HoH Project: Pre-Consolidation

BenchBrawl

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Jul 26, 2010
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BTW that list I made was done skimming an ATD list, so guys like Russell Bowie are underrated on it and would be ranked higher, since team needs don't matter in the project.

Michael Farkas has a point that it would be interesting to discuss the evolution of the game and the elite players. But even in the 25th-35th range you find players that were elite in their prime. Joe Simpson for example was absolutely elite out west, before losing his edge when he came in the east. Duke Keats, usually ranked below Mickey Mackay and Frank Fredrickson, was still a top center in his day. The difference was like Modano vs. Sakic/Yzerman in the 90s or something like that.
 

Professor What

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It might be a worthwhile tool for the preliminary lists to make a list of the eligible players that made the top 200 and position lists. After we've made the decision about the cutoff of course.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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It might be a worthwhile tool for the preliminary lists to make a list of the eligible players that made the top 200 and position lists. After we've made the decision about the cutoff of course.

I skimmed the list and identified ~20 players that made the Top 200, give or take. Unclear whether Bill Cook will be eligible, for example.

Nighbor 20th
Cook 34th
Lalonde 39th
Cleghorn 57th
Vézina 66th
Malone 72th
Benedict 74th
Denneny 79th
Gerard 105th
Bowie 107th
Lehman 131th
Phillips 138th
Stuart 150th
Mackay 159th
G.Boucher 162th
Moose Johnson 165th
Fredrickson 167th
Dye 178th
Keats 182th
L.Patrick 197th

Now here's a few players that made the project of their respective position without making the Top 200:

Defensemen Project
Harry Cameron 57th
Harvey Pulford 60th

Goalies Project
Hap Holmes 30th
Percy LeSueur 35th

Centers Project
None

Wingers Project
Pitre 51th
Noble 60th

Done in good faith.

-------------------------

Other than those mentioned, there are still a few players that are well known to the ATD, and with detailed bios, that would be worth discussing.

Players like Joe Hall, Joe Simpson, Frank McGee, Art Duncan, Gordon Roberts, Harvey Pulford, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Herb Gardiner, etc.

Those aren't obscure players that would require intense time-consuming research to figure out. We know them as well as the rest.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
I skimmed the list and identified ~20 players that made the Top 200, give or take. Unclear whether Bill Cook will be eligible, for example.

Nighbor 20th
Cook 34th
Lalonde 39th
Cleghorn 57th
Vézina 66th
Malone 72th
Benedict 74th
Denneny 79th
Gerard 105th
Bowie 107th
Lehman 131th
Phillips 138th
Stuart 150th
Mackay 159th
G.Boucher 162th
Moose Johnson 165th
Fredrickson 167th
Dye 178th
Keats 182th
L.Patrick 197th

Now here's a few players that made the project of their respective position without making the Top 200:

Defensemen Project
Harry Cameron 57th
Harvey Pulford 60th

Goalies Project
Hap Holmes 30th
Percy LeSueur 35th

Centers Project
None

Wingers Project
Pitre 51th
Noble 60th

Done in good faith.

-------------------------

Other than those mentioned, there are still a few players that are well known to the ATD, and with detailed bios, that would be worth discussing.

Players like Joe Hall, Joe Simpson, Frank McGee, Art Duncan, Gordon Roberts, Harvey Pulford, Jack Walker, Frank Foyston, Herb Gardiner, etc.

Those aren't obscure players that would require intense time-consuming research to figure out. We know them as well as the rest.

We can do 60 with no problem whatsoever.
 

jigglysquishy

Registered User
Jun 20, 2011
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Regina, Saskatchewan
I think pre-consolidation is a fun project and I'd love to take part.

Female hockey could be interesting, but I don't know enough to be involved.

Best coaches is dumb.

I think we can pull off a top 60, though I would accept a top 40. A top 100 is too much though.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
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Except for George Hay ...

For a project I think we have no choice but to go one by one before starting.

Btw, we do a Top 60-50-40?
If the dividing line for borderline cases is debut in a major league (whatever we decide that to mean) by 1920, then Hay may qualify- it depends on if the SSHL considered a major league. I believe @Sanf opined that the SSHL should qualify when we were discussing a potential pre-consolidation draft.

As for the size of the list- I think we have enough knowledge and research ability to do a Top-50 without it getting too difficult. I'd push for a Top-60, but I think 50 is a very achievable number.
 

ResilientBeast

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Jul 1, 2012
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@rmartin65
1667220951257.png
 
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ResilientBeast

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BTW that list I made was done skimming an ATD list, so guys like Russell Bowie are underrated on it and would be ranked higher, since team needs don't matter in the project.

Michael Farkas has a point that it would be interesting to discuss the evolution of the game and the elite players. But even in the 25th-35th range you find players that were elite in their prime. Joe Simpson for example was absolutely elite out west, before losing his edge when he came in the east. Duke Keats, usually ranked below Mickey Mackay and Frank Fredrickson, was still a top center in his day. The difference was like Modano vs. Sakic/Yzerman in the 90s or something like that.

Ah yeah because people like Tommy Dunderdale and Ernie Russell were not selected and should absolutely make the top 60.

The fact Russell wasn't even selected in the MLD is wild to me
 
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ResilientBeast

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I'm in, I'm willing to be administrator, and I'd like to see this be as long a list as possible. There are plenty of candidates worth discussing.

Agreed on the bolded. There a tons of candidates and I'd love to actually be able to explore in a group pre-professional leagues in a slightly more robust way. The longer the list the better chance we actually can talk about lots of those players.
 

Professor What

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In case anyone is interested, I went through the list of the 2020 ATD since it was so large and looked for eligible players on the draft list. I included anyone who had their major debut in or before the 1920-21 season or that played before the professional era. I also included George Hay as he's been mentioned as a specific exception. I'm not going to guarantee that I didn't miss anyone, but I found 72. If anyone is interested or wants to double check the list, I'll be glad to post it. (I also went over 2022 and 2021 to catch guys that might have gone higher in those years.)
 
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bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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I'd still much rather do a project ranking peaks. We've never, ever done anything of the sorts before. It would be something completely new & different.

We've ranked pre-consolidation players previously as part of top 100 & 200. And a lot of posters have already replied saying they're interested, but likely to have limited time to actually do extra research. I suspect it'll be difficult to get enough active participation and contributions to make this project worthwhile
 

ResilientBeast

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In case anyone is interested, I went through the list of the 2020 ATD since it was so large and looked for eligible players on the draft list. I included anyone who had their major debut in or before the 1920-21 season or that played before the professional era. I also included George Hay as he's been mentioned as a specific exception. I'm not going to guarantee that I didn't miss anyone, but I found 72. If anyone is interested or wants to double check the list, I'll be glad to post it. (I also went over 2022 and 2021 to catch guys that might have gone higher in those years.)

I'd be interested in seeing it and then we can construct some sort of decider for edge cases
 

ResilientBeast

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I'd still much rather do a project ranking peaks. We've never, ever done anything of the sorts before. It would be something completely new & different.

We've ranked pre-consolidation players previously as part of top 100 & 200. And a lot of posters have already replied saying they're interested, but likely to have limited time to actually do extra research. I suspect it'll be difficult to get enough active participation and contributions to make this project worthwhile

So I disagree a couple of ways

1) Sure we've compared a handful of pre-consolidation players in the bigger projects but not in a really robust way. The international project had lower participation but was incredibly informative for expanding the discussion surrounding players that don't come up as often in these projects. The Makarov v Kharlamov discussion canonized a shift in their ranking. And it's 100x easier for an average participant to gain access to newspaper clippings and other contemporary material for Pre-Consolidation NA hockey than it was for that project.

2) I'm deeply uninterested in another project with largely the same pool of players as the top 100 and 200. It's not new ground, sure it's a different framework for ranking them, but the players are largely the same.
 

Professor What

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I'd be interested in seeing it and then we can construct some sort of decider for edge cases
Alright, here it is. Again, I don't guarantee that I didn't miss anyone. The number to the left of each name is the pick they were taken at in the 2020 draft.

22​
Frank Nighbor
36​
Cyclone Taylor
53​
Sprague Cleghorn
63​
Newsy Lalonde
71​
Eddie Gerard
79​
Cy Denneny
81​
Joe Malone
87​
Georges Vezina
114​
Clint Benedict
125​
Hod Stuart
135​
Nels Stewart
141​
Tommy Phillips
144​
Moose Johnson
155​
Frank Foyston
159​
Harry Cameron
168​
Lester Patrick
199​
Babe Dye
203​
Hugh Lehman
208​
Reg Noble
215​
Mick MacKay
219​
Didier Pitre
221​
Herb Gardiner
223​
Harvey Pulford
242​
Hap Homes
260​
Art Ross
267​
Mike Grant
268​
Punch Broadbent
271​
Frank Fredrickson
278​
Duke Keats
290​
Jack Walker
295​
Art Duncan
297​
Joe Hall
307​
George Hay
309​
Alf Smith
314​
Russell Bowie
320​
Joe Simpson
326​
Percy Lesueur
327​
Blair Russell
363​
Frank Patrick
374​
Odie Cleghorn
375​
Tommy Smith
379​
Bobby Rowe
387​
Red Dutton
414​
Marty Walsh
416​
Eddie Oatman
439​
Tommy Dunderdale
463​
Si Griffis
464​
Jack Adams
474​
Smokey Harris
492​
Jack Darragh
523​
Harry Hyland
554​
Hamby Shore
558​
Jack Marshall
561​
Dan Bain
573​
Alf Skinner
695​
Bouse Hutton
742​
Ernie Russell
745​
Scotty Davidson
756​
Albert Kerr
784​
Howard McNamara
787​
Riley Hern
808​
Barney Stanley
817​
George McNamara
843​
Graham Drinkwater
849​
Paddy Moran
850​
Corb Denneny
863​
Gord Fraser
874​
Harry Westwick
900​
Dick Irvin
915​
Bill Coutu
922​
Leo Reise, Sr.
941​
Harry Mummery
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Alright, here it is. Again, I don't guarantee that I didn't miss anyone. The number to the left of each name is the pick they were taken at in the 2020 draft.

22​
Frank Nighbor
36​
Cyclone Taylor
53​
Sprague Cleghorn
63​
Newsy Lalonde
71​
Eddie Gerard
79​
Cy Denneny
81​
Joe Malone
87​
Georges Vezina
114​
Clint Benedict
125​
Hod Stuart
135​
Nels Stewart
141​
Tommy Phillips
144​
Moose Johnson
155​
Frank Foyston
159​
Harry Cameron
168​
Lester Patrick
199​
Babe Dye
203​
Hugh Lehman
208​
Reg Noble
215​
Mick MacKay
219​
Didier Pitre
221​
Herb Gardiner
223​
Harvey Pulford
242​
Hap Homes
260​
Art Ross
267​
Mike Grant
268​
Punch Broadbent
271​
Frank Fredrickson
278​
Duke Keats
290​
Jack Walker
295​
Art Duncan
297​
Joe Hall
307​
George Hay
309​
Alf Smith
314​
Russell Bowie
320​
Joe Simpson
326​
Percy Lesueur
327​
Blair Russell
363​
Frank Patrick
374​
Odie Cleghorn
375​
Tommy Smith
379​
Bobby Rowe
387​
Red Dutton
414​
Marty Walsh
416​
Eddie Oatman
439​
Tommy Dunderdale
463​
Si Griffis
464​
Jack Adams
474​
Smokey Harris
492​
Jack Darragh
523​
Harry Hyland
554​
Hamby Shore
558​
Jack Marshall
561​
Dan Bain
573​
Alf Skinner
695​
Bouse Hutton
742​
Ernie Russell
745​
Scotty Davidson
756​
Albert Kerr
784​
Howard McNamara
787​
Riley Hern
808​
Barney Stanley
817​
George McNamara
843​
Graham Drinkwater
849​
Paddy Moran
850​
Corb Denneny
863​
Gord Fraser
874​
Harry Westwick
900​
Dick Irvin
915​
Bill Coutu
922​
Leo Reise, Sr.
941​
Harry Mummery

Nels Stewart is absolutely a post consolidation player, his debut in the NHL was 25-26

The rest are all names I'd expect to see
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
What Stewart did before the NHL is 100% a part of his legacy and value as a player - and many guys don't get the credit they deserve for their non-NHL work in that 1920-1935 range - but with that said, Nels Stewart is still absolutely a post-consolidation player.
 

rmartin65

Registered User
Apr 7, 2011
2,883
2,509
Stewart debuted in the USAHA in 1920-21. I listed him because @rmartin65 listed that among the "major" leagues. But, I guess that's the sort of thing that we need to discuss in the preparation phase.
Yeah, @Sanf made a good case some time back for the USAHA being a major league. The big problem of that is that it does make Stewart eligible- which I think everyone can agree that he shouldn't be. But, as you said- we'll get the actual rules sorted out in the rules thread/once we get enough people.

If I didn't double-count or skip anyone, we are at 14 people- hopefully we hear back from a few more, but I'm encouraged by the sign-ups so far.
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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Gallifrey
Yeah, @Sanf made a good case some time back for the USAHA being a major league. The big problem of that is that it does make Stewart eligible- which I think everyone can agree that he shouldn't be. But, as you said- we'll get the actual rules sorted out in the rules thread/once we get enough people.

If I didn't double-count or skip anyone, we are at 14 people- hopefully we hear back from a few more, but I'm encouraged by the sign-ups so far.
Well, if we can make an exception for Hay not starting top level play by 1920, we can make an exception the other way for Stewart.

And we had, what, 17 members for the top 200 project? We're getting very close to that now.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,515
15,876
I'd still much rather do a project ranking peaks. We've never, ever done anything of the sorts before. It would be something completely new & different.

We've ranked pre-consolidation players previously as part of top 100 & 200. And a lot of posters have already replied saying they're interested, but likely to have limited time to actually do extra research. I suspect it'll be difficult to get enough active participation and contributions to make this project worthwhile
I like the "best peak" idea as well, but the challenge is, how do we define it?

Best single season is probably the cleanest, easiest way. But then we'd probably have to limit it to one season per player, otherwise the top 20 is going to be nothing but Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux and probably Howe. But limiting it to one season per player would underrate just how great those four were. Plus, part of the challenge would be figuring out which season is chosen for each (maybe there's some value in debating which Gretzky season from 1982 to 1987 was the best, but a lot of this would be rehashing what's been discussed many times before).

If we stick to the best season idea, how do we deal with playoffs? Sometimes a player has a really strong playoff run during their best regular season (Malkin in 2009 and Sakic in 2001 are semi-recent examples). But sometimes a player is completely underwhelming in the playoffs in their best year (Dionne in 1980, Mikita in 1967, Kucherov in 2019, etc). Maybe it doesn't matter much for Dionne, but Kucherov had some very strong playoff performances - would we ignore those just because they didn't happen during his Hart-winning season?

What do we do with players who never had a "signature" season where they put it all together? Forsberg had a year where he won the Hart and Art Ross, but he wasn't at his best by that point (it was a great season of course, but he won those trophies because of weak competition and that was one of only a few years where he was reasonably healthy). Many other "versions" of Forsberg were better (1997 regular season, 1999 RS & PO, 2002 playoffs, 2004 regular season, 2006 before getting injured, etc). So there's a disconnect between how good Forsberg was at his peak, versus how good his peak season was. He'd get underrated if we're only looking at a single season.

If we look at a longer period of time - how long do we look? This would have a big impact on the results. For example, if we define it as "best six consecutive seasons including playoffs", Guy LaFleur would almost certainly be #5 (and, truthfully, maybe even higher). If it's "best three non-consecutive seasons, pick and choose whichever playoff runs", he'd still rank highly, but not nearly as much as before.

Or we let everyone decide their own definition. But then we're comparing apples to oranges, and I don't think the end result would be a coherent list.

None of these would prevent us from doing this project. Just that these are things we'd have to sort out in advance.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Regina, SK
It depends on when we draw the line. @ResilientBeast once suggested 1920 as the debut cutoff, and I think it works really well.
I agree with BenchBrawl... go one by one before starting. Most players are an obvious yes or an obvious no. There are probably... what? 10 players who would be in the realm of consideration for this list, who may be in a gray area of eligibility?
 

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