HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 11

[seventieslord]

This just in, team that scores a lot of goals scores a lot of goals.

 

[Professor What]

Not trying to be critical (especially since I haven't posted as much this week), but I'm not finding most of the Giacomin discussion helpful. Why are we comparing him to Hall, Sawchuk, and Parent. We have them all on the list ages ago and he's not remotely competing against them. I'm more interested in how he compares to the other guys on the list now.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Back when TV had three networks, NYers ran air time. The video i linked two posts above this atests to his reverence. It wasn't until the later part of the 80's (the Beezer!) that Ed's popularity waned. He had no statistical case to be weekend at bernie's.

Likewise, Dave Krieg and Steve Largent were HUGE in America's #1 sport, but are ignored nowadays. Counting cups and crunching stats and the multimedia age have made the 6 o'clock and 11 o'clock news superfluous.

This is an odd comparison, since a lot of Giacomin's popularity was because he was in New York, and a lot of Krieg and Largent's anonymity was because they played in Seattle.

(I was at greater than 50% of those home games between 1983 and 1988, and I agree to the point that I'd be inclined to include Steve Largent over Ed Giacomin if I had a vote this round.)

 

[blogofmike]

April 8, 1969, Dink Carroll

Gump Worsley, who is a pretty good money player, was steadier than Eddie Giacomin. The latter played 70 games for the Rangers and may have been tired going into the series. But the Rangers had been in a tough battle for third place right up to the end of the schedule and Manager-Coach Emile Francis kept him in there. The third game of the series - the first in New York - was a bad one for Giacomin and he was replaced by Gilles Villemure in the fourth one.

March 24, 1970 - Jack Cook

At the other end of the goaltending ladder in New York Rangers, where Ed Giacomin, and therefore his mates, are having all kinds of grief. Giacomin, great from October to March, has never been known as a playoff goaltender. This year the playoff pressure came early and Giacomin, and the Rangers, have faded hand-in-hand.

April 10, 1970, Jack Cook

The Boston club has awesome scoring power, but few expected them to leave Ranger goaltender Ed Giacomin in a state of shock. Giacomin, whose playoff credentials have always been suspect, couldn't even last a full game.

The following season Giacomin gets his first good playoff moment from Hockey Stars of 1972 via @Michael Farkas in the last project

Ed Giacomin - One of the more fashionable pastimes for hockey journalists was predicting when New York Rangers' goalie Ed Giacomin would crack under the strain of playing nearly every game of the long NHL season - without a face mask.

During the 1967 playoffs Giacomin folded before the big Montreal Canadiens' guns in four straight games. A year later he blew a long shot from the stick of a fourth-rate Chicago forward and the Rangers capitulated to the Black Hawks after leading the Cup series two games to none. The Italian-Canadian from Sudbury, Ontario was hardly more effective in 1969 and 1970 when the Rangers were dispatched from the first Cup round by Montreal and Boston.

No change was expected during the 1970-71 season until New York's general manager-coach Emile Francis came up with a new plan. Instead of having Giacomin play 70 games, as he did in each of the two previous years, Francis limited Eddie to 45 contests and permitted his other goaltender, Gilles Villemure, to play the reminder. In addition, Giacomin wore a mask.

The plan was successful. Giacomin's goals against average was a personal low of 2.15 while Villemure's was a commendable 2.29. Their total - 2.26 - enabled the Ranger pair to capture the Vezina Trophy, awarded to the team with the best goaltending record. Besides, Giacomin was named tot he First All-Star Team beating out Jacques Plante of Toronto, 157-111.

Some Giacomin-watchers still wondered whether he would execute his annual fold act in the playoffs. It certainly appeared that he would in the opening game of the first round against Toronto. But, gradually, Ed pulled himself together and, lo and behold, the Rangers actually made it past the first playoff round for the first time in 21 years.

Confronted by Chicago in the Cup semi-finals, Giacomin this time displayed rare courage. In the opening game at Chicago Stadium on April 18, 1970, Black Hawk ace Bobby Hull accidently slashed the back of Giacomin's left hand. It was a nasty cut, deep and long enough to compel Francis to insert Villemure as a replacement.

"I couldn't believe how bad the injury was when he came to the bench," said teammate Brad Park. "The wound was a about a quarter-inch wide and the first bandage simply turned into a bulge of blood."

But Giacomin insisted on returning. "I had no intention of coming out," the goalie explained. "Things were going too good with the team and when they're going that way you like to stay in the game."

He did and the Rangers defeated Chicago, 2-1, in sudden-death overtime. Giacomin continued to play gallantly throughout the series in which the Black Hawks finally triumphed late in the seventh and final game. For Eddie, though, it was a personal victory because he proved that the playoff jinx no longer afflicted him. He was a new man in more ways than one.

May 3, 1971, CP - Ed Giacomin wants a participation ribbon for the playoffs

Giacomin said he was satisfied in one respect; Rangers played him the full series against Chicago despite a losing image he'd had against the Hawks in recent years. "They said I couldn't play against Chicago," said Giacomin, adding the Rangers were prone to replacing him in games against the Hawks. "I played the whole series."

May 9, 1972 - Bob Strumm

If New York goaltender Ed Giacomin was wearing a Boston uniform, he probably would be in line for the Smythe award. Giacomin has been as valuable to the Bruins as anyone else in the final Cup series. Giacomin must throw his uniform in the dryer after every game, it's always soaking wet. He spends more time on the ice than the puck. The Bruins obviously know this and have been throwing their shots upstairs every time they have a clear opportunity. Gilles Villemure, a tiny goaltender with a lot of talent, has been with the Rangers two full seasons. But every time Francis faces a key situation in the playoffs, he relies on the old man, Giacomin, to pull him through. And from the evidence so far, Giacomin is not capable of supplying that kind of clutch performance.

 

[VanIslander]

This is an odd comparison, since a lot of Giacomin's popularity was because he was in New York, and a lot of Krieg and Largent's anonymity was because they played in Seattle.

(I was at greater than 50% of those home games between 1983 and 1988, and I agree to the point that I'd be inclined to include Steve Largent over Ed Giacomin if I had a vote this round.)

Geez. I grew up on Vancouver Island with the Seattle/Tacoma affiliates of CBS and ABC and the Detroit affiliate of NBC. Plus two Canadian channels and a local community channel. That's all in the mid-70's. Seattle had no NHL team so New York teams were most often featured on Saturday afternoons. Of course, Krieg & Largent of the local NFL Seahawks were constants.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Geez. I grew up on Vancouver Island with the Seattle/Tacoma affiliates of CBS and ABC and the Detroit affiliate of NBC. Plus two Canadian channels and a local community channel. That's all in the mid-70's. Seattle had no NHL team so New York teams were most often featured on Saturday afternoons. Of course, Krieg & Largent of the local NFL Seahawks were constants.

I grew up on the west side of Puget Sound and CBUT-2 was a staple for Canucks games (when I could convince my parents that it was a good thing and when we could get a strong signal).

Vancouver Island's gorgeous though - my favorite all-time hike was the West Coast Trail (we did the ladder half as an out-and-back so we could get 50 miles in with a stationary car).

 

[The Pale King]

From some of the quotes posted here, it looks like Giacomin is getting some extra mileage for playing all his team's games in addition to the league recently becoming "continent wide".

If anything, that's a point that should have worked in someone like Vachon's favour, given that he was somewhat of a workhorse and Los Angeles (and Vancouver, depending on the year) had the worst travel schedule in the league.

Speaking of Vancouver Island, the still-active Adin Hill is pretty clearly the best goalie from here (yes, better than Ron Graham and Laurent Broissoit). It's surprising there haven't been a couple more over the years, as you would think there'd be lots of money for goalie equipment here. Grant Fuhr and Olaf Kolzig played Junior on the island though (off the top of my head) and of course Hap Holmes won a Stanley Cup with the Victoria Cougars in 1924.

 

[Michael Farkas]

From some of the quotes posted here, it looks like Giacomin is getting some extra mileage for playing all his team's games in addition to the league recently becoming "continent wide".

That's right. I posted in the last round that there was literally (figuratively) no one else to vote for in his early years...I don't mean because the competition was so weak, but because no one was playing enough games.

He is just not an interesting or appealing figure for this list. If he was a Golden Seal, no one would have ever heard of this player.

 

[Professor What]

I think I'm ready for Giacomin. I feel like he needs to make this list (I think he's a top 60 guy), and we're nearing the end. I don't think we're boosting him by adding him at this point. I think he's one guy that I can say is clearly better than some of the guys we're looking at (Miller, Cheevers, Thomas, and Vernon, I'm looking at you). Anyway, I feel that he, Chabot, and Richter are shoo-ins for me right now.

Hern ranks fairly high on my list right now too. I want to see the old-timers get their fair share of recognition on this list, and Paton is the only other old-timer I think is likely to show up. I really don't think there are 60 goalies better than Hern in history. I wouldn't be at all upset to see him go in this round. This round or next though, I think he's a must.

Dzurilla is still the biggest question mark for me right now. I don't see him this round, but I see him as borderline for the last round, and I'd really like to hear some thoughts on him. I think he has the greatest potential for movement on my list, both upward and downward.

 

[seventieslord]

Okay, got it. His playoff record isn't very good. I won't vote for him 3 rounds ago.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong, but I still can't conceptualize the concept of "ready" or "waited long enough" in this context...

I can't figure out how it could apply. So I assume my contextual lens is wrong...

 

[Professor What]

I don't know if I'm reading it wrong, but I still can't conceptualize the concept of "ready" or "waited long enough" in this context...

I can't figure out how it could apply. So I assume my contextual lens is wrong...

Well, maybe I'm not phrasing it right. I don't care how long somebody has waited, and I don't think I've said that personally, but when I say that I'm ready for someone, it means that I feel like they fit in at this part of the list. I'd be "unready" I guess if I felt they were a bad fit.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok fair enough, then maybe it's a bad read by me. When I see "waited long enough" (or similar) and "ready" and the like, it makes me feel like there's some outside force drawing on the decision or something. Whether that's time or some other "force".

 

[Professor What]

Ok fair enough, then maybe it's a bad read by me. When I see "waited long enough" (or similar) and "ready" and the like, it makes me feel like there's some outside force drawing on the decision or something. Whether that's time or some other "force".

I agree that saying someone has waited long enough feels like an effort to force it. I certainly don't think that there would be any reason to "limit" someone to a certain number of rounds. But then again, if someone says that, it could be a bad read by both of us. I guess they could mean it in the same way I mean "ready."

 

[Felidae]

I'm gonna be that annoying user who keeps advocating for that one player.. Vokoun is still not available?


Vezina record be damned, dude put up comparable numbers to most of these 21st century goalies available. Let's compare shall we..


Vokoun

Finishes
GSAA: 2, 2, 2, 3, 9, 9, 10
Sv%: 2, 3, 5, 5, 9
Saves: 1, 3, 3, 5, 7, 9
GP: 2, 3, 7, 8

All time
15th in GSAA
15th in Sv%
25th in Saves
32nd in GP


Nabokov

Finishes
GSAA: 5, 5, 6, 9
SV%: 6, 7, 8, 10
Saves: 2, 6, 7
GP: 1, 5, 7, 7, 8, 8

All time
67th in GSAA
50th in sv%
38th in saves
33rd in GP


Saros

Stat Finishes
GSAA: 3, 5, 5
Sv%: 4, 8, 8, 9
Saves: 1, 1, 2, 3, 9
GP: 1, 1, 1, 3, 9

All time
43rd in GSAA
21st in sv%


Holtby

Finishes
GSAA: 2, 5, 5
SV%: 4, 8, 8
Saves: 1, 6, 7, 8
GP: 1, 3, 6, 9, 9

All time
69th in GSAA
27th in sv%
67th in saved
77th in GP


Tim Thomas

Finishes
GSAA: 1, 1, 2, 9, 10
Sv%: 1, 1, 4, 7
Saves: 5, 9
GP: 10th

All time

22nd in GSAA
6th in sv%
88th in saves



I'm aware that these stats are not the end all be all, and are heavily affected by the teams you're on. For instance, i doubt many on here believe Tim Thomas is as good as his stats suggest

But that's precisely my point, Vokoun played on significantly worse teams than all of these guys. Sure, his teams were sometimes competent defensively.. but in his entire career he never played for a team that ranked top 5 in GA, unlike most of these guys available

Vokoun also had some of his best seasons were his teams were below average defensively. 2009-10 and 2010-11 the Panthers ranked 19th and 14th in GA respectively.

2009-10 in particular was arguably a top 3 season of his career, with his 2nd highest sv% and 3rd highest GSAA in a season. No reason he shouldnt have at least been a Vezina finalist. Bryzgalov who was the runner up that season, only had 6 games on Vokoun, but faced less shots on net, played on one of the best defensive teams, and was still worse statistically.


Really, 2 things seem to be holding Vokoun back compared to most of these guys. The first one is, on a season to season basis, he didn't play as much games compared to the other top goalies. But among the goalies I've compared him to, it's offset by the fact that he faced more shots on a season to season basis than everyone other than Saros, and he also has the most career games played.

The 2nd obvious one is a nonexistent playoff record. But how much are we going to hold that against him when it was largely out of his control? Its also odd considering Saros is already available with 28 PO game. I'm pretty high on Saros and I think he'll be quite a bit higher by the time his career is done.. but if we're ranking in an all time sense and not "who was better" then I dont see how a goalie with just over half of Vokoun's GP is in, but he isn't. Saros has the heavier workload on a season to season basis, though his prime is also shorter

But then if the primary criteria was "who's better" given most of these guys didnt have the longest careers..then I don't see how you can confidently say some of these guys were better.. take Nabokov for instance, who was on one of the best teams in the league throughout his prime, had a relatively easy workload in terms of shots against even with his higher GP per season. Yet despite that, his statistical peak and prime is not as good. As for Holtby and Thomas, they don't have Vokoun's consistency or longevity.


Yeahso..Vokoun should be here...

 

[blogofmike]

Okay, got it. His playoff record isn't very good. I won't vote for him 3 rounds ago.

Are there only playoff failures left?

• Lorne Chabot

Won a Cup with the Rangers* and Leafs (over a thoroughly-ventilated JRR). If you like Gardiner, Chabot basically repeated the same season one year later in Chicago, winning the Vezina. His first round elimination was because he had zero goal support (literally) and lost after allowing 1 GA in 125 minutes of hockey.

• Gerry Cheevers

Had some very good showings in his first Boston run. If we ignore the two Cup runs, his 1969 should impress you as much as Mike Liut's 1986 did. He became the WHA's best goaltender when he left, just as the Bruins started having nightmares in net. Then there were some bad times...

• Roger Crozier

Mostly Crozier has the one great run. But even in 1975 you wonder if the Sabres could have won if they could have had more Crozier, as opposed to 1972 where you wonder if the Rangers could have won if they had less Giacomin.

• Vladimir Dzurilla

N/A for playoffs, but he was constantly matching the already listed Holecek and on occasion was just better (76 Canada Cup).

• Riley Hern

Depends a lot on how much you think the Wanderers were helping in front of him, but Hern doesn't seem to melt in the face of competition like Giacomin (or Moran...).

• Braden Holtby

Runs into a lot of solid matchups and plays well for the most part. The 2018 Lightning series is a cartoonish version of his career (or Bobrovsky), where he looks terrible or like an all-star. He had both in him, but the good in Holtby outweighs the good in Giacomin.

• Olaf Kolzig

Not a long list of playoff games, but also no special team support considerations here, the Caps went as far as Kolzig could carry. And he carried them as best he could, even if it was only stealing a game here and there outside of 1998.

• Ryan Miller

Usually reliable in Buffalo, even after high workload seasons. He probably deserves some heat for losing to Carolina in 2006, but his #1 offense vanished in the 2007 ECF.

• Evgeni Nabokov

This is more Giacomin's ballpark. I think I will vote for Ed Giacomin over Nabokov, who might have also been overplayed during the regular season.

• Chico Resch

There was that time Billy Smith went 0-3 against Pittsburgh and this guy went 4-0 to save the day. The knock would be that he did his good work behind a good team (although he was Rollins-ish in front of some bad ones soon after.) Still, I'd want Chico to protect my team's net over Giacomin.

• Mike Richter

Pretty good reviews as the only guy who won in New York since 1940 and the only guy who won a best-on-best tournament for Team USA ever. Mike Richter could steal a playoff game for you. Ed Giacomin could steal one for the other team.

• Al Rollins

Not going to have a ton of playoff experiences with Chicago, but he could stand behind the 51 Maple Leafs as well as Broda could, and Rollins was pretty crucial in delivering the Cup, going 3-0 with 5 GA in a Finals series where every game went to OT. With Chicago he went 7 games against Montreal with very little in front of him.

• Juuse Saros

Not much to speak of. Wasn't great in limited playoff time. I'd give Giacomin the nod, but mostly because Saros is a playoff DNF.

• Tim Thomas

Depends a lot on the team in front of him, but he did deliver the time that he did. In the same ball park.

• Mike Vernon

I believe I said he got killed a lot in the playoffs but mostly by killers. He also has a Conn Smythe Trophy and was pretty good in the Flames Finals runs in 1986 and 1989. For all of the hate he will rightfully deserve, Vernon had some upside compared to Giacomin.

 

[rmartin65]

With all due respect, that sack of quotes there screams, "he wasn't a good goalie" to me. Just reading between the lines on it, it's the ol' "once you get to know him, he's actually a nice guy..." line that you give when one of your good friends is actually a total dick haha

I read them as a description of a goalie that was respected and highly thought of, but everyone was aware of his flaws.

He was clearly a flawed goalie- he wouldn't still be up for debate if he wasn't. But he was also (clearly, IMO) a goalie that people considered among the best for a decent chunk of his career.

"Third defenseman", "a free spirit", "[the backup is a technician compared to him]"...it's exactly what you'd expect to be said about this player when you watch him. Fun at times, but not a goalie you could trust at any serious time...

"Brodeur, acting as a third defenseman all night with his poke checks..." (Star-Ledger, 24 November 2011)

All Habs dissed Giacomin, I agree...in a mocking way. Giacomin was at his worst against Montreal. A 3.55 GAA across 71 games. The worst of any team he faced more than 8 times. Same with the .883 save pct.

Said another way, if Giacomin only played the Habs from 1966-1977, he would be 56th in GAA and 67th in save pct. during that time (between Bernie Wolfe and Fern Rivard...assuming those are real people).

He tried to play the Habs in the postseason too...
Swept 4-0 by Rogie Vachon's team.
Swept 4-0 by Vachon and Gump; they had to turn to Villemure (who had about 10 games of NHL experience at that point) just to get away from Giacomin.

That's not an apples to apples comparison- what would all those goalies look like if they only played the Habs? Is he still 56th in GAA and 67th in save percentage?

April 8, 1969, Dink Carroll


March 24, 1970 - Jack Cook


April 10, 1970, Jack Cook


The following season Giacomin gets his first good playoff moment from Hockey Stars of 1972 via @Michael Farkas in the last project


May 3, 1971, CP - Ed Giacomin wants a participation ribbon for the playoffs


May 9, 1972 - Bob Strumm

Yeah, he definitely struggled in the playoffs. I'd wager that's a significant contributing factor as to why he is still being discussed.