Hmmm .... Zach Hyman

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of how Matthews/Nylander are held back from the top echelon of players by virtue of 5v5 production rather than PP production. Matthews only has 2 powerplay goals (Laine has 19 by comparison) on the year. Why is that less of a focus than his completely dominant 5v5 production?

 

[Liminality]

As much as I wish we had generational talents like Crosby and Malkin who are capable of absurd production even with sub-par players, we don't. And even then, Kessel played a lot of time with Malkin last playoffs.

If we want to do what they did, we need to maximize production of our best guys with better linemates.

Malkin 68gp 55EVp
Matthews 53gp 43 EVp
Nylander 72gp 43 EVp
Kessel 72gp 43 EVp
Crosby 72gp 42 EVp
Hyman 72gp 33EVp
Guentzel 72gp 30 EVp
Rust 59gp 29 EVp
Sheahan 63gp 26 EVp

 

[White Shadow]

Processing another?

Nashville reached the cup finals by stacking their top-line. Too bad Johansen got injured in game 4 of the Anaheim series otherwise they might have won the cup.

If you're only referencing this year, trading for Kyle Turris definitely changed up their dynamic a bit. But the facts are they reached the cup finals with a stacked top line.

And please, I really want you to define your standard of a "stacked line" so we can get into a more thorough discussion. Hard to argue when you're just free to flip-flop where ever you please because you won't specify your stance.

Can you please just read what is posted and stop embellishing, creating and modifying?

You literally just did it again. I reposted for you to see, it was exactly 5 minutes old when you hit reply.


Preds go back and forth. Last week they had Forsberg on the 3rd line.

 

[IBeL34f]

I know for a fact that there's several people who claim Hyman doesn't hurt Nylander and Matthews' production.

Nylander and Matthews are top-50 and top-10 in the entire League in EVP/60 as 2nd-year NHLers - How much could Hyman be "hurting" their production?

Could they score more with a more offensively-gifted player in Hyman's spot? Totally, I think everyone has already admitted this many times over. Is their 5v5 production being "hurt" playing with Hyman, to the point that he deserves the kind of criticism he receives here? I'd hardly say so.

As I pointed out previously, whatever's going on on that 2nd PP unit is way, way more of a concern for me, as far as Matthews' and Nylander's production goes, than the current state of our top 5v5 line. How anyone could look at Matthews and Nylander's 5v5 and PP stats and decide that the reason they aren't higher in League scoring is because of Zach Hyman is absolutely mind-boggling.

Again, we're in the 2nd year of this core being together, and we're 6th in the League Standings, 5th in GF/G, 20th in GA/G - What exactly is the goal here in simply increasing the offensive output of our top line at 5v5? How can anybody look at any of what's going on with this team and come to the conclusion that Zach Hyman is "the problem"?

You want Matthews and Willy scoring more? Fix the 2nd PP unit.

You want the Leafs to be even better than 6th Overall? Be patient through the development process (Rome wasn't built in a day) and bring in depth Forwards you trust 5v5 more than Bozak and JVR.

Scoring more Goals is always great, but if people absolutely need to be critical of something during such a successful season, at least try and be critical of the things that aren't working well. Our offense isn't a problem; Our top line isn't a problem; Zach Hyman isn't a problem.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Nylander and Matthews are top-50 and top-10 in the entire League in EVP/60 as 2nd-year NHLers - How much could Hyman be "hurting" their production?

Could they score more with a more offensively-gifted player in Hyman's spot? Totally, I think everyone has already admitted this many times over. Is their 5v5 production being "hurt" playing with Hyman, to the point that he deserves the kind of criticism he receives here? I'd hardly say so.

As I pointed out previously, whatever's going on on that 2nd PP unit is way, way more of a concern for me, as far as Matthews' and Nylander's production goes, than the current state of our top 5v5 line. How anyone could look at Matthews and Nylander's 5v5 and PP stats and decide that the reason they aren't higher in League scoring is because of Zach Hyman is absolutely mind-boggling.

Again, we're in the 2nd year of this core being together, and we're 6th in the League Standings, 5th in GF/G, 20th in GA/G - What exactly is the goal here in simply increasing the offensive output of our top line at 5v5? How can anybody look at any of what's going on with this team and come to the conclusion that Zach Hyman is "the problem"?

You want Matthews and Willy scoring more? Fix the 2nd PP unit.

You want the Leafs to be even better than 6th Overall? Be patient through the development process (Rome wasn't built in a day) and bring in depth Forwards you trust 5v5 more than Bozak and JVR.

Scoring more Goals is always great, but if people absolutely need to be critical of something during such a successful season, at least try and be critical of the things that aren't working well. Our offense isn't a problem; Our top line isn't a problem; Zach Hyman isn't a problem.

and i'd argue - the way to fix that unit is playing mitch the whole shift. He's the straw that's stirring Unit 2. Will was good last season but i think unlesss Will gets consistent, Mitch is better than Will on the PP.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

and i'd argue - the way to fix that unit is playing mitch the whole shift. He's the straw that's stirring Unit 2. Will was good last season but i think unlesss Will gets consistent, Mitch is better than Will on the PP.

Marner is quietly #4 in the league in powerplay points/60. and he's pretty unlucky to be that low, in my opinion

 

[IBeL34f]

Sheary, Guentzel and Hornqvist >>>> Hyman AINEC

Hyman has a better EVP/60 this year than Hornqvist. I'll have to take a look at the others when I get back to my computer.

Just coming back to this, since I'm back at the office - Liminality already touched on their EVP/G, but Hyman's EVP/60 (161st) is also higher than any of Guentzel (210th), Hornqvist (281st) and Sheary (323rd)

(All numbers here are League-wide across all Positions, no minimum Games Played)

 

[Gary Nylund]

As much as I wish we had generational talents like Crosby and Malkin who are capable of absurd production even with sub-par players, we don't. And even then, Kessel played a lot of time with Malkin last playoffs.

If we want to do what they did, we need to maximize production of our best guys with better linemates.

So is your argument that stacked lines are the way to go unless the players you're stacking are too good, then stacking isn't the way to go? Unless you have something to back this up, it's all speculation.

If Kessel played with Malkin a lot in the playoffs, not sure how that affects your argument. Perhaps in the end it doesn't even matter all that much who plays with who, now wouldn't that be something.

 

[IPS]

Just coming back to this, since I'm back at the office - Liminality already touched on their EVP/G, but Hyman's EVP/60 (161st) is also higher than any of Guentzel (210th), Hornqvist (281st) and Sheary (323rd)

(All numbers here are League-wide across all Positions, no minimum Games Played)

Sure.

Even strength goals in 2012: Clarkson had more ES goals than Pavelski, Neal, Perry, Marleau.

Clarkson as a goal scorer >>>> those guys.

Blindly pointing out stats with no context behind them is incredibly misleading. Folks in here just can't seem to understand this as they continue to blindly defend Babcock's ridiculous lineup decisions.

I have no idea how many times this needs to be explained but dear god is this getting exhausting. Could avoid all of this if people just decided to argue honestly.

 

[IPS]

So is your argument that stacked lines are the way to go unless the players you're stacking are too good, then stacking isn't the way to go? Unless you have something to back this up, it's all speculation.

If Kessel played with Malkin a lot in the playoffs, not sure how that affects your argument. Perhaps in the end it doesn't even matter all that much who plays with who, now wouldn't that be something.

Is that really what my post came off to you as? Please explain, maybe I could use your insight to improve the quality of my future posts.

It just sounds like you're misinterpreting what I was saying.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Marner is quietly #4 in the league in powerplay points/60. and he's pretty unlucky to be that low, in my opinion

yeup. i think once he figures out how to be 2nd half mitch in the first half of the season. watch out league.

 

[IBeL34f]

Sure.

Even strength goals in 2012: Clarkson had more ES goals than Pavelski, Neal, Perry, Marleau.

Clarkson as a goal scorer >>>> those guys.

Blindly pointing out stats with no context behind them is incredibly misleading. Folks in here just can't seem to understand this as they continue to blindly defend Babcock's ridiculous lineup decisions.

I have no idea how many times this needs to be explained but dear god is this getting exhausting. Could avoid all of this if people just decided to argue honestly.

The complaint with Hyman is that he can't put up offense, isn't it? How is putting up his offensive numbers relative to other players around the League in response to that complaint misleading?

At least I provided some stats - You literally just said that the players are better ("AINEC") with absolutely no statistical backing. The stats I used were also adjusted as much as possible to allow for an even playing field (using EVP/60 rather than EVP/G or Total EVP). Your example above then uses only ESG as a raw number. Talk about misleading!

One thing I can certainly agree on - This is definitely getting exhausting.

 

[4thline]

Blindly pointing out stats with no context behind them is incredibly misleading. Folks in here just can't seem to understand this as they continue to blindly defend Babcock's ridiculous lineup decisions.

Calls stats that signify that a wildly successful 5v5 line is wildly successful "misleading", accuses others of doing something blindly. Heh.

 

[IPS]

Calls stats that signify that a wildly successful 5v5 line is wildly successful "misleading", accuses others of doing something blindly. Heh.

Yeah, misleading.

When bottom-6 grinders are glued to incredibly skilled linemates, their production will be misleading. Anything else you'd like me to explain?

 

[IPS]

The complaint with Hyman is that he can't put up offense, isn't it? How is putting up his offensive numbers relative to other players around the League in response to that complaint misleading?

At least I provided some stats - You literally just said that the players are better ("AINEC") with absolutely no statistical backing. Talk about misleading!

One thing I can certainly agree on - This is definitely getting exhausting.

How was David Clarkson putting up his offensive numbers relative to other star players around the league misleading???

 

[Gary Nylund]

Is that really what my post came off to you as? Please explain, maybe I could use your insight to improve the quality of my future posts.

It just sounds like you're misinterpreting what I was saying.

I was just asking for clarification your part, not sure how that could be classified as misinterpreting anything.

 

[IBeL34f]

How was David Clarkson putting up his offensive numbers relative to other star players around the league misleading???

I was referring to your post regarding Guentzel, Sheary and Hornqvist, which simply stated an opinion* as fact. (*I call it an "opinion" because there was nothing provided to substantiate your claim)

However, I edited my last post to showcase how your raw Clarkson numbers could still be considered very much misleading.

 

[4thline]

Yeah, misleading.

When bottom-6 grinders are glued to incredibly skilled linemates, their production will be misleading. Anything else you'd like me to explain?

Yes. Explain to me why "misleading" stats count for less than "true" stats.

The fact is that as a "bottom-6 grinder glued to incredibly skilled linemates" Hyman produces as much or more than his contemporaries 5v5.
The fact is that as a "incredibly skilled linemate with a glued on bottom 6 grinder" Matthews produces as much or more than his contemporaries 5v5.
The fact is that the unit is one of the most effective 5v5 lines in the league.

 

[IPS]

I was referring to your post regarding Guentzel, Sheary and Hornqvist, which simply stated an opinion* as fact. (*I call it an "opinion" because there was nothing provided to substantiate your claim)

However, I edited my last post to showcase how your raw Clarkson numbers could still be considered very much misleading.

Clarkson was just that bad at passing the puck. Luckily for Hyman, Matthews stepped into the league as the best ES goal scorer, so he can score up some nice assists.

 

[Liminality]

Sure.

Even strength goals in 2012: Clarkson had more ES goals than Pavelski, Neal, Perry, Marleau.

Clarkson as a goal scorer >>>> those guys.

Blindly pointing out stats with no context behind them is incredibly misleading. Folks in here just can't seem to understand this as they continue to blindly defend Babcock's ridiculous lineup decisions.

I have no idea how many times this needs to be explained but dear god is this getting exhausting. Could avoid all of this if people just decided to argue honestly.

Clarkson was actually tied in EV goals with Pavelski, Neal and Perry in 2011-2012 with 22.
Clarkson was also ranked 139th with 30 EV points that year. Worse than Pavelski's 43 EVp, Neal's 51 EVp, Perry's 35 EVp and Marleau's 39 EVp.

 

[White Shadow]

Yeah, misleading.

When bottom-6 grinders are glued to incredibly skilled linemates, their production will be misleading. Anything else you'd like me to explain?

And yet, with Hyman on Matthews wing his ES pts/60 is better than Crosby's

Matthews 3.0
Crosby 2.1

Using opinion and dismissing raw facts may seem fine to you but it doesn't play.

 

[ACC1224]

If Hyman has only ever played with Matthews, how are his stats misleading? Wouldn't they just be his stats?

 

[White Shadow]

If Hyman has only ever played with Matthews, how are his stats misleading? Wouldn't they just be his stats?

His stats the past 9 games without Matthews have been excellent. That line still out chances the opposition.

 

[IBeL34f]

Clarkson was just that bad at passing the puck. Luckily for Hyman, Matthews stepped into the league as the best ES goal scorer, so he can score up some nice assists.

What? What does this have to do with accurately representing your data when trying to make an argument?

Yeah, misleading.

When bottom-6 grinders are glued to incredibly skilled linemates, their production will be misleading. Anything else you'd like me to explain?

Who is being misled? Who's trying to sell you a turd under the guise of chocolate? People are simply telling you that having a decent top-6 producer on our top line at 5v5 isn't anything to complain about. That's all anyone seems to be arguing, and that's all the stats suggest.

You (and others) have complained that a player is hindering the offensive abilities of his linemates based on that player's individual "lack of skill". You then stated (as fact - "AINEC") that a few players on another team were better than that previous player in question. I provided adjusted stats showcasing that that isn't currently the case (offensively, at least). And now you're bringing up David Clarkson again and complaining that you're being "misled"? Come on.

 

[glue]

Wow, its just crazy how far some of these arguments are going. I think its been proven, VERY clearly, why many and probably majority of folks think Hyman on the 1st line might not be ideal, but they see the logic of why he's likely our best option on that line right now all things considered.

I, just like many other fans get frustrated when I see Hyman on a line with Matthews/Nylander and a lack of offensive ability, but I think thats being blown wayyy out of proportion by some to the point of suggesting he's good at basically nothing and that we have guys who can immediately replace him and do all the things he does much better. That is where it gets to a point of utter BS. I'll repost this from before:

Personally I don't like Hyman that high on the lineup either, but right now, I think a somewhat fair argument could be made that he might be the only option and anyone else would just weaken the team (even without actually 'trying things out')

So the other LW options are Komo, JVR and Marleau - and yes I'm excluding Leivo because we all know he's only getting in to replace another offensive minded player (eg. JVR), he does not bring the PK skills of a Hyman, Komo etc.

Komo - Komo in my opinion right now is worse then Hyman offensively and not sure he's much of an upgrade defensively. To me personally, this is an easy no.

JVR - No doubt offensively could be a dangerous line, would be nice if we 'tried' it. But here's the thing, then we have a line of Hyman-Bozak-Brown . There's no way any of you guys are going to convince me that's better for the team.

Marleau - This one is interesting. He's scoring a lot of goals right now........into empty nets. You could definitely argue that he still has a better ability to finish then Hyman, but no way I'm convinced at his age he would be as effective or even survive the wear and tear of playing on that line against top defensive players, because that's who will be matched up against Matthews-Nylander. Hyman keeps taking hits and never goes down, guy is tough and its underrated how fast he is.

So could the Leafs try one of the above 3 guys in his spot, sure, but I'm not convinced that our team would be significantly better as a result. Now if we're suggesting moving Kappy from RW to that spot, that's interesting, but again, Komo-Plek-Hyman would be a bruttle line offensively. Kappy on that 4th line keeps other teams honest.

I think when we find a better LW replacement for Hyman who will not take away from weakening any of the other lines, that's then a different story. But I'm not sure we have that right now.

We have 4 lines we can roll and that allows a lot of our guys to remain fresh and for the most part, injury free and that should benefit us come playoff time. So for now I'm willing to give benefit to our coaching staff, not blindly, but because I do see some logic.

I'll correct one sentence there since I'm sure someone is going to nitpick, my suggestion that Hyman never goes down is not fair to say, but my point is he's tough as hell and it was in comparison to Marleau who I don't see being able to handle the wear and tear of that line the way Hyman does.

Oh and before someone says Johnsson, he's played 2 NHL games. The Matthews line to start the season last year were mainly going up against other teams 2nd or 3rd defense pairings, in other words they were protected and grew into the dominant force they are now. Now other teams put their top players against that line, to think Johnsson would be ready for that before Matthews and Nylander were, is absurd.