HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 2

[Michael Farkas]

From the first link I posted above, some information I hadn't seen before about Durnan's other sporting exploits. Softball stats and a soccer star. A multisport athlete like Charlie Gardiner.

The numbers of the late Bill Durnan are practically off the charts.

Fifteen strikeouts per game for 25 consecutive years on a fast-pitch diamond as one of Canada’s finest softball pitchers ever. Fourteen no-hitters, officially, but surely many more than that. Two world championship victories playing on teams out of Toronto, his hometown. Lifetime batting average of .350.

On the soccer pitch, as a young and powerful halfback, Durnan was scouted by two English First Division teams, offered contracts by each.

Hockey News 1996:
«Durnan a ete indiscutablement Pun des plus fameux gardiens dans 1’histoire de la Ligue nationale,» ecrivit Jacques Beauchamp dans Montreal-Matin. 11 est Pun de ceux qui m’ont le plus impressionne. Je le place derriere Jacques Plante et devant Terry Sawchuk, Frank Brimsek et «Turk» Broda…»

Beauchamp rappelait a quel point Bill Duman avait aussi ete un brillant lanceur: «C’etait un vrai Sandy Koufax… certes le meilleur lanceur de fastball au Canada. Non seulement il etait un grand athlete, mais aussi un gentilhomme dans toute 1’acception du mot.»

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not just bad skaters and poor stickhandlers were stuck back in net in the past, but just the smallest guys that couldn't hack it at other positions suggested by a 1947 Hockey News

...it used to be pretty much an accepted fact that goaltenders were small men. Big goalies were regarded as something akin to sideshow freaks.

Just why this should have been so is difficult to trace down. One common explanation was that the smaller kids found that they couldn’t hold their own on the ice in other positions. They’d get bumped all over the place if they at-tempted to play centre or on the wing. And very few little men have made good at defence posts.

That left only one place for hockey-loving mites to go-between the pipes. As a result, if we can take the above explanation as the truth, such little guys as Alex Connell, John Roes Roach, Roy Worters, Normie Smith, Wilfie Cude, the late Charlie Gardiner, George Hainsworth and a score of others found themselves occupying the net custodian position.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sorry to post a goalie not eligible this round, but I'm sure I'm one of the last to vote. To bring it home, Lumley does name Brimsek and Durnan the two best goalies in the game.

But @Doctor No maybe this can be added to your "Did You Know?" pile or is at least a lead towards one...

Harry Lumley is one of the most penalized goaltenders in hockey. Last season he spent 12 minutes in the pokey by courtesy of a teammate), the season before 10 minutes and thus far this season 4 minutes. The new rule pertaining to the goal crease ought to cut this down though. If a player gets inside the crease the goalie can push im out without any injury to his reputation. “And don’t think I won’t do it.” says Harry.

Although it isn’t commonly known Harry has scored a goal. It was last season during an exhibition game. The opposition yanked their goalie in an attempt to tie the score, but when the puck was dropped the Wings got the draw. A teammate gave him a forward stick and the puck. He went in all alone and scored.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Frank Brimsek (*1915):

• Art Ross (1939/1940): best goaltender of all times

From a page 8 quote about best evers...

Art Ross changed his tune in 1950. Art Ross is yet another who doesn't believe goalies of the modern game should be compared to the previous generation too.

“He’s the best of the modem age,” declared Ross, “and while you can’t compare the old game with the present one, it may be that he’s the greatest of them all. The more I see of Durnan, the greater he gets. He can do everything and he’s at the very peak of his game despite his age.”

Better than Frankie Brimsek, long No. 1 in Uncle Arthur’s rating of goalies?

“Yes, and that’s not sour grapes, either,” replied the man who came up with Tiny Thompson, Brimsek and now Jack Gelineau. “During the war years, some people thought Bill wasn’t as great as he showed, but he’s going against the best in the game now and he’s better than ever.

“Hughie Lehman and Georges Vezina were the greats of the old stand-up era and so were Clint Benedict, Tiny. Brimmy and Charlie Gardiner. It’s hard to tell how Lehman and Vezina would have gone in the modern game. But they were great in that age of hockey.”

...

Ross himself is amazed at Durnan’s ability to play his greatest hockey at his age, considering the wear and tear that plagues goalies since the red line came into hockey.

Ross also confirmed (if there was any doubt) that empty net goals were counted against the Vezina Trophy race for goalies. We'll probably never know, but I wonder if anyone lost out on the Vezina and its bonus based on empty netters...

 

[Michael Farkas]

In 1964, the HHOF committee was instructed to find players to induct up to 1939. They only agreed on one Babe Siebert.

THN Jul 1 1964 -
Under the regulations, the selection committee was at first empowered to choose only players up to 1939 but Siebert was the only one approved among several nominations. Durnan, Stewart and Bentley were picked from the 1939-45 period.

Honorable mention among players went to Harry Oliver, Marty Barry. Red Horner, Hugh Aird, Pit Lepine and Alex Irvin.

##

Interesting insight about guys who just missed the cut. This means that a committee specifically asked to find players to induct from before 1939 explicitly passed on and didn't get close on Worters or Benedict or Holmes, among others.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Dick's brother Alex? Huh. I never would've guessed. I know he was a real 'hockey man' in Manitoba for a long time, but still...

 

[Hockey Stathead]

Ross also confirmed (if there was any doubt) that empty net goals were counted against the Vezina Trophy race for goalies. We'll probably never know, but I wonder if anyone lost out on the Vezina and its bonus based on empty netters...

1964-1965:

-Maple Leafs goals against = 173 (0 empty netters)

-Red Wings goals against = 175 (3 empty netters, 2 scored by the Maple Leafs)

Roger Crozier lost the Vezina to Johnny Bower and Terry Sawchuk due to empty netters.

 

[rmartin65]

Yet another strike against pre-forward pass goalies...

I'm going to quote the second again, but change the bold (which I assume you added)-

"There are more good goalies today than ever before," said Les. "They outclass the old timers because they have more chance to play, the modern rules favor them and they have better equipment."

Here we have a prime example of why we take era into account and not just who stopped pucks the best- Patrick gives three reasons why the newer goalies outclass the older ones, and they are all era related reasons- more practice, more favorable rules, and better equipment. Those are very much era-dependent causes.

Later goalies may have been "better" goalies, but that doesn't mean they were "greater".

Not just bad skaters and poor stickhandlers were stuck back in net in the past, but just the smallest guys that couldn't hack it at other positions suggested by a 1947 Hockey News

This seems like working from a conclusion and working backwards- plenty of the really early guys were large. Billy Nicholson, who played before the Vezina time period (and actually overlapped) was reportedly up to 270 lbs. Paddy Moran was 5'11". Those are big men for that time period.

And again- we really think all the hockey leftovers just ended up in goal for... how many years? That the position was the Vincent Benedict, while the skaters were the Julius Benedict (from Twins)? I don't know, it seems were that nobody would realize that having the best players possible at each position mattered.

In 1964, the HHOF committee was instructed to find players to induct up to 1939. They only agreed on one Babe Siebert.

THN Jul 1 1964 -
Under the regulations, the selection committee was at first empowered to choose only players up to 1939 but Siebert was the only one approved among several nominations. Durnan, Stewart and Bentley were picked from the 1939-45 period.

Honorable mention among players went to Harry Oliver, Marty Barry. Red Horner, Hugh Aird, Pit Lepine and Alex Irvin.

##

Interesting insight about guys who just missed the cut. This means that a committee specifically asked to find players to induct from before 1939 explicitly passed on and didn't get close on Worters or Benedict or Holmes, among others.

How many of those on the committee would have been able to watch the pre-1939 players? What were the potential biases of the committee in terms of prior positions, teams affiliated with, etc? Were there any personal issues?

Without more fidelity into those questions, I don't know how seriously we should take the results of that committee. And, again- it is the Hall of Fame, who has not always been known to make the best decisions.

 

[Michael Farkas]

For the record, the "conclusion" - as it were - would not have been made possible without film. I'd have been none the wiser and never thought this otherwise. As I saw it unfold, then the pieces started to fall into place. It's certainly logical. Billy Nicholson being a tub of **** notwithstanding haha

Re: "Hockey leftovers", it appears this trend started to fall away with liberalized passing. And then "leftovers" were the clear exception after WWII. Of course, there's exceptions on the other side (Gump, Thomas, etc.) but there are exceptions to everything. The origin stories of these goalies and the coaches/managers who picked them reads like the bottom of the Statue of Liberty though, that's quite clear.

Barring a substantial turnover in 1960, it seems quite certain that these people say pre-1939 players. I doubt much "research" was done for these selections. I imagine that if the committee was tasked with pre-1939 players it's because they knew or were pre-1939 players...