HOH 2022-23 Project: Top-60 Pre-Merger Players of All-Time Pre-Discussion thread

[seventieslord]

For the pre-pre-discussion thread, see here:

HoH Project: Pre-Consolidation

I know we’ve talked about doing a Pre-Consolidation project- based on the most recent project’s timeline, it looks like we should start the discussion threads shortly if we are indeed going to go through with this one this year. I can help admin this thing, but I’d really appreciate some help...

forums.hfboards.com

The purpose of this thread is:

- To discuss on a philosophical and practical level, how we will rank players in this project
- To discuss the logistical challenges that exist and how to navigate them (multiple leagues, competition level difference, amateur/pro, stats/eye test, importance of cups, quickly developing hockey landscape re: rules)
- To build interest in the project and collect a list of interested participants
- To determine which players are and aren't eligible for this project (i.e. do they count as pre-merger or post-merger)
- To build something of a consensus about which players are a lock for inclusion on this list, who has no chance, and the dozens in between who will merit consideration and discussion

Click to read more...

 

[BenchBrawl]

While purely optional, I recommend buying a subscription to newspapers.com, once the project starts.

I can vouch that if you intend to dive into old newspapers for articles, it is very much worth it. The search engine works great.

It cost 19.90$ USD a month.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm really interested in who we put #1. It was a foregone conclusion in the players, centres, wingers, and defenseman list who would go 1. I thought we might put Richard #1 in playoff performers, but we ended up with Gretzky. I loved the Euro list since there was an actual fight for 1.

Frank Nighbor was the highest ranked player in the 2018 list. Taylor, Cook, and Lalonde not that far behind. Is this the order they place in here?

Malone went second to Cook in 2008, before all the research into Nighbor's defensive play. Did we swing too far the other way against Malone?

Do we finally get a list with Frank McGee on it? How will voters handle situations like his where players deliberately did not go pro on principle? We don't really have a modern equivalent. Maybe Mozyakin never coming to the NHL is the closest post Soviet comparison.

Vezina or Benedict for best pre consolidation goalie?

Very exciting project. Looking forward to deep dives so we can separate the legends from the players.

 

[Professor What]

So, if we're going top 60, are we making top 80 lists to start?

 

[jigglysquishy]

While purely optional, I recommend buying a subscription to newspapers.com, once the project starts.

I can vouch that if you intend to dive into old newspapers for articles, it is very much worth it. The search engine works great.

It cost 19.90$ USD a month.

I've long wanted to do this and been scared off by the price tag. This is a great opportunity to splurge. Are we allowed to post screenshots of news articles here, even if they're from behind a paywall?

 

[seventieslord]

I'm really interested in who we put #1. It was a foregone conclusion in the players, centres, wingers, and defenseman list who would go 1. I thought we might put Richard #1 in playoff performers, but we ended up with Gretzky. I loved the Euro list since there was an actual fight for 1.

Frank Nighbor was the highest ranked player in the 2018 list. Taylor, Cook, and Lalonde not that far behind. Is this the order they place in here?

Malone went second to Cook in 2008, before all the research into Nighbor's defensive play. Did we swing too far the other way against Malone?

Do we finally get a list with Frank McGee on it? How will voters handle situations like his where players deliberately did not go pro on principle?

Vezina or Benedict for best pre consolidation goalie?

Very exciting project. Looking forward to deep dives so we can separate the legends from the players.

It would take a lot of convincing to put anyone ahead of Frank Nighbor for #1 for me.

In 2008, the order was Lalonde, Taylor, Cook, Malone. I expect it's a lot different now. In fact, the order of the "big 3" forwards has completely flip-flopped. Taylor still in the middle, with Nighbor on top and Lalonde bringing up the rear.

As far as Cook is concerned, is he even part of this project? I suppose he's one of the ones that need to be discussed, but I'm pretty sure I'm coming down on the side of NO.

my VsX pre-consolidation numbers seem to suggest Cook's best, 3rd best, and 7th best seasons were pre-merger and the rest of his 12 best seasons were post. 9 of 12 is hard to overcome, even if 2 of his best 3 were before.

I think Frank McGee will 100% make this list. He has some strong supporters here, who ranked him for other projects, and those people are more likely to participate here. I think he's overrated and still, I plan to rank him myself.

I think the HOH community has firmly come down on the side of Vezina being the best goalie by reputation/eye test. I see no reason for that to change. Benedict's earlier reputation as the best was based on Coleman's opinion in The Trail, and that was seemingly a GAA centered opinion.

So, if we're going top 60, are we making top 80 lists to start?

Yes, I think that would be appropriate.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I've long wanted to do this and been scared off by the price tag. This is a great opportunity to splurge. Are we allowed to post screenshots of news articles here, even if they're from behind a paywall?

I transcribe everything, but other people have posted screenshots in ATD bios in the past.

Unaware if it's allowed or not.

 

[Professor What]

I don't see Cook being eligible here. He didn't debut in the WCHL until 1922, and I highly doubt that the NOHA/NMHL are of sufficient status to make his performances in them particularly relevant to the time.

 

[seventieslord]

Thinking back to the Europeans project, I think it may be a good idea to get onto the same page as far as how we handle rapidly developing competition in a relatively short time.

I think that if we are doing a "global, all-time" list of players then there is good reason to not even consider the likes of Malecek, Bobrov, Sologubov and Zabrodsky. They weren't anywhere near the best players on earth in their time.

But I recognize that there is a case to be made for evaluating them differently when doing a list of the greatest non-NHL europeans of all-time. From a strictly European standpoint, it matters not whether Zabrodsky would have been out of his league against NHL professionals, it matters that he was absolutely the best player in Europe.

I remember seeing individual lists in that project that ranked them very highly, by voters who clearly took the latter approach to ranking. I myself took the former approach, and had them 31st, 45th, 64th and 65th. Ultimately, these players ranked 21st, 22nd, 26th and 34th, which I don't think makes any sense by either method. Based on their domestic and international tournament dominance, these are probably 4 of the top-8 of all-time. Based on their relative greatness compared to the best in the world in their era, they may not be top-50.

So that brings us back to the top pre-merger players. Let's look at a player like Harry Hyland, a HHOFer and perfectly fine player who deserves consideration here. But in his generation (1910s priming players), he may not even be among the 12 best forwards (he's in fact 17th in the decade according to Ian Fyffe's Hockey Historysis blog post, the meritorious men of the 1910s). Go back 10 years to the 1900s, and sure, I guess we'll be ranking Russell Bowie, Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips and probably Jack Marshall ahead of Hyland, but what about the next class of forwards? Harry Smith? Marty Walsh? Ernie Russell? Herb Jordan? Rat Westwick?

By the time we get to Westwick, we're talking about maybe the ~9th best forward of the decade, with Hyland around ~19th of his own. Yet, Hyland seems to carry more clout when it comes to drafting him in projects like the ATD. The closer to merger it gets, the more we respect the era and the players in it. Are we aiming to have a list that ends up with considerably more players from each newer generation of players? Or are we trying to have the same number from each generation? Or split the difference somehow? And if we do, will it make sense in the end or will it look like those four players in the Europeans project?

 

[rmartin65]

I would prefer to leave Cook off this list as well- yes, he was a star before he joined the NHL, but I think he has a very significant post-consolidation playing career. It's the same situation as Stewart, in my opinion.

 

[seventieslord]

Personally, I'm going to push for us to make room for at least the top-5 from this list:

Hall of Famers from the Earliest Years

In a previous post I wrote that players from the earliest days of organized hockey have largely been left out of the Hall of Fame, not beca...

hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com

 

[Professor What]

Personally, I'm going to push for us to make room for at least the top-5 from this list:

Hall of Famers from the Earliest Years

In a previous post I wrote that players from the earliest days of organized hockey have largely been left out of the Hall of Fame, not beca...

hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com

Bain and Grant were already on my radar. The other three probably weren't because of their lack of HOF induction. I'd be very interested in seeing someone make the case for players that aren't in the Hall.

 

[seventieslord]

From Ian's meritorious men of the 1920s, a lot of names need to be discussed and removed. For starters, I'm pretty sure we all agree Morenz would not qualify for this.

The Meritorious Men of the 1920s

To continue our look at Hall of Fame inductees versus TPAK results (previously discussed: the 1910s , 1900s , and the earliest years), we g...

hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.com

Probably a good goal to strive for would be to have 10 names on the list who show up as pre-1900 players on Ian's list (or would show up if he had listed them, not saying anyone he didn't name isn't worth considering), 15 who are in the 1900s list, 20 from the 1910s list, and 15 from the 1920s list. Give or take. That's just a rough take, based on the strength of the generations and the development of hockey at the time.

I mean, I'm sure Barney Stanley was a better player than Weldy Young in absolute terms, but that's not what we're trying to measure, right?

Bain and Grant were already on my radar. The other three probably weren't because of their lack of HOF induction. I'd be very interested in seeing someone make the case for players that aren't in the Hall.

just like every era, there are plenty of players out of the hall who probably deserved it more than some who are in.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm assuming we're excluding King Clancy? 5 of 16 years pre consolidation but clearly peaked post consolidation.

If so, I don't think anyone will overtake Sprague Cleghorn for top defenseman.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm assuming we're excluding King Clancy? 5 of 16 years pre consolidation but clearly peaked post consolidation.

If so, I don't think anyone will overtake Sprague Cleghorn for top defenseman.

absolutely, dude was still playing in 1937.

 

[Professor What]

I'm assuming we're excluding King Clancy? 5 of 16 years pre consolidation but clearly peaked post consolidation.

If so, I don't think anyone will overtake Sprague Cleghorn for top defenseman.

Yeah, I would say Clancy is out. Even using the basic rule of thumb of a 1920 debut would disqualify him, and he's not going to have a reason for an exception like Hay will.

 

[seventieslord]

1	MORENZ, Howie	5	1116	4.67	124.8	OUT
2	HAINSWORTH, George	G	1611	3.84	116.9	Discuss
3	COOK, Bill	7	1341	4.08	116.7	Discuss
4	BOUCHER, Buck	3	1304	4.16	112.9	IN
5	JOLIAT, Aurel	6	1328	3.86	109.7	OUT
6	NIGHBOR, Frank	5	1286	3.77	109.3	IN
7	BENEDICT, Clint	G	1319	3.95	108.6	IN
8	CONACHER, Lionel	3	1177	4.08	105.9	OUT
9	OLIVER, Harry	75	1332	3.58	105.3	Discuss
10	CLANCY, King	3	1185	4.04	102.7	OUT
11	MacKAY, Mickey	54	1289	3.53	99.3	IN
12	DENNENY, Cy	6	1241	3.63	98.0	IN
13	NOBLE, Reg	35	1382	3.45	96.2	Discuss
14	GARDINER, Herb	3	946	3.75	94.7	Discuss
15	KEATS, Duke	5	1001	3.57	90.4	IN
16	SIMPSON, Joe	3	1193	3.42	90.2	IN
17	DUTTON, Red	3	1282	3.29	90.1	Discuss
18	COOPER, Carson	7	1023	3.38	88.5	Discuss
19	DENNENY, Corb	5	1267	3.02	86.9	IN
20	HAY, George	6	955	3.50	85.8	IN
21	CONNELL, Alec	G	776	3.73	85.2	OUT

Thoughts?

 

[Professor What]

1	MORENZ, Howie	5	1116	4.67	124.8	OUT
2	HAINSWORTH, George	G	1611	3.84	116.9	Discuss
3	COOK, Bill	7	1341	4.08	116.7	Discuss
4	BOUCHER, Buck	3	1304	4.16	112.9	IN
5	JOLIAT, Aurel	6	1328	3.86	109.7	OUT
6	NIGHBOR, Frank	5	1286	3.77	109.3	IN
7	BENEDICT, Clint	G	1319	3.95	108.6	IN
8	CONACHER, Lionel	3	1177	4.08	105.9	OUT
9	OLIVER, Harry	75	1332	3.58	105.3	Discuss
10	CLANCY, King	3	1185	4.04	102.7	OUT
11	MacKAY, Mickey	54	1289	3.53	99.3	IN
12	DENNENY, Cy	6	1241	3.63	98.0	IN
13	NOBLE, Reg	35	1382	3.45	96.2	Discuss
14	GARDINER, Herb	3	946	3.75	94.7	Discuss
15	KEATS, Duke	5	1001	3.57	90.4	IN
16	SIMPSON, Joe	3	1193	3.42	90.2	IN
17	DUTTON, Red	3	1282	3.29	90.1	Discuss
18	COOPER, Carson	7	1023	3.38	88.5	Discuss
19	DENNENY, Corb	5	1267	3.02	86.9	IN
20	HAY, George	6	955	3.50	85.8	IN
21	CONNELL, Alec	G	776	3.73	85.2	OUT

Thoughts?

I take no issue with any of your definitive in or out judgments, so I'd say I agree with this.

 

[jigglysquishy]

When was Bill Cook born? Wikipedia lists 1895. Hockeydb lists 1898. Hockey reference and NHL.com list 1896. I feel like we've talked about this before.

Where are we sitting on Frank Fredrickson? 161 pro post consolidation regular season games. 163 pro pre consolidation regular season games. I would like to include him as he was such a pivotal forward in the PCHA.

 

[BenchBrawl]

1	MORENZ, Howie	5	1116	4.67	124.8	OUT
2	HAINSWORTH, George	G	1611	3.84	116.9	Discuss
3	COOK, Bill	7	1341	4.08	116.7	Discuss
4	BOUCHER, Buck	3	1304	4.16	112.9	IN
5	JOLIAT, Aurel	6	1328	3.86	109.7	OUT
6	NIGHBOR, Frank	5	1286	3.77	109.3	IN
7	BENEDICT, Clint	G	1319	3.95	108.6	IN
8	CONACHER, Lionel	3	1177	4.08	105.9	OUT
9	OLIVER, Harry	75	1332	3.58	105.3	Discuss
10	CLANCY, King	3	1185	4.04	102.7	OUT
11	MacKAY, Mickey	54	1289	3.53	99.3	IN
12	DENNENY, Cy	6	1241	3.63	98.0	IN
13	NOBLE, Reg	35	1382	3.45	96.2	Discuss
14	GARDINER, Herb	3	946	3.75	94.7	Discuss
15	KEATS, Duke	5	1001	3.57	90.4	IN
16	SIMPSON, Joe	3	1193	3.42	90.2	IN
17	DUTTON, Red	3	1282	3.29	90.1	Discuss
18	COOPER, Carson	7	1023	3.38	88.5	Discuss
19	DENNENY, Corb	5	1267	3.02	86.9	IN
20	HAY, George	6	955	3.50	85.8	IN
21	CONNELL, Alec	G	776	3.73	85.2	OUT

Thoughts?

Reg Noble is definitely IN, and I agree with all your IN and OUT.

The rest of the "Discuss" I'm still undecided about.

What do we think of the OHA Sr? An overview of all the leagues with a visual timeline of their existence and strength would be extremely helpful, I hope someone more versed than me can do it in this thread.

 

[rmartin65]

1	MORENZ, Howie	5	1116	4.67	124.8	OUT
2	HAINSWORTH, George	G	1611	3.84	116.9	Discuss
3	COOK, Bill	7	1341	4.08	116.7	Discuss
4	BOUCHER, Buck	3	1304	4.16	112.9	IN
5	JOLIAT, Aurel	6	1328	3.86	109.7	OUT
6	NIGHBOR, Frank	5	1286	3.77	109.3	IN
7	BENEDICT, Clint	G	1319	3.95	108.6	IN
8	CONACHER, Lionel	3	1177	4.08	105.9	OUT
9	OLIVER, Harry	75	1332	3.58	105.3	Discuss
10	CLANCY, King	3	1185	4.04	102.7	OUT
11	MacKAY, Mickey	54	1289	3.53	99.3	IN
12	DENNENY, Cy	6	1241	3.63	98.0	IN
13	NOBLE, Reg	35	1382	3.45	96.2	Discuss
14	GARDINER, Herb	3	946	3.75	94.7	Discuss
15	KEATS, Duke	5	1001	3.57	90.4	IN
16	SIMPSON, Joe	3	1193	3.42	90.2	IN
17	DUTTON, Red	3	1282	3.29	90.1	Discuss
18	COOPER, Carson	7	1023	3.38	88.5	Discuss
19	DENNENY, Corb	5	1267	3.02	86.9	IN
20	HAY, George	6	955	3.50	85.8	IN
21	CONNELL, Alec	G	776	3.73	85.2	OUT

Thoughts?

At first glance, I have no disagreents about your listed IN/OUT players. As for the discuss section-

Hainsworth- I think the "meat" of his career is pretty clearly post-consolidation. OUT

Cook- Same as above- definitely a noteworthy career pre-consolidation, but he's remembered for his post-consolidation career- OUT

Oliver- it's close, but I think his best years were pre-consolidation- IN

Noble- IN

Gardiner- IN, and pretty comfortably, IMO

Dutton- oooh, this is a hard one. I guess OUT?

Cooper- It depends on what we think of the OHA Sr league, right? He did have that good early year in the NHL, so I'm leaning IN... but I could definitely be convinced otherwise.

 

[seventieslord]

When was Bill Cook born? Wikipedia lists 1895. Hockeydb lists 1898. Hockey reference and NHL.com list 1896. I feel like we've talked about this before.

Where are we sitting on Frank Fredrickson? 161 pro post consolidation regular season games. 163 pro pre consolidation regular season games. I would like to include him as he was such a pivotal forward in the PCHA.

Frank Frederickson is undoubtedly a pre-merger player.

(should we be calling this pre-merger or pre-consolidation?)

 

[seventieslord]

About the discussion-worthy players: I think I have an opinion on each of them but I didn't think they were exactly obvious so it was worth talking about them. Here are the ones from Iain's 1920s list (which means they are perhaps the only ones who need to be discussed, as I doubt any 1910s or 1930s-associated player would even be arguable)

Hainsworth: 1895 born,
Cook: 1895/96 born
Oliver: 1898 born
Noble: 1896 born
Gardiner: 1891 born
Dutton: 1897 born
Cooper: 1899 born

Goodness, one thing that stands out right away is that Gardiner is clearly a pre-merger player, as he was 34/35 when he joined the NHL.

It's worth checking the years of birth for some others to see if they are from the same few birth years.

Duke Keats (1895)
Buck Boucher (1895)
George Hay (1898)
and I guess we have to throw in Art Gagne (1897) too.

Everyone else seems obvious to the point it's not worth discussing. So our 1895-1899 birthdays are:

George Hainsworth (1895)
Duke Keats (1895)
Buck Boucher (1895)
Bill Cook (1895/1896)
Reg Noble (1896)
Red Dutton (1897)
Art Gagne (1897)
George Hay (1898)
Harry Oliver (1898)
Carson Cooper (1899)

Is it possible to draw a line based on year of birth? Or does it require a case-by-case look at how many years they played before and after 1926? Does that mean we're really just basing it on what age they retired at? Because they all started playing hockey that mattered right around the age of 20.

Off the top of my head, I associate Hainsworth, Cook and Cooper with post merger hockey for sure. But that includes the oldest and youngest of the ten! Keats and Boucher seem obviously pre-merger.

Hainsworth: 13 full seasons before 1926, 10 seasons after (but the ones that he is best known for were after 1926)
Keats: 9 seasons before 1926 (would've been 11 if not for WW1), 3 after (plus 5 in a noteworthy minor league), all his best known seasons were before 1926
Boucher: 11 seasons before 1926, 6 after
Cook: 4 seasons before 1926, 11 after (2 of his best 3 seasons were before merger, but 9 of his best 12 were post). We could say he had 6 seasons before 1926, if we even know what NOHA and NMHL stood for. And what the heck was he doing from the age of 18 to 24???
Noble: 11 seasons before 1926, 7 after. 1925-26 was the first year of the twilight of his career which he spent as a hard rock defensive defenseman. He was a high scoring forward prior to this.
Dutton: 6 years prior, 10 years after. He was a WCHL all-star in his 20s, but also ranked highly in Hart voting a few times in the NHL in his 30s.
Gagne: 6 before, 6 after. His pre-26 seasons are his 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th, 8th best.
Hay: 5 before (7 if you count SSHL - we probably should), 6 after. His WCHL/WHL seasons are his 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th best.
Oliver: 6 before, 11 after. His seasons before include his 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 7th best.
Cooper: 8 before, 6 after. He's tough because he was an absolute smokeshow in the OHA but is best known for being an NHL player (which he also was for 2 years before 1926). My numbers say his 2nd-7th best seasons were before 1926.

I don't think there's any way we can go by age! Everyone's career is different. I think Keats and Boucher are as obviously in as it gets. My initial instinct to exclude them was right. Dutton and Cook are as obviously out as it gets.

In between that, I'd subjectively rate them as follows:

PRE
Noble (61% of seasons pre-26, 100% of significant seasons pre-26)
Cooper (57%, 67%)
Gagne (50%, 50%)
Hay (45%, 63%)
Oliver (35%, 55%)
POST

From that, I'd say Noble and Cooper are in, Gagne is in because 50% should be good enough, and besides, he had four significant seasons so he should not be a threat anyway. Hay and Oliver had less than half their careers before 1926, but more of their significant years were before 1926. On the basis that at least the 2nd numbers are over 50%, I'd say keep them in.

I left out Hainsworth because he's harder to judge. I have no formula to just determine when he was truly at his best. Surely, his most famous years are 1927, 1928 and 1929 (when he won the vezina despite not really being known as one of the few best goalies), and 1930 and 1931 (when he won the cup and a retro smythe). But the years in which he actually got some individual recognition were 1918 & 1920 (OHA 1st AST), 1921 & 1923 (OHA 2nd AST), and 1926 (WHL AST). Is all that enough to overcome actual NHL achievements, as team-oriented as they were? I dunno. He was 31 before he played an NHL game.

 

[Professor What]

My takes on the players labeled as "discuss."

Hainsworth - OUT
Cook - OUT
Oliver - I'd like to see more discussion. He has fewer pre-consolidation seasons than most-consolidation, but it could be argued that his pre-consolidation career was his best work.
Noble - IN
Gardiner - IN
Dutton - More conversation, please. I feel the same way on him as Oliver.
Cooper - I agree with others that we need an assessment of the OHA Sr before making a decision.

In fact, as far as leagues go, if we had a comparison of the strength of the various leagues before the professional era, that could be very helpful.

 

[seventieslord]

My takes on the players labeled as "discuss."

Hainsworth - OUT
Cook - OUT
Oliver - I'd like to see more discussion. He has fewer pre-consolidation seasons than most-consolidation, but it could be argued that his pre-consolidation career was his best work.
Noble - IN
Gardiner - IN
Dutton - More conversation, please. I feel the same way on him as Oliver.
Cooper - I agree with others that we need an assessment of the OHA Sr before making a decision.

In fact, as far as leagues go, if we had a comparison of the strength of the various leagues before the professional era, that could be very helpful.

Combining my rambling with your take, it's Hainsworth, Oliver, Dutton and Cooper that need discussion.

Oliver having 5 of his best 7 seasons before 1926 should be pretty clear cut.

Cooper has 6 of his best 7 seasons before 1926 in my opinion. It is by no means 100% clear cut. His offensive exploits in the OHA are judged by simple VsX equivalencies that I did a few years ago, a deliberate fudge that was meant to put only the most elite OHA players on equal footing with star NHL forwards. This was logical because that's exactly what players of this caliber later became.

Dutton is not as tough as Hainsworth, but he's tough. Because 6 vs. 10 looks pretty clear cut, but when was he really at his best? We sure can't say based on point totals, that's not fair to do for a defenseman. He was a 1st team WCHL all-star in 1922, 1924 and 1925. BUT, he did finish 5th, 7th and 9th in NHL defensemen all-star voting (1931, 1932, 1934) and was 4th, 5th & 7th in Hart voting (1931, 1932, 1936). Spotty recording of unofficial GM-named all-star teams in 27, 28, 29 & 30 don't seem to mention him but it's hard to say how much support he had. Given what we know about him in 1922-1925 and 1931-1936, he was probably pretty well-regarded. Based on this he seems clearly not a pre-merger player. He shows up in award voting for a span of six NHL years, even if not every single year, and lack of evidence may be the only reason he doesn't show up more prior to that.