HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 10

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means five names out of these fifteen will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement / hold grudges
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, January 3rd at midnight and continue through Sunday, January 5th at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, January 6th, at which point the next voting thread will begin.

Vote 10 Candidates

• Lorne Chabot
• Gerry Cheevers
• Marc-Andre Fleury
• Ed Giacomin
• Dave Kerr
• Olaf Kolzig
• Ryan Miller
• Evgeni Nabokov
• Tuukka Rask
• Mike Richter
• John Ross Roach
• Al Rollins
• Igor Shesterkin
• Tim Thomas
• Mike Vernon

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Wow. Lots of modern goalies. What am I counting, 10 that played after 2000?

Lots of uninspiring goalies available. Roach and Shesterkin stand out quite positively to me.

 

[MXD]

I ... sorta like Ryan Miller here quite a bit amongst new entrants? I feel like there was probably a time were he was legit seen as the best netminder in the world. A very short time, but a time nonetheless.

Vernon was a NR for me and it seems we're scraping the bottom of the barrell despite some 15 or 20 liters still left to drink.

 

[MadArcand]

What a Christmas present, Vernon! The only goalie that can make Tim Thomas look consistent and Gerry Cheevers look valuable at the same time...

 

[rmartin65]

Looking at where these goalies stack up relative to their contemporaries-

Name	Birth Year	Number of Players on List Born within 5 Years of Birth Year	Players on List Born within 5 Years of Birth Year
Mike Vernon	1963	7	Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Ed Belfour, Grant Fuhr, Curtis Joseph, John Vanbiesbrouck, Tom Barrasso
Mike Richter	1966	7	Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Ed Belfour, Grant Fuhr, Curtis Joseph, John Vanbiesbrouck, Tom Barrasso
Al Rollins	1926	6	Jacques Plante, Terry Sawchuk, Glenn Hall, Johnny Bower, Harry Lumley, Gump Worsley
Olaf Kolzig	1970	6	Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy, Martin Brodeur, Ed Belfour, Curtis Joseph, Tom Barrasso
Marc-Andre Fleury	1984	6	Henrik Lundqvist, Roberto Luongo, Carey Price, Jonathan Quick, Sergei Bobrovsky, Pekka Rinne
Tuukka Rask	1987	5	Henrik Lundqvist, Carey Price, Jonathan Quick, Sergei Bobrovsky, Pekka Rinne
John Ross Roach	1900	4	Charlie Gardiner, Roy Worters, Tiny Thompson, Alec Connell
Lorne Chabot	1900	4	Charlie Gardiner, Roy Worters, Tiny Thompson, Alec Connell
Gerry Cheevers	1940	4	Bernie Parent, Jiri Holecek, Tony Esposito, Rogie Vachon
Ryan Miller	1980	4	Henrik Lundqvist, Roberto Luongo, Miika Kiprusoff, Pekka Rinne
Tim Thomas	1974	3	Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo, Miika Kuprusoff
Evgeni Nabokov	1975	3	Martin Brodeur, Roberto Luongo, Miika Kuprusoff
Dave Kerr	1910	2	Frank Brimsek, Turk Broda
Ed Giacomin	1939	2	Jiri Holecek, Tony Esposito
Igor Shesterkin	1995	2	Andrei Vasilevsky, Connor Hellebuyck

As far as contemporaries go, we have battles between:

John Ross Roach and Lorne Chabot
- This duo was up last week, and it looks like Ross has significantly more support than Chabot at this point. I wonder if any new information comes up that challenges this positioning.

Ed Giacomin and Gerry Cheevers
- Similar story as the above- based on last week's results, Giacomin has the advantage.

Mike Vernon and Mike Richter
- I won't like, one of the surprises for me when I saw the voting results was the amount of support Richter got- I just don't see it. Of course, I don't see it for Vernon right now either, haha, so while I think I have these two sorted relative to each other, I'd be really interested to read what other have to say.

Mike Richter and Olaf Kolzig
- This should be fun

Olaf Kolzig, Tim Thomas, and Evgeni Nabokov
- Man, I don't think I would have put Thomas in the same age bracket as the other two. He feels like a more recent goalie, right?

Evgeni Nabokov and Ryan Miller
- Again, Nabokov and Miller seem like two different "eras". I think Miller peaked higher, but Nabokov peaked for longer.

Ryan Miller and Marc-Andre Fleury
- I know I've been a MAF skeptic, but I don't think there were very many years where I'd have taken Miller over him.

Marc-Andre Fleury and Tuukka Rask
- Another repeat battle- MAF with considerably more support last round than Rask.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Vezina Shares

Stolen from @TheDevilMadeMe 's methodology and updated to 2024

There are 22 goalies with a 1.0 share or higher

	Goalie	Times	Share
1	Martin Brodeur	15	5.40
2	Dominik Hasek	11	4.76
3	Patrick Roy	17	4.63
4	Connor Hellebucyk	5	2.63
5	Ed Belfour	11	2.51
6	Pekka Rinne	5	2.12
7	Andrei Vasilevsky	6	2.05
8	Tom Barrasso	7	1.98
9	Sergei Bobrovsky	6	1.97
10	Henrik Lundqvist	10	1.93
11	Grant Fuhr	8	1.84
12	Braden Holtby	3	1.68
13	Roberto Luongo	9	1.66
14	Tim Thomas	3	1.55
15	John Vanbiesbrouck	9	1.52
16	Tuukka Rask	5	1.50
17	Miikka Kiprusoff	7	1.44
18	Carey Price	7	1.40
19	Evgeni Nabokov	6	1.23
20	Curtis Joseph	8	1.02
21	Pete Peeters	3	1.02
22	Igor Shesterkin	3	1.02

Bolded are eligible. Italicized are inducted

Miller is at 0.87, Fleury is at 0.86, Kolzig and Vernon are at 0.84, Richter is at 0.21

Times top 3
Thomas - 2 (1,1)
Rask - 2 (1,2)
Shesterkin - 1 (1)
Kolzig- 1 (1)
Fleury 1 - (1)
Miller - 1 (1)
Nabokov - 1 (2)
Vernon - 1 (2)
Richter - 1 (3)


All-Star Team Finishes (1945 onwards)

Player	First	Second	Third	Total	Weighted Total
Ed Giacomin	1​	3​	0​	4​	14​
Tim Thomas	2​	0​	0​	2​	10​
Tuukka Rask	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Igor Shesterkin	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Evgeni Nabokov	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Ryan Miller	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Olaf Kolzig	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Marc-Andre Fleury	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​
Mike Vernon	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​
Gerry Cheevers	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​
Mike Richter	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​
Al Rollins	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​

 

[CuuuJooo]

I feel like Kirk McLean merits inclusion on this list.

*ducks*

 

[jigglysquishy]

Every Al Rollins playoff game

1951 Playoffs
Bruins beat Leafs 2-0. Al Rollins, who split starts with 36-year-old Turk Broda, injures his knee and is expected to miss "the next 10 days". Leafs win series 4-1

Leafs beat Habs 3-2 in OT
Leafs 1 Habs 0

Broda in net

Habs win 3-2 in OT
Leafs 1 Habs 1

Broda in net

Leafs win 2-1 in OT
Shots: Leafs 30 Habs 24
Leafs 2 Habs 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 18, 1951

Al Rollins, who took over the Leafs' goal tending job from veteran Turk Broda, was at his best and the Montrealers helped to thwart their own efforts by gumming up plays when in scoring position.

Leafs win 3-2 in OT
Leafs 3 Habs 1

No relevant comments

Leafs win 3-2 in OT
Shots: Leafs 41 Habs 19
Leafs 4 Habs 1

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 23, 1951

The crowd shouted for veteran Turk Broda, the greatest playoff goalie of them all, who played two games against Canadiens and all but one period of the six-game semi-final against Boston Bruins because of an injury to Al Rollins. But Broda was too shy and fought off teammates who tried to drag him to the microphone.

Well, Broda gets more praise than Rollins across these two series, but he has more opportunity with the injury. Lots of Leafs get praise (Broda, Kennedy, Smith, Bentley, Barilko) and it's hard to give much credit for a goalie who misses 70% of the games. Richard is the most praised player overall.

1952 Playoffs
Red Wings beat Leafs 3-0
Leafs 0 Red Wings 1

No relevant comments

Red Wings win 1-0
Leafs 0 Red Wings 2

Ludington Daily News · ‎Mar 28, 1952

The 37-year-old [Broda] made a dramatic comeback from near retirement Thursday night but couldn't quite stop the Wings.

The Leafs played their hearts out for the old man of hockey.... Conn Smythe is considering using Broda again Saturday and Tuesday at Toronto.

Broda, who made his 100th playoff game one of his greatest, was used only once during the regular season - in the final game for 30 minutes when he replaced Al Rollins.

Red Wings win 6-2
Leafs 0 Red Wings 3

Broda plays

Red Wings win 3-1
Leafs 0 Red Wings 4

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 2, 1952

Smythe's decision to put in a bulging Turk Broda in place of Al Rollins will likely go down as the bum heave of the year.

Rollins' ego must have taken a dip when Smythe yanked him in favor of the more or less retired Broda. Stories of an impending trade with Chicago are making the rounds in which Rollins would end up in a down-the-river-trade by Chicago Hawks. In any event, it would be hard to expect Rollins to sleep well at nights either before or after he was replaced by Broda.

A Toronto Telegraph reporter had to say: "Quick now. Who is Al Rollins? You don't remember? Well he is the goalkeeper for Toronto Leafs, see, and he is the same fellow who just a few days ago was described by top brass Conn Smythe as almost as good as Detroit's Terry Sawhuck. Well, this Rollins has all of a sudden became a wallflower in the playoff series and those who felt Smythe was wrong in putting Broda in the nets are second-guessing him now..."

Hard to follow the exact logic with the goalie controversy. At 37 (almost 38), Broda is 6 years older than any other goalie in the league. Rayner, second oldest, is four years older than Gelineau in third place. There is a clear youth movement for goalies. Is Broda unnecessarily pushed out? It's not like Rollins is having good games though.

Not much praise for any Leaf, but certainly not for either goalie.

1953 Playoffs
Habs beat Hawks 3-1
Shots: Hawks 24 Habs 32
Hawks 0 Habs 1

The Leader-Post · ‎Mar 25, 1953

Hawks' persistent checking and Al Rollins' good work in the nets held Canadiens out.

Habs win 4-3
Hawks 0 Habs 2

No relevant comments

Hawks win 2-1 in OT
Hawks 1 Habs 2

Ottawa Citizen · ‎Mar 30, 1953

[Geoffrion] surprised Rollins by coming in steadily, then picking his spot and sending it low into the left corner. Rollins never had a chance.

Hawks win 3-1
Hawks 2 Habs 2

The Vancouver Sun · ‎Apr 1, 1953

A strong Chicago defence and Al Rollins' stellar netminding thwarted their scoring attack.

As a complete aside, Rocket Richard played with the Vancouver Canucks in the WHL in 1953 is the front-story April fools prank.

Hawks win 4-2
Hawks 3 Habs 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 3, 1953

Sid Abel, Chicago Coach, when asked in he had any special praise for any of his players: "Well, Rollins of course. Who else? He was terrific. Naturally the guys who put the pick into the net had something to do with winning too."

Abel's acclaim of Goalie Al Rollins was just about unanimous even amongst Montreal fans.

Habs win 3-0
Shots: Hawks 24 Hawks 30
Hawks 3 Habs 3

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 6, 1953

The great Rollins appeared to have cooled out a bit. He just didn't figure to stay hot forever.

Habs win 4-1
Hawks 3 Habs 4

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 8, 1953

Goalie Al Rollins, who played great hockey for the Hawks in this series.

He's the most praised Hawk overall, and man that is just not a good team. Plante makes his playoff debut here and there are glimpses of greatness.


Overall, it's hard to pull much of anything. Only 13 NHL playoff games. Only one series as a starter and it's on a big underdog. He's the best Hawk in that series, but again it's only one playoff series.

I'd like to take a closer look at his Hart year if I have time. He does not have a playoff record to be up now, but has a legendary two-year Hart run on some pretty weak Blackhawks teams.

 

[overpass]

I did some research on Al Rollins for the preliminary round. I was very open to the idea that the best goaltenders weren't always in the NHL during the Original Six era, and that maybe the second-tier goalies of that era were underrated, but I came away pretty unimpressed with Rollins. I think he was barely an NHL goalie for most of his NHL career, didn't impress that much in the minors, and had about two good to very good NHL seasons (partial regular season in 1950-51, full season in 1952-53, first half of 1953-54).

If he was born five years later, I'm not sure he would have ever been an NHL regular. Among 1926 born goalies who aren't on the list yet, I rate him clearly behind Gerry McNeil.

Pre-NHL
Rollins got an early start in pro hockey thanks to the war, playing minor pro at 18. After three seasons, no NHL teams had come calling for Rollins. So he moved to senior hockey with the goal of getting attention through an Allan Cup run, and it worked. He won the Allan Cup with the Flyers, and Chicago signed him to a minor league deal.

Rollins played one season for Kansas City in the USHL. Many expected him to move up to the big club for the 1949-50 season, but the Hawks traded for Frank Brimsek instead, who had requested a trade closer to home.

He caught a break early in the 1949-50 season when the Toronto Maple Leafs goaltending situation went off the rails. In training camp, Baz Bastien lost an eye and retired, and Howie Harvey retired due to a skin rash. And then Turk Broda started the season overweight. So the Leafs traded for Rollins in November of 1949, and kept him with the big club all season. However, he barely played, and was said to be there as a threat to keep Broda in line and in shape.

NHL
Rollins had one of his few standout seasons as an NHL rookie. He started by splitting time equally with Broda, but outplayed Broda and got most of the games late in the season. He finished with an outstanding GAA of 1.77, 2nd in Calder voting to Sawchuk. That said, this Leafs team was absolutely dominant. In the playoffs they allowed 18.8 shots against per 60, the lowest total I'm aware of. Rollins got hurt in the playoffs and Broda came in and had a playoff GAA of 1.16.

Rollins' performance fell off in 51-52. While his GAA looks good, fans and media agreed he needed to be replaced, with Harry Lumley the top candidate. Rollins was pulled in the playoffs for the 38 year old Broda and then traded with several other players for Lumley.

Rollins had an excellent first season for Chicago in 52-53, and got a lot of credit for an unexpected playoff berth. He finished second in Hart voting. The following year, 1953-54, Rollins won the Hart trophy in one of the stranger decisions in history. The Hawks were bad all season, and really fell apart defensively in the second half of the season. Rollins had a 2.61 GAA through December, and then a 3.82 GAA January-March. I think Rollins got this award as a thank you for doing his best to keep Hawks games entertaining. Rollins wasn't a post-season all-star in either season.

Past his peak
Rollins played most of the next three seasons with the Hawks, who were now starting to improve under Tommy Ivan. He had trouble holding Hank Bassen off at times. I don't think he was one of the best six goaltenders in the league world at this point, when you consider that Johnny Bower and Gerry McNeil weren't NHL starters.

After Rollins left the NHL, he didn't make much of a mark in the minor leagues. He played his last full season at age 33 for the Winnipeg Warriors.

 

[overpass]

Every Al Rollins playoff game

1952 Playoffs

Hard to follow the exact logic with the goalie controversy. At 37 (almost 38), Broda is 6 years older than any other goalie in the league. Rayner, second oldest, is four years older than Gelineau in third place. There is a clear youth movement for goalies. Is Broda unnecessarily pushed out? It's not like Rollins is having good games though.

The Leafs faded down the stretch in 1952. Rollins had a 2.56 GAA in February and March, after posting a 2.02 GAA through the end of January, and took some blame for the slump. It was at this time that Toronto fans and media were talking about trading for Harry Lumley.

It probably didn't help Rollins that his father was in a Vancouver hospital recovering from a stroke when the 1952 playoffs started.

 

[overpass]

Some articles on Rollins over his career.

Saskatchewan Star-Phoenix, Apr 17, 1948
- Key man of Edmonton Flyers, one win away from Allan Cup final
- Rollins played for New York Rovers at age 17, got rheumatic fever and was cut from the Rangers' reserve list
- Rollins reminds one of such kick-stopping goalers as Dave Kerr and Sam Timmins, believes a netminder should be on his feet unless he has to fall to smother a rebound.

Edmonton Journal, May 13, 1948
- Rollins was voted most valuable player of the Allan Cup champion Edmonton Flyers by Edmonton fans (25,000 ballots cast).
- Fraser M. Gerrie, managing editor of the Journal, introduced Rollins as "the greatest goalie in the Dominion of Canada today, not even excepting Turk Broda of Toronto Maple Leafs and Bill Durnan of Montreal Canadiens" (for what it's worth, there's obviously an element of pumping the hometown goalie's tires).

Vancouver Sun, Nov 30, 1949
-The Sun described Rollins as the lanky kid who became the best goalie in the Pacific Coast Hockey League in his three years on the coast (he did play for the local Vancouver team in his third season, so maybe some hometown boosting again).
- Rollins was coached assiduously by veteran minor pro goalie Porky Levine while in Vancouver. (Levine was retired and running a hotel in Vancouver).
- Rollins was virtually a one-man team as Edmonton Flyers beat Hamilton for the Allan Cup
- It was expected that he would move up to the Hawks this season after a year with Black Hawks USHL farm club Kansas City.

Calgary Herald, Feb 20, 1951
-Leafs had the idea of having Rollins and Broda play an equal number of games and share the Vezina trophy, but Rollins has played so well that they can't take him out.

Quebec Chronicle-Telegraph, May 4, 1954
-Rollins wins the Hart.

"Rollins's play was so phenomenal throughout the entire 53-54 campaign that he just couldn't be overlooked in the balloting. Even though Chicago was often defeated by big margins, Rollins never stopped trying or giving his best. Hockey writers around the National League circuit used to marvel at his scintillating play game after game. They were afraid that he might become vulcanized from stopping so much rubber."

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix, May 5, 1954
- Writers second-guess Rollins' Hart win.
- Elmer Ferguson of the Montreal Herald, the dean of NHL writers: "We can't remember when the experts made a more idiotic selection...if this sort of mawkish sentimental voting is to become a permanency, it's better we should scrap all the awards in the book and turn over their allocation to the league or the governors or the coaches."
- Baz O'Meara of the Montreal Star, another league veteran: "Our own preference was for Maurice Richard...nearly everyone thought Kelly would win the award but he has had plenty of awards and honors and awards this year."
- Red Burnett of the Toronto Daily Star: "It's just possible that Detroit's Red Kelly, Canadiens' Maurice Richard, and Leafs' Harry Lumley were more valuable to their teams than Rollins in the strict sense of the word...the hungry-looking six-foot-two native of Vanguard, Sask. rates the coveted Hart Trophy--maybe they should spell it "heart" in this case - for courage if nothing else."

I think Ferguson has the right of it when he says "mawkish sentimental voting". See the comment by Burnett - Rollins rates the Hart trophy for courage, maybe they should spell it "heart". Groan. And the comment in the Quebec article about Rollins who "never stopped trying or giving his best."

 

[seventieslord]

Strange anomaly that with these goalies having played a combined ~200 NHL seasons in the era of all-star teams and vezinas, and between them they only have one combined instance of being 3rd in voting for either honor.