brimsek seems really excellent, a goalie's goalie, in a sphere with Kiprusoff, Lundqvist, Price...

???

Long time lurker, first time poster? Welcome!

 

[Weatherfield]

Long time lurker, first time poster? Welcome!

Aw, shucks...

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I'm just going to dump some more info here from my notes that I picked up over time...

Frank Brimsek

Here's a funny column from Andy Lytle, the very colourful editor of the Toronto Star around this time. It's a conversation between him, the affable and quotable Dick Irvin, and Eddie Shore. I'm undecided on how much of this is legit and how much is tongue-in-cheek... I'm guessing the conversation really happened and some artistic license was injected... but I'll leave it for the group to decide:

Dick Irvin and I sat in the lobby and listened to our arteries hardening. We had been there a spell and were about to toddle off for a cup of java when Eddie Shore bustled in, checked his grips and was about to follow them up with Irvin called him.

It was after midnight then an nearly three in the [morning] before Dick and Eddie stopped cutting up old hockey touches.

Dick began by wondering what it was that held the Bruins up. They always played defensive hockey, he claimed, and yet they were the toughest nuts Leafs had to crack year after year.

This assertion roused the great Shore. He said Leafs had no defence, hadn't had a good one for years, and were held up only because each front line was carefully selected for its terrific back-checking propensities.

Dick reminded Shore that until two years ago Bruins didn't play the defensive game so stoutly. He remembered, he said, slyly, when they were the great roaring gunners led by the incomparable Eddie.

'Okay,' agreed Shore, falling beautifully, 'and don't you know why that was changed? I'll tell you. We had to make a new goalkeeper look good. I wasn't allowed to leave my protective position. If I rushed it meant a fine.'

'You had to make Brimsek look good after the dismissal of Tiny [Thompson], eh?' prodded Dick.

'Call it what you like,' said Shore, 'that was the order. They're still protecting him. Brimsek, in my opinion, isn't as good a goalkeeper as Broda.'

'Cripes, Eddie,' Dick exclaimed rapturously, 'you're blowing the stuffing out of Ross' selection of Brimsek as the greatest goalie ever.'

'Can't help it,' snapped Eddie. 'That's my considered opinion. What the hell are you writing on that newspaper, Andy?'

'Some thoughts about the game we just saw,' said I.

'Oh,' Eddie seemed relieved. 'I'm not talking for publication, you know.'

Shore wouldn't admit to Irvin that we had any high class material in our hockey club barring Apps, Drillon, and Davidson. His summary of Broda pleasantly surprised Dick.

'I thought he was good,' said Dick, 'but I didn't rate him higher than Brimsek.'

'Put Broda behind the Bruins' defense and you couldn't get a puck past him.' Eddie saluted. 'Look how well he does now, with no defence.'

Frankie Brimsek is the Bruins' new weather vane... They used to say, 'as Shore goes, so go the Bruins'... Now it's 'as Brimsek goes, etc'...

Incidentally, speaking of Brimsek brings to mind that he is probably the least spectacular of all the National League goalies in action today. And therein lies a tale. When the Boston puck tender was trying to break into organized hockey the craze for spectacular goalies was at its peak. The result was that Frankie for some time went here and there about the land trying to hook up with a good amateur team without success. Not only was his style against him but there was the fact that he was an American and in those days hard-boiled managers just didn't believe that there could be such a thing as an American-born goalie who would be worth his salt.

...

Brimsek has given substantial and convincing encouragement to all young goalies by showing that it is possible for a rookie net-minder to step into stardom practically overnight. But the answer is, of course, that Frankie had what it takes – a remarkable pair of hands and the knack of handling his stick like a good defensive centre. From the night he first donned the uniform of the Bruins he could pick off a shot with the ease and nonchalance of a first baseman spearing a throw. That simile is appropriate because Brimsek plays a lot of baseball in his native Minnesota during the summer months.

In fact to this observer's way of thinking, it is Brimsek's uncanny deftness with his hands which makes him the superior of any other goalie in the game today. There is no rebound from any shot he catches – and he makes nearly 50 percent of his saves that way – and when there is no rebound there is no necessity for a goalie going to the ice.

When a goalie is down he is easy prey. It may be more spectacular as far as the customers are concerned. But Brimsek's record if proof that his way is much the best in this day and age when a goodily portion of all goals are scored on rebounds.

We mentioned Irvin's not exactly-unique opinion about Brimsek and Broda [being the two best goalies in the NHL] to another astute hockey man, who replied, 'Dick could have gone a lot further than that, but he probably didn't think it diplomatic to do so. But I'll say it: Broda and Brimsek are the only two genuine major-league goalers in the NHL today. Just look over the list yourself and see. Yes, all the others are pretty good men, some of them in time may develop into great goalkeepers. But right now none of them rightly belongs in the league, taking Brimsek and Broda as the standards.

'The others are young and learning; they haven't the class. I think this Charlie Rayner, of Americans, is going to be a top-notch goaler ultimately. And maybe Sugar Henry, or Rangers too...

'Johnny Mowers? He's just another goaler. Good but not great. Last season, I think he played over his head; that's all.'

I wish the above quote didn't reference an anonymous 'hockey man', but it's another opinion that goaltending depth in the 40s was bad.

However, of Brimsek we can say this. He is the fastest and surest goalie with his hands we have ever seen. Until Frankie came along we had always conceded that honor to Tiny Thompson, who was in his heyday as predecessor to Brimsek with the Bruins but had passed his peak when he came to the Detroit Red Wings.

Further, it can be said of Brimsek that he is the coolest individual we have ever seen under fire. It is not for nothing that enemy players swear that ice water instead of blood courses through the veins of the Minnesota Icicle. We have yet to see him fakes into making the first move in any man-to-man duel with a puck carrier. We can't say the same for any other goalie we have ever watched.

Brimsek is also a master at the art of permitting a minimum of rebounds. It is uncanny how he can block a shot with his padded stomach or legs and smother the rebound with his hands and flick it out of danger. As a result of his ability in this respect, the Boston puck-fending wizard goes down less than any other goalie in hockey today.

Bill Tobin, president of the Chicago Black Hawks, said today he paid the Boston Bruins $25,000 for goalie Frank Brimsek.

'Along with his salary that makes Brimsek a pretty expensive player,' said Tobin as his National Hockey League team checked into training camp here.

Tobin said he thought the 33-year-old netminder had about three years good hockey left and 'he will steady our team greatly.'

Observers who have seen Chicago in action report Frankie Brimsek looks shaky in the Hawks net... 'He's fighting the puck,' said one. 'He has no defense in front of him. Ottawa should have beaten the Hawks, that's how bad they looked...' Bruins had commented on that point too... They felt that the high-strung Brimmie might 'blow sky high' with the Chicago defenseman either backing in on him or racing up the ice leaving him unprotected.

Turk Broda

Bill [Cowley] rode Johnny Mowers off the rail to win the Vezina Trophy for Broda, not so long ago the ugly duckling of the Leafs, who used to duck the odd puck on occasion with very disastrous results.

The Turk will receive a one thousand dollar bonus for winning the trophy. He may also make the all-star team, which proves something or other...

Broda won this trophy behind a team which does not stress defence as much, for instance, as Boston or Detroit. It is a little more defensive club than it used to be, but the sight of a Toronto goalie having the least goals scored on him is not likely to happen again for a while...

Broda, for years, looked like unfinished business in the nets. He was an unfashionable performer though what is technically known as a good stopper....”

But about two years ago Broda started to show more polish, even finesse at times. He started to cut off angles. He produced some notable shutouts. His progress has been steady from there on.

There are times when he has all the grace of a camel going up an escalator, but for the most part he is a shifty fellow who leaves little to chance or his clearing house companions in front of him.

His defence still plays loose Leaf hockey. His attack often fails to back check. They leave the Turk to his own devices which must be very good most of the time.

Charlie Gardiner

Trials and tribulations of hockey's goaltenders have lately been subject of a survey by Clem Loughlin, coach of Chicago Black Hawks, and today the veteran pilot came up with results of his probing. He thinks the National League's system of selecting its 'goalie of the year' is all wrong.

...

'I think the league's top goalie should be decided by a poll of hockey experts,' said Loughlin today. 'The trophy should go to the goalie who has been most valuable to his team – not to the one who has been fortunate enough to get the best protection.

'Of course, there are lots of times when the winner is actually the best goaltender in the league. I think the late Chuck Gardiner earned the trophy both times he got it.

Charles E. Parker, New York baseball writer who is following the Brooklyn Dodgers in spring camp, asked Eddie Froelich, the Dodger trainer, the other day what sport was hardest on the athlete. Froelich is in a position to know for, besides training the Dodgers, he handles the Chicago Black Hawks during their NHL schedule, and has had similar experience with both the Chicago Cardinals pro eleven and the Northwestern University team.

... Of the stars he has trained, Froelich considers two that have passed from this lift the greatest and both were hockey players, Chuck Gardiner, the Chicago goaltender, and Howie Morenz.

'... Six stitches were closing a wound over one eye, four stitches were doing the same for a wound over the other eye, and ten stitches held together a wound on [Gardiner's] scalp, all suffered within three days of the final battle with the Boston Bruins. But he had the wounds covered and wore a football helmet for additional protection and went out and held the Bruins scoreless to give the Black Hawks the championship.'

[Lionel Conacher], making one of his periodic business visits to Montreal (he left again for Ottawa last night) recalled that the secret of [Roy] Worters' success was that he had to stop a play only once; he rarely permitted a rebound out in front and seldom if ever were they pileups and scrambles in front of him... But comparing Gardiner with Worters, the Big Train said: 'Gardiner was just as quick of eye, just as fast in his movements as Worters; Gardiner, too, was an expert goaltending technician. But Gardiner would have to stop the puck maybe two and three times on the same play. He was wonderful saving rebounds, I'll admit. But Worters was a better craftsman because he had to stop a play only once. There were no rebounds off him.'

One of the things that impresses [Earl Seibert] is the visible improvement in the goalies since he broke into the league. He thought Chuck Gardiner was in a class by himself once, but he doesn't think Chuck would be a standout if he were in the league today. He thinks the goalies are all smart now and that they've all learned to play the angles.

Dick Irvin has a theory that some goalies hurt themselves by not keeping in condition like their teammates. He points out that Chuck Gardiner, one of the all-time greats in the position, did a lot of skating in practice to make sure he wouldn't get out of condition.

And one more that speaks on the differences between 'then' and 'now':

A goal-tender has the toughest job in hockey today. It used to be the average life of the boys who wore the pads was much longer than that of either a forward or a defenceman. But such isn't the case anymore. For example, just take a peek at the goalies performing in the National League today. With the exception of Frankie Brimsek of the Boston Bruins and Turk Broda, pudgy defender of the Toronto Maple Leaf fortress, not one of the current crop of seven has been in the league for as long as two years...

Some observers believe that styles as well as personnel have changed in the goal-tending profession. Perhaps it is a busier job than it used to be before the game was speeded [sic] up to such an appreciable extent. But certainly the main idea remains what it always has been – to keep the disc out of the nets – and that is being done with only sight apparanet variation in style. At least in recent years.

Of course there was a time back years ago – when the great Georges Vezina was in his heyday with the Montreal Canadiens – when stand-up goalies were in style. Vezina was noted for his nonchalance. He very, very seldom went to the ice to smother a shot.

But that was quite a long time ago. A change to the present style came into popularity with the advent of fellows like John Ross Roach, Roy Worters and the late Chuck Gardiner. They hopped around like puppets on a string and the crowd loved it. Most of our goalies still play that way today – and even more so as the game speeds up from year to year.

Undoubtedly this is the big reason why our modern goalies don't last as long as they used to. They have more work to do. They have to be acrobats. They run greater risk of injury.

 

[overpass]

I'm just going to dump some more info here from my notes that I picked up over time...


Turk Broda

That 1941 Gazette article about loose Leaf hockey (heh) was out of date. Leafs played offensive hockey under Dick Irvin but it was no coincidence that Broda won the Vezina in Hap Day's first season as coach.

There will likely be opportunity to discuss this next week, so I won't get into it now, but I think much of the difference between Broda and Durnan in the playoffs was due to their coaches. Hap Day was a far more effective defensive coach than Dick Irvin.

 

[Michael Farkas]

We've got a good chunk of votes already

Barring some people maybe being away for three days, this is a little disappointing to hear for a number of reasons. But alas...I am very fine with just one week, I support that decision.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Barring some people maybe being away for three days, this is a little disappointing to hear for a number of reasons. But alas...I am very fine with just one week, I support that decision.

People can change their votes if they vote early and then change their mind. We don't really want to encourage it too much because it could get a bit messy keeping track of things, but it's not off limits, and some people did so last week.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Thanks for these!

An attempt at systemizing the information posted so far:

GOALTENDERS

Riley Hern (*1878):

• Bill O'Brien (1941): old hockey all-star team

Percy LeSueur (*1881):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): second all-time ("as good as Vezina, but didn't wear as well")
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1938): all-time all-star goaltender
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1942): best goaltender
• Fred 'Cyclone' Taylor (1946/1947): all-time all-star team

Harry 'Dutchy' Morrison (*1882):

• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Morrison or Charlie Gardiner would make the all-time all-star team

Hugh Lehman (*1885):

• Si Griffis (1938): all-time all-star team
• Lester? Patrick (1938): all-time all-star team

Georges Vézina (*1887):

• Various sports writers/Charlie Good (1924/1925): all-time all-star team ("for year in and year out consistency")
• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'oldtimers' all-star team ("was a wonder in the nets")
• Jack Adams (1938): all-time all-star team
• Charles Querrie (1938): all-time all-star team
• Sprague Cleghorn (1941): "best goaltender"
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'oldtimers' all-star team
• Alf Smith (1943/1944): "greatest goalie of his time"
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): 1910-20 all-star team and all-time all-star team
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being George Hainsworth)
• Frank Selke (1948/1949): 1900-1926 all-star team

Hap Holmes (*1888):

• Duke Keats (1942/1943): all-time all-star team

Clint Benedict (*1892):

• Bill O'Brien (1941): modern hockey all-star team
• Leo Dandurand (1941/1942): best goaltender ever
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): 1920-30 all-star team
• Tommy Gorman (1947/1948): all-time all-star team

George Hainsworth (*1895):

• Aurèle Joliat (1936/1937): 'recent times' all-star team ("outstanding in goal")
• Bill Cook (1937/1938): all-time all-star team
• Mickey Ion (1943/1944): one of two goalies on the 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being Tiny Thompson)
  
• Newsy Lalonde (1947/1948): all-time all-star team ("even ahead of Vezina, on his record alone")
• Aurèle Joliat (1948/1949): one of the two best goaltenders Joliat had played with or against (the other being Georges Vézina)
• Bill Cook (1951/1952): all-time all-star team

Alec Connell (*1900):

• Tommy Gorman (1941): the best goaltender Gorman ever saw

Roy Worters (*1900):

• Lionel Conacher (1941): "the greatest goalie who ever played"
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 third all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson and Charlie Gardiner)

Alec Connell (*1901):

• Conn Smythe (1938): all-time all-star team

Tiny Thompson (*1903):

• Red Dutton (1938/1939): all-time all-star team
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): first all-star team among players Goodfellow had played against (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 all-star team (ahead of Charlie Gardiner)
  
• Mickey Ion (1943/44): one of the two goalies 1930-1940 all-star team (the other being George Hainsworth)

Charlie Gardiner (*1904):

• Hap Holmes (1937/1938): all-time all-star team ("moved so that he was in front of practically every shot")
• Tommy Gorman (1938): all-time all-star team
• Ebbie Goodfellow (1941/1942): second all-star team among player Goodfellow had played against (behind Tiny Thompson)
• Cooper Smeaton (1942/1943): 'modern' all-star team
• Jim Hendy (1942/1943): 1930-1940 second all-star team (behind Tiny Thompson)
• L.F. Earl (1943/1944): either Gardiner or Dutchy Morrison would make the all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1947/1948): all-time all-star team
• Frank Boucher (1949/1950): all-time all-star team ("probably the greatest goaltender of them all")
• Dick Beddoes (1961): all-time all-star team

Frank Brimsek (*1915):

• Art Ross (1939/1940): best goaltender of all times

I think this is relevant, especially as we talk of contemporary opinion.

Vezina and Gardiner stand out majorly. A few other names not up yet due too.

I'm surprised how little Brimsek does. Art Ross loved him and spoke widely about Brimsek's greatness.

Anyone want to make the argument for Brimsek being last for the 40s goalies?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Lynn Patrick greatly changes his tune on goalies by 1964.

From The Ottawa Journal - Jan 21, 1964:
Lynn Patrick was asked to "rate the goalies in order of choice over a span of 25 years"

1. Frank Brimsek - "Cool, agile, and with about as good a pair of hands as anybody you can remember, had few flaws in his armor", also admitted that he had trouble scoring on him which may have influenced this.

2. Terry Sawchuk - Despite the situation with him being "one of the sourest experiences of his hockey career."

3. Jacques Plante
4. Glenn Hall
5. Bill Durnan - "Now there was a man with a pair of hands along the Brimsek style when he needed to use them, which was quite often."
6. Chuck Rayer
7. Tiny Thompson
8. Turk Broda
9. Sugar Jim Henry

This and a few others on the same page rank Durnan highly.

One thing that stuck out to me throughout all the 50s/60s responses is that Broda is almost always last of the 40s trio.

Based on contemporary opinion, isn't Broda a clear third? I have longevity goggles on but I want to recognize that during their primes Broda just wasn't seen at the same level.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I thinka coach's impact on defensive systems can't be understated. We will talk a lot about it when we get to modern goalies.

The three 40s goalies all had their primes overlap with a coach.

Broda-Day
Brimsek-Ross
Durnan-Irvin

If we are purely talking about a coach's defensive reputation doesn't Hap Day stand out? He ran a tight defensive system.

I'm trying to gauge how much help the goalies got.

On a related note, prime on prime, is Ted Kennedy the best defensive player any of them played with?

Brimsek had old man Shore and Clapper. Durnan finished with very young Harvey. But Broda and the dynasty overlap with Kennedy's prime.